The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 11, 2005, 07:23 PM   #1
CanoeCrasher
Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 49
Another hypothetical situation

Part of this situation is that you momentarily lost situational awareness or were forced to ignore it. It would seem that, in the real world, it can happen that you walk into dark alleys, into shadows, etc and can not always find a way around...

You are walking with a young child who is related to you in a darkened, deserted parking deck. You dont like it, you start to see movement and people on the periphery, and suddenly the child sees them, too, gets scared, and starts running.

With no other options, you give chase. You hear multiple pairs of feet pick up the pace behind you.

The child, thinking as children do, finds his/her way into a nice tactically useless corner. Think 14 foot concrete walls meeting above a concrete floor. You get to the child, and turn to assess the situation.

There are multiple BGs, say 4, brandishing knives, bats, etc. They have stopped running, and are slowly approaching spread out to cover your escape routes.

You are armed with whatever you would have. You knew you were going to have to go into a parking garage alone, at night, but you did not expect it to empty of other people so quickly. So no hidden shotguns, but you could have multiple handguns.

Here is the dilemma: They do not know you are armed, but there are many of them. If you wait until they are 7 yards away, you could not possibly get them all. If you start shooting when they are still 50 feet away, is it justified?

Would you stand in the corner, between the young-un and the BGs, and shoot? Or would you pick him/her up (compromising your ability to shoot somewhat) and try to run through one BG, possibly shooting him in the process? Or would you try something else?

Would it be different if they were not brandishing weaponry? How?

This is the end result of my general wondering about hazy encounters. Ones where the threat to life and limb are not immediately added, but slowly build up. (Like in the movies, admitedly)
CanoeCrasher is offline  
Old January 11, 2005, 07:47 PM   #2
MCIWS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 145
Well, what would you do? I have not been in a situation such as this, but I know it helps to talk about it and plan in your head. If you tell yourself over and over that you will react a certain way when it happens, than you are probably more likely to react that way if it does happen.
I think I would back the child into the corner so he could not run. Then I would bring the pistol into plain view at the alert position (muzzle to the dirt at 45 degrees with both hands on pistol). Next, I would give loud verbal commands for the BGs to stop advancing. If they do not, I would escalate my level of force. 21 feet is considered the MINIMUM safe distance for a threat with a knife. Multiple men, to me, makes 50 feet too close.
If they are brandishing weapons like you say, I would not hesitate draw my sidearm for one second!
MCIWS is offline  
Old January 11, 2005, 08:00 PM   #3
goosevr1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 104
Quote:
Here is the dilemma: They do not know you are armed, but there are many of them. If you wait until they are 7 yards away, you could not possibly get them all. If you start shooting when they are still 50 feet away, is it justified?
With 4 potential BG's approaching, cutting off all viable exit points and brandishing, I would consider that grounds to use lethal force even from 50 feet away. Sounds like there's clearly no where else to go; the opportunity (being outnumbered) and their intent (brandishing) are both present. If I were in this situation, I would most likely verbally command them to cease their advance and draw/fire if they don't comply.


Quote:
Would you stand in the corner, between the young-un and the BGs, and shoot? Or would you pick him/her up (compromising your ability to shoot somewhat) and try to run through one BG, possibly shooting him in the process? Or would you try something else?
Between the young-un and the BG's. Engage closest threats first.


Quote:
Would it be different if they were not brandishing weaponry? How?
Not too much different if they weren't brandishing. They still have intent and opportunity if they are advancing to surround me. Within that distance being outnumbered by that ratio still justifies lethal force, at least in PA.

Hope it helps.
goosevr1 is offline  
Old January 11, 2005, 08:35 PM   #4
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,566
Brandishing or no brandishing, that kids safety would be the only thing on my mind, especially if the bg's were all guys and the child is a girl.

Four individuals spreading out to cut off my movement, . . . especially if I am in a blind corner/alley/etc., . . . spells life threatening situation in a New York minute.

Their actions have been far more than enough discussion, . . . it is time for action or I am going to be hurt.

I'm in a corner, putting the child behind me, I'm pulling that weapon, and if doing so was not enough warning/threat/information for the bg's, the first round out the muzzle will let them know without a doubt what my intent is. That round will come out just as soon as I lock onto the nearest one.

Allowing any of them within 20 feet (in a corner, no escape, . . . nahhhhhh!).

Unholster and shoot, . . . let the LEO and DA worry about the legalities. My life and my child's life were threatened, . . . open and shut from my perspective.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old January 11, 2005, 09:50 PM   #5
Derius_T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
I would back into the corner as far as I could, keeping the child trapped behind me. If they are advancing and trying to cut off my escape, flanking, then their intent is clear. With or without weapons. I warn them to stop, draw, aquire target, and fire. Repeat as needed and curse myself for only having one clip.......

