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Old January 26, 2005, 04:23 PM   #1
Para Bellum
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Trunk Gun, Semiato Rem .223, Semiauto 12" Shotgun or Bot Action .308 Win?

I have the following scenario in mind:

I might get close to my home and find it attacked or a burgler etc on the ground. I am far more than 20yds away and need a gun to intervene. I wouldn't use my Glock 19 on such long distances. I want to keep a gun for this scenario in my trunk. What - and why would you prefer:

- a semiauto 12" shotgun (Winchester X2, pic below), or


- a semiauto .223 Rem. rifle (OA-15, pic below), or


- a bolt action .308 Win. rifle (Steyr Scout, pic below), or


- my personal favourite rifle, the Steyr SSG 04 (pic below), or


- another fine Austrian gun, the Steyr Elite?


Or do you have any other ideas/suggestions?

PS: By the way, how long is the striking distance of a shotgun (without endangering innocent bystanders)? Sorry if the question might sound stupid. I am a pistolero and have no clue about shotguns.
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Old January 26, 2005, 04:34 PM   #2
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Shotgun

For your plan B, use the shotgun. With buckshot, lethal to 50 yards easy, slugs 100 yards. Semi-auto beats bolt action for self-defense. Shotgun is easier to hit with, and even more menacing than a rifle because of the 12" hole at the end of the barrel. The shotgun will carry less far for misses or ricochets, therefore being a little safer. Easier to deal with multiple targets. Faster than using scopes for aiming. More understandable for the LEO who stops you for speeding and asks if you have any weapons in the car.

Plan A--just use your cell phone to call 911 if response time is good (2-3 minutes). No sense wading into trouble when there are professionals available to do it better and with a lot less risk to you.

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Old January 26, 2005, 04:36 PM   #3
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Kel Tec Su-16?
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Old January 26, 2005, 07:22 PM   #4
seb5
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So you're going to stop short as maggots are exiting your hacienda with your VCR and engage them as they are leaving? When you have the capability of calling and witnessing you're purposely putting yourself into a gunfight? I'm thinking a SAW and a good attorney.
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Old January 26, 2005, 07:36 PM   #5
43061
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If you are in Europe; as is listed for where you are, I'd say none of those weapons are going to work for you. Europeans don't see a need for self defense the way we do. Trust me on this one, I’m married to a German and spent ten years living there. She has loosened up a bit over the years, but she will always remain a Socialist tree hugger at heart.

If you are here in the states, you need to check your state statues. You would find yourself in some serious legal trouble if you acted the way you described. It is one thing to defend yourself and loved ones from inside your house; it’s an entirely different matter to shoot at someone trying to enter your home while you are outside.

You need a cell phone for the scenario you described. Call the police, keep an eye on the BG, and be a great witness. I realize it would be a lot more fun blazing away at the BG trying to take your stuff, but with the jury trying you based on what a reasonable person would do in the same circumstances, you’d lose.

On a positive note, those are some really nice picks you gave us. Any self respecting BG would be proud to be blown away with such nice armament.
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Old January 26, 2005, 08:20 PM   #6
Nnobby45
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Couple things,

A cylinder bore shotgun with 00 buck will normally keep it's nine pellets in a man's chest from 15 to 20 yds (if your aim is precise). Maybe six pellets to 25 yds, but don't count on it. A 00 buck pellet is lethal to far beyond the effective stopping range of the shotgun, and far more than 50 yds. Some authorities feel that 6 pellets to the chest is what constitutes an effective dose.

Two friends in Nevada Bell Mtce were working at night trying to get service restored to a resident when they found themselves staring at the pistol barrels of two Reno PD officers. Their Telephone trucks were parked down the street and not readily associated with the two "prowlers". To gain access to the right service drop, they'd entered through another back yard, and in the course of the evening had been in a number of yards, which they had exited and to which they returned a number of times. Should they have notified each resident? Perhaps, but it was dark, cold, and late and they wanted to get the job done. Make up your own lesson, but people exiting your backyard carrying stuff may not be what you imagine.
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Old January 26, 2005, 08:23 PM   #7
Edward429451
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Aw good question. There may be more appropriate scenarios that he could've thought up but lets be flexible with this one and stick to the issue instead of mucking up the thread with legal concerns! Legal concerns are valid, but that's not what he asked and is another thread. Let's kick the lawyer out and address problem #1, shall we?

Anyway, I'd go with an AR variant out of his choices. Semi auto, low recoil means fast followup shots, ammo's light & compact, iron sights are fine and its pretty darn good at pointablity, specially <100 like an urban enviroment. It might not penetrate like a 308 but but its better suited for the type of scenario he described than a SG (in my mind). The 223 is more precision than the SG which would be important.

