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Old December 31, 2004, 11:09 AM   #51
Wynterbourne
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I find myself agreeing with 520 and Frank.

I do feel that the laws regarding the punishment of violent crime are sadly lacking in this country. I do feel that something should be done to protect society, and to remove a large portion of the criminal element from society. However, actively removing those individuals from society is not the reason to carry a weapon.

I carry a weapon to protect not only my own life, but the lives of those around me. I do not own a weapon to be a hero. I do not own a weapon so I can play the part of an action movie character. I do not carry a weapon to enforce 'swift punishment'.

As long as there is no clear and immediate threat to health and safety, the weapon stays holstered, pure and simple.

Now, if the situation shifts where there is an immediate threat to someone's safety, that's the time to make a move. If you feel that unless you act, there is an extremely high probability that someone will die, consider your options. If you are confident of your ability to drop the individual, with minimal risk to the safety of those around you, and you have an absolutely clear shot, take it.

If taking the shot puts more people at risk, then keep that sucker holstered.
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9mm. Because no matter how you try to rationalize it, .45 ACP is still for people trying to compensate for -something-.
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Old December 31, 2004, 10:06 PM   #52
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I'd wait until shots were fired or until it was painfully obvious (to everyone) that someone was about to be injured or killed. I would make sure that I was in a situation where a no-bill from the grand jury was a cake-walk. With my luck, if I acted sooner, under the ski mask it would be some 15 yr old kid with a mail order replica gun.

Lots of folks know I'm "into" guns. I would be a big target for a DA wanting to make a case against someone who was "just waiting for a chance