(gotta remedy that soon for my ccw weapon)
Derius_T is offline  
Old January 11, 2005, 10:07 PM   #6
seb5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 477
I think anybody could reasonably articulate a threat to thier person or the little one with them. It's time to test the justice system.
seb5 is offline  
Old January 11, 2005, 10:11 PM   #7
abelew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 778
Cornered, with weapon wielding BGs.....hmm, sounds like a defencible self defence situation to me, I would pull it out, declare that I will shoot them, and if they approach any farther, I will start shooting, if they approach any farther, Id shoot one of them once, then see what they did, I would expect that they would scatter, but if they didnt, I would shoot till I ran out, or the threat was gone. If you aren't carrying enough rounds, then thats your fault. I have found that a glock 22 with +2 extension carrys 17 in mag, 1 in chamber. Multiple threats without weapons in same situation would also be justifiable for drawing and shooting, because there is treat of grevious bodily harm because of the number of them, they would easily overpower you, and could kill you with bare hands. Also, if you can conceal a gun, magazines are smaller than the gun is, and I dont see why you couldnt carry spares. This depends on where you live, but I wouldnt be cought dead in a dark ally at night, no matter what the reason, except to chase after a loved one who should have been told to stay with me at all times.

Course, Im 6'3" and 215lb, so I can get away with the big gun
__________________
"Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence."
~ Mohatma Gandhi
abelew is offline  
Old January 11, 2005, 10:30 PM   #8
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,101
Quote:
There are multiple BGs, say 4, brandishing knives, bats, etc. They have stopped running, and are slowly approaching spread out to cover your escape routes.
You could always start snapping your fingers and singing "When you're a Jet you're a Jet...."
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old January 11, 2005, 10:43 PM   #9
Hardtarget
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: Nashville, Tn.
Posts: 683
I live in Nash.,Tn. Over the last five years there have been three men beaten to death ...bare hand beaten to death. In your garage situation, I'm shooting. If they kill me its because I'm shooting real bad that night. This is not a position I'd ever want to be caught in!
Mark
__________________
...even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.
Hardtarget is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 12:14 AM   #10
Walter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2004
Location: North Texas
Posts: 636
I read your premise...

...and I imagined that scenario with me and my grandson. It made me
very uncomfortable.

To answer the questions the way you asked, Here goes:
When the kid starts running, I run after him, catch him, and keep
him beside me. I don't think he could run fast enough to completely get away from me. I don't think.

When I hear and feel the bad guys approaching, I break out the gun,
make a QUICK evaluation of the situation, and if I feel threatened,
I shoot a "Bad Guy" in the gut. No talk, no 'warning', no B.S.
Just "BOOM"!

Carrying a concealed weapon is a huge responsibility, and I certainly don't take it lightly. But if I have any kind of clue that a child's life may be in
danger, and I may be able to help, that gun comes out post-haste,
people get shot, if necessary, consequences be damned.

In short, I'll do what I think is right and take my chances with a jury.
If I live through the shoot-out.
Walter is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 12:56 AM   #11
JSandi
Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Nashijuana, TN
Posts: 71
4 bad guys, bats, knives etc… 50 feet and closing in a combat spread

There would be one verbal command to stop then lots of noise followed by at minimum one to two deceased bad guys.
JSandi is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 04:23 AM   #12
LAK
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2002
Posts: 2,251
Trying to run away would definately be a mistake, even if you did not have the child with you. Even if they were not displaying weapons, one or another might produce one at some moment.

In this particular scenario I would remain in your "corner". Instruct the child to stay put, and reassure him or her as far as possible. At 50 feet, four people armed, acting in the way you describe with impact weapons and knives, are already too close.

A low ready would be in order with a loud and clear command to stop. I might repeat this once if they continued to advance slowly. If this was ignored a presentation would be next with the sights on the closest target. At about 30 feet the closest armed threat would be told, "Stop, or you are first". And I would not bluff.

If none of the subjects displayed weapons I would do exactly the same. Four average males are certainly capable of beating someone to death, and you can not wait until the beating starts to find out if that might be the case.
LAK is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 09:59 AM   #13
ahenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,764
To me this is an easy one; intent, means, and ability are right there staring you in the face.

The child gets shoved down into the corner and I take a crouched position in front of him/her (to better block anything coming his/her way). Draw and aim in and give one command to stop, drop what’s in their hands and get on the ground. Chances are that they run away and because of the child, I’d have to let them go. If they don’t, then I start shooting, working from the side to give the kid a better chance to run away in case I don’t get them all. This is an open and shut scenario and no jury in the world would convict you of anything. Shoot, I doubt there is a DA that would even charge you.
__________________
Doing what you've done, gets you what you've got.
ahenry is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 12:30 PM   #14
DarkKnight01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2004
Posts: 173
as others have stated... one verbal command to halt their advance and flee if they dont then the shooting begins... and i would start with the closest target and work my way from there... once their on the ground and wiggling they may suffer follow up shots as wiggling could mean their reaching for a sidearm themselves... id rather just have my side of the story on the report....

and folks ALWAYS carry extra magazines... 1 is good 2 is better...
__________________
MOLON LABE!!
DarkKnight01 is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 01:25 PM   #15
CanoeCrasher
Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 49
Wheelguns

Well, the consensus seems to be unanimous. There is a bit of differing opinions between warning yells, warning shots, and just shooting.

Thank you all for the info.

However, another wrinkle. Many CCW holders choose to carry revolvers. While the relative merits of this style versus a semiautomatic have been debated many times, what would be the appropriate action for someone with 5 or 6 rounds (plus speedloaders, but those take some time, yes?) ready? Would it be Woo-style, with revolver in one hand, and the BUG (another revolver? A small semiauto?) in the other? Would you shoot each BG once, or just shoot one or two of them until they drop?

CC
CanoeCrasher is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 02:36 PM   #16
DarkKnight01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2004
Posts: 173
if i carried a wheel gun i would shoot the closest ones until they drop and stop wiggling... 2-3 rounds each. IF i ran out of ammo and the others were still approaching which seems highly unlikely..... i would resort to other tactics and begin a different sequence of combat... perhaps picking up one of the weapons that the once alive attackers were carrying... or maybe a folding blade can of mace etc.... and fight until i was the victor or i was dead... by this time hopefully the child will have ran as fast as he/she can to safety of somekind....

but this is why i dont carry a wheelgun =) i love them dont get me wrong... their great for target shooting and such.. and theres nothing quite like the feel of a super red hawk spitting out some hot .44 mags but the only use i find for a wheelgun as far as CCW is for a BUG. which would probably be a lightweight 5 shot .38 or something similar so long as its nice and small...
__________________
MOLON LABE!!
DarkKnight01 is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 07:06 PM   #17
43061
Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 45
One thing I see that has not been mentioned is the fact that I have a handgun. That still makes this a gunfight and four BGs at that distance with or without any weapons makes me wonder what happens to me and the little one IF they get close enough to get it away from me.

Seven yards with one armed person is dangerous enough. I would want to start loud verbal commands for them to stop before they get that close. Regardless, I'm going to shoot first and answer questions later.

I carry a GLOCK 23 off duty. Worse case, I would have 10 rounds to use and that would be barely enough for this situation IF everything went my way. If not, the first two are going to be DOA, the third guy is going to have a couple in him to think about, but number four bothers me. I’ve engaged three targets during training several times and do okay (keep in mind they aren’t running at me either).

Wait a minute, I got the only three people in the building to attack me from seven yards and I believe the first two would be DOA, but number three was so close each time that I could hardly swing my weapon in his direction.

There’s going to be a horrible fight at that point and it’s going to take real determination to win it. Having my daughter behind me is going to have a motivating affect on the positive, dominate, mental attitude I would need in this situation.

Anyway, I agree with the person that said that working through these things in our head increases our ability to survive them and thank you for giving me that chance today.
43061 is offline  
Old January 12, 2005, 07:17 PM   #18
keens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2004
Posts: 446
I agree with all of the above, but let me point out something that happened to me that I would have told you would not have. I do practice with my carry weapon...even shot some IPSC courses weekly for a while...so I can shoot accuratly under a little stress...But a buddy one time who is a training officer allowed me the privilage of going through some F.A.T.S. training...just for the fun of it. Well, it is in a dark room, and I was faced with various situations...some of which messed with my mind...shoot or not? As I progressed (he started out easy and I was "doing fine taking out the perps)...then it got harder...he was raising his voice, making me nervous...I was sweating...I walked up to a vehicle in one scene and guy popped out of the trunk of the car with a shotgun...I shot six times at about 10 yards and missed evry shot...I was dead. The point is that when I was pretty scared, (you really get into this with the big screen and all the souind etc.) I could not shoot accuratly...I need to practice more...maybe we all do.
__________________
Speak the truth in love, for truth without love is legalism, and love without truth is liberalism.
If you count ease and comfort more than character, you will never be who God meant you to be.
keens is offline  
Old January 14, 2005, 12:12 PM   #19
Hunter Rose
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2001
Location: 30 miles from Everywhere, right in the middle of Nowhere...
Posts: 718
I have to agree with Walter on this one. If I was alone, I would try to play my cards differently. But with a small child that I'm responsible for? The INSTANT I can verify (for myself) intent/means/ability, there are going to be dead bad guys...
Hunter Rose is offline  
Old January 15, 2005, 01:01 AM   #20
Wynterbourne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2004
Location: Bedford, TX
Posts: 292
Quote:
one verbal command to halt their advance
Man, I am SO glad I live in Texas. In Texas the 'verbal command' is the sound of the safety coming off. Anything beyond that is just a courtesy.

In all seriousness, in a situation protecting a child, with multiple armed assailants, the weapon is getting drawn and pointed as soon as the threat is noted. The child is getting shoved into the corner behind me, with my body providing as much of a shield as possible. If another step is taken, the first 15 rounds are flying.

To Hades with waiting until they're within 7 yards. If the threat is noted at 50 feet, the shooting is starting when they cross 49.

Quote:
Would you shoot each BG once, or just shoot one or two of them until they drop?
If they're still moving, they're still a threat. I don't know about you, but unless I'm being very weight conscious that day, I'm carrying enough ammo to put 11 into every one of them. Of course, 15 rounds of that's going to be FMJ, so that'd probably be saved in case they have buddies.
__________________
They got mine once. Never again. Molon Labe!

"You can say ‘stop’ or ‘alto’ or use any other word you think will work, but I’ve found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone’s head is pretty much the universal language." - Clint Smith

9mm. Because no matter how you try to rationalize it, .45 ACP is still for people trying to compensate for -something-.
Wynterbourne is offline  
Old January 15, 2005, 01:42 AM   #21
riverkeeper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2004
Location: Tacoma, Washington
Posts: 214
4 guys chased you with weapons and are closing in..

and cutting off retreat?
Draw and Aim now! BTN (between the nipples) of the nearest or one with most immediately dangerous weapon.
While drawing. Firmly loudly 'Stop Now'
Quickly and firmly and loudly 'Leave that way Now' (Pointing or head nod) To give you a safer direction to exit and firmly and confidently take command of the situation.

At the sight of the handgun 999 times out of a 1000 they will immediately stop and leave.

Failure to stop ... immediately light up the nearest or perceived most dangerous one quickly followed by the others who did not comply. Second helpings as appropriate.

At 50 ft, IMHO, the number of perps, their behavior, the secluded location and their weapons negates any serious consideration of the 21 ft so called rule. If all 4 charged, you would be lucky to get more than 2 before they contacted you.

Same deal with or without the child present. The kid is potentially a fatal distraction for you -- stay 100% with the situation.
__________________
"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." -- Bertrand de Jouvenel ........ 'All the wooly-headed thinking explains the happy howling.' -- r

Last edited by riverkeeper; January 15, 2005 at 02:31 AM.
riverkeeper is offline  
Old January 15, 2005, 08:09 AM   #22
abelew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 778
I agree, the 21 foot rule is about 1 gun with a knife. Not 4 guys. You would feasable need 84 feet if you followed this rule, and tacked on 21 feet per guy.
__________________
"Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence."
~ Mohatma Gandhi
abelew is offline  
Old January 15, 2005, 09:34 AM   #23
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,566
Canoecrasher opined, . . . "Many CCW holders choose to carry revolvers".

Although there is a relatively small chance any of us will ever be in any shoot out, . . . this is the type of scenario that is becoming all too common. Very few weeks go by that we don't see where 2, 3, 4 or more assailants take down one victim, . . . usually with deadly results.

In total preference, I would any day prefer a blued 4 inch Python. Trouble is, it won't take care of this situation like my 1911 with an 8 shot mag and one in the tube. Six rounds is bare minimum for 4 perps, . . . 9 is a whole lot better, . . . and two more 8 round mags, . . . makes the scenario better for me, at least IMHO.

Say, Winterbourne, I like your verbal command in this scenario. DA or no DA, it would go down like that in Ohio for me also, . . . I can't hardly walk and chew gum at the same time, . . . shooting and commanding probably won't work either.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old January 15, 2005, 10:31 AM   #24
mvpel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2000
Location: Merrimack, NH
Posts: 1,847
I normally carry 10+1 and 13 spare for my Glock 30, and have ever since a friend told me about the four guys who jumped out of a car and started towards her while she was out jogging.
__________________
Not a blacksmith could be found in the whole land of Israel, because the Philistines had said, "Otherwise the Hebrews will make swords or spears!"
1 Samuel 13:19
mvpel is offline  
Old April 4, 2005, 06:06 AM   #25
univtxattorney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2005
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 103
Hilarious

Quote:
You could always start snapping your fingers and singing "When you're a Jet you're a Jet...."
Thanks for bringing some humor to a terrifying situation...
univtxattorney is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13330 seconds with 7 queries