Quote:
For your plan B, use the shotgun. With buckshot, lethal to 50 yards easy, slugs 100 yards. Semi-auto beats bolt action for self-defense. Shotgun is easier to hit with, and even more menacing than a rifle because of the 12" hole at the end of the barrel. The shotgun will carry less far for misses or ricochets, therefore being a little safer. Easier to deal with multiple targets. Faster than using scopes for aiming. More understandable for the LEO who stops you for speeding and asks if you have any weapons in the car.
I gotta disagree with parts of this, generally. Slugs, 100 yds? (you must be goood!!) and multiple targets too eh? That SG recoil is going to make a difference, even at only 50 yards. You can shoot an AR a lot faster & more precision. Heck, give an (amatuer) an AR and between 50-100 yds he could practically point shoot (fast) & really give em hell. What if his three buddies step out from around the house, armed?! Now that I think about it, no wonder cops are going to AR's! They're in this scenario a lot. (They're keeping them SG's around for going into structures, smart.) but a lot of action is on the street. The poodleshooter is actually a perfect setup for urban oh chit situations. An increased errant shot danger over the SG maybe but the light bullet is still more urban considerate than a 308, making it the best choice.

I rest my case.
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Old January 26, 2005, 09:33 PM   #8
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Para Bellum, . . .

I can understand the frustration of coming to your domicile and finding the bg's there cleaning you out, . . . but it is not a "deadly" situation for you until one of them attempts to attack you, . . . your property and posessions are in danger, . . . but at this point, your life and health are not.

Do a "good witness" phoning the cops and leave it there. You will have a much more peaceful life and attorneys won't make as much money off you.

Several years ago, a local farmer woke up to some teenagers stealing some of his stuff, and when he went out to see what was going on, . . . they came at him. His 9mm pistol he pulled out of his back pocket persuaded them to run to their car. He chased them and got close enough to put a couple rounds in a rear tire and stopped them cold, . . . holding them till the sheriff got there. They of course lied, saying he tried to kill them, . . . he was arrested, and taken away (so were the kids). It took several months and untold amounts of money until he was finally exhonerated and his pistol returned.

You don't need that trouble. And if burglars in your place are like burglars in our place, . . . they are thieves, . . . and usually cowards that know you are not supposed to shoot them, . . . and they will just run like the devil to get away.

In answer to your question though, . . . the distance of probable engagement should determine your weapon: 70 yards or less, I would go with the auto 12 gauge shotgun, but it would hold at least 6 rounds (my Beretta holds 7), it would have a shell holder on the stock, . . . mine is loaded 3 ea #4, 2 ea 00 buck, and 2 ea slugs. Beyond the 70 yards, . . . the .223 is going to be the superior weapon just for the reasons others above have mentioned (quick follow up shots, low recoil, like a Kodak camera, . . . "point & shoot"). I would get 4 ea 30 round magazines and tape them butt to butt and put on a halo sight. Leave the .308 in the shed for deer hunting or something else. It is not a weapon you want to engage multiple bg's with at the same time, unless you are committed to some serious, serious training issues and lots and lots of shooting with it. The recoil, follow up ability, restricted magazine capacity: all these are points favoring the bad guys over you. Two or three bg's with hand guns, . . . you and the .308, . . . you will probably lose that fight.

May God bless,
Dwight

PS: Those are some good looking weapons, . . .
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Old January 26, 2005, 09:58 PM   #9
too many choices!?
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ar pistol with 14 1/2inch barrel

loaded with 55grain fmj or soft poin bullets fast and frangible.....works well out to about 70 yds and won't be an over penetration issue....Of course get rid of the handle for a red dot and call it good....even with the muzzle flash/report you still have one hell of a trunk gun

PS Not totally sure on this but if you have a concealed carry license you have a pistol you can keep in your car out of site completely legally(again I think well it is a pistol )
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Old January 27, 2005, 12:36 AM   #10
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Oly Arms.

I dunno about your scenario, but as far as a truck gun goes, check out the Olympic Arms "Plinker".
This is their no frills basic AR-15. Shorter 16" barrel, standard A2 stock, and fixed carry handle.
Durable, simple, effective, and retails for something like $499.
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Old January 27, 2005, 03:00 AM   #11
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30-30.

Winchester or Marlin.
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Old January 27, 2005, 06:12 AM   #12
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Right! I'm not carrying ANY of those high-dollar guns in my truck. I would, however, reach for my marlin lever in 30-30 or 35 Rem.
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Old January 27, 2005, 09:10 AM   #13
Para Bellum
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Just needed an excuse

ok, ok, you guys got me on this one: The scenario ist not very likely, and honestly more of an excuse to buy a long gun, too. It still sounded more likely to me than: What if a riot breaks out? or: a civil war? (I am Austrian and live in Austria/Europe).

Still: What if I found the bad guys holding my wife at gunpoint and forcing her into a car etc. Then I would open fire immediately if I had a chance to (with a very precise rifle at the bad guys heads, I suppose...).

So, let's alter the scenario to: We come home and see bad guys pointing guns at our family or neighbors. That should be a situation damanding lethal action (I am an attorney by profession, by the way. Trained at the University of Vienna, Austria, and with a Master's Dergee from NYU School of law as well. The question therefore is purly tactical...)

stay safe.
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Old January 27, 2005, 09:45 AM   #14
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i wouldn't be toting and $800 ar15 around in the trunk and leaving it everywhere. i would opt for a .22 lr like a 10/22 for a couple hundred dollars.
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Old January 27, 2005, 10:44 AM   #15
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For a trunk gun, I see a few considerations to help keep it is practical in regared to expense, carry, and capabilility. If your trunk gun ends up like those of many folks, it will be neglected over time, maybe lose lubrication, maybe get dirty. Here in Texas during the summer, the oil can cook out of a trunk gun in its case in a couple of weeks as the temps inside the car and trunk will exceed 140F. For many semiauto rifles and semiauto inertia-based shotguns, this can be a real problem that has a strong potential to cause malfunctions.

My personal favorite is a 12 ga. shotgun, in my case, a Rem Marine Magnum 870. It is nickel plated and so I don't worry much about possible rust issues and it will pump cycle just fine with no lube and even quite dirty. In other words, it is great for a trunk gun because it isn't going to rust or fail to cycle just because it gets left in the trunk for many weeks at a time. However, it is pricey. With the threat of burglary, it is a $400 gun to lose. A blued $200 version will offset that cost quite a bit, but require more maintenance.

For a rifle with cycle problems, a good option is something like a lever action 30-30. This is a friend's choice for his behind the seat truck (not trunk) gun. It is compact, accurate, durable, time proven design, and can be made to cycle with no lube via the manual lever action. If not 30-30, calibers can be had from .22 to .45-70. These are also relatively inexpensive as compared to things like AR15s and Steyrs.
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Old January 27, 2005, 10:47 AM   #16
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That's a pretty good point about the 22LR. I did think about that but he didn't mention it as a choice. Besides, if a crises situation developed you wouldn't worry about scratching your beloved 800. AR and if you 'knew' you was going to have trouble, would you rather have an AR or a 10-22? Uh huh, thought so.

I suspect most people coddle their guns too much. It keeps them in better condition granted, but it's a hammer and shouldn't be stressed/obsessed over. JMO.

I doubt I'd open up on the bad guy if he was stuffing my wife into his car. Maybe on the vehicle so he couldn't get away with her, and then wait for a better shot where the wife wasn't so close to him.
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Old January 27, 2005, 11:04 AM   #17
Quickdraw Limpsalot
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My reasoning for a 30-30 lever isn't due to fear of scratching my gun... I just don't want to have to replace it if stolen. B'sides, I'd rather have my worn 30-30 (that I'm used to) in that situation than a fancy target rifle.
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Old January 27, 2005, 12:25 PM   #18
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I gotta agree with the old lever action. However, it can also be purchased in 357, 44, which are handgun calibers, but out of the longer rifle barrel pick up quite a bit of oomph!

The 30-30 might be a little over kill, but a good lever gun in a handgun caliber might just fill the bill. Plus you can carry a handgun in the same caliber!

Cost of the lever action's is quite a bit less...the problem with "gremlin" taking one's spouse and using the shotgun, you might find the pellets spread a little more than you would like. You would get the gremlin's but wify-poo is sure gonna be "ticked" if a pellet or two go through her...this brings us back to "control" and doing some surgical precision.
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Old January 27, 2005, 12:50 PM   #19
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Fancy target rifle? Oohhkay if you say so.Just kdding, but I don't look at them that way. But then again, I didn't hook up the sat link, gps, cpu or coffee pot to mine. Just a plainjane 20"er. I laugh at my friend who has the same rifle and is slowly adding all the doo dads to it and talks at length about how much more accurate it is and going to be than mine. I know some guys build them up to be target rifles but I think it detracts form the original intended purpose and versatility by making it more special purpose. I could see maybe putting a red dot on one. I can also see where a 30-30 that you're practiced up with would be more preferable than an AR too.

My friend has so much more into his AR than me and still can't outshoot me with mine. He gets ****** but hides it well. I'm not even good as compared to some guys. No training, competition...just a mediocre shooter / sometimes hunter. Drives him nuts. I think he likes to jerk the trigger.
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Old January 27, 2005, 02:15 PM   #20
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While there is merit in thinking about taking care of a weapon, . . . using one you fully trust, . . . not wanting to get ripped more than necessary by the burglar, . . . etc.: I think some of the urgency or threat level is being overlooked by some of the responses to this scenario.

If it is a hostage/kidnapping/terrorist situation: a Ruger 10/22 would probably be better than a sharp stick, . . . but just barely. Ditto for a lever action 30-30, which would probably have been good for Wyatt and Doc, . . . but will not do for Abdul and Muehammered.

Any modern hostage/kidnapping/terrorist situation one is likely to encounter will be done by your bad luck and their bad planning. You will have just happened upon their escapade, . . . as they will fully have planned for no one to see them. They will also most likely be armed with at least HC 9mm if not UZI's or something of that level. Most kidnapping/terrorist situations by their definition will be done by multiple bg's.

You will be faced with a few precious seconds, . . . and a decision to act quickly and effectively. Again, the distance you anticipate such an encounter would determine the trunk gun: auto shotgun or main battle rifle.

Plinkers, standard hunting rifles, etc. are not up to the needs of this type of situation. This must be decided on long beforehand, . . . and it needs to be a good decision. Don't forget ammo, . . . don't forget to rotate that ammo if it sits in the trunk of a vehicle in long periods of inclement weather. Don't forget to practice with that weapon until you and it are one.

Your tactics must be to delay their departure at least, . . . shoot out the tires on their vehicles. Not being a pro negotiator, . . . don't negotiate. You have very little chance of ever seeing your loved one again if you lose sight of them now. Keep them in sight, . . . if a shot presents itself to a bg: take it.

Do not threaten, . . . ACT. A couple of shots in their direction (even if designed to closely miss them) will help them understand you are not playing, you are serious, . . . it will not give you the upper hand, but it will let them know you are not afraid to deal when your turn comes.

Get the LEO's on the way to your place, . . .

Do not stay in one position, . . . withdraw and re-appear somewhere else. If you know the land layout well enough, try encircling or flanking their positions. They will have one of their guys looking to take you out, and if you stay in one position, he/she will work their way to you and you will no longer be effective, if even alive.

Keep an eye on their main escape route, and try to always be in a position to stop that escape. Is there another route? Can you watch both, . . . if so you should.

A hostage situation is a tough situation whether you are alone, . . . or have a full regiment behind you. Just remember that right now, . . . at this moment, . . . you are the hostage's only hope. If they are taken away, . . . your percentage chance of seeing them again becomes very, very small.

May God bless,
Dwight
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Old January 27, 2005, 04:56 PM   #21
Quickdraw Limpsalot
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Uhh.. ok. Maybe I should toss that 30-30 and keep a Minigun behind the seat in case I have to go all Ah-nold on 'em, right?

Hopefully If I'm in THAT situation, I'll be smart enough to realize that I'm outgunned with a Browning Buckmark .22 OR a minigun and I'll need some help.
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Old January 27, 2005, 05:06 PM   #22
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how often do you find yourself coming home guns a blazing? the answer is never so the .22 would be more than enough in my book
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Old January 27, 2005, 05:13 PM   #23
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Dwight reminds us to check the ammo in whatever it is you carry in the trunk. I keep a loaded 12 gauge in my patrol car and even though I shoot it quite regularly I have had shot shells deformed in rather short periods of time because they are under constant pressure from the magazine spring. This past week I was reminded of the need to replace the shells when I was unloading it by pumping the shells through the gun. The fourth shell stuck in the chamber because its diameter had been effected by the before mentioned spring pressure. I was fortunate that I hadn’t needed to use it during the thirty minutes prior to my unloading it on a felony drug bust.
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Old January 27, 2005, 07:40 PM   #24
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I don't have a trunk on my F-100, but I do have an SKS often behind the seat. Cheap enough that its loss would make me cry, but very effective.
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Old January 27, 2005, 08:47 PM   #25
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Quote:
how often do you find yourself coming home guns a blazing? the answer is never so the .22 would be more than enough in my book
Do you only buy minimum coverage insurance policies knowing that you'll probably never need it? I don't. I buy policies for the worstcase scenarios (within reason). You're probably right, don't get me wrong but nowadays if something happens...more & more its over the top with multiple bg's, armor sometimes and a wide array of modern weaponry. I think that makes a 223 a compromise of sorts in my book.

I got caught with my pants down once with a 22. My new 10/22 took it up small gaming with no other guns and one 10 rnd mag to try it out. Almost never see anything besides deer & rabbits, so why lug more steel than necessary? I was standing still waiting for a squirrel to show himself and about 20 mins went by, I knew he was there and wanted to bag him so stood still. Suddenly a twig snapped and I pivoted my head to see three mtn lions at 20 ft. A momma and two yearlings. We scared each other and she let out a scream that left quite the impression on me. I never felt so undergunned in my life. Scared the pee out of me and I haven't made the same mistake again.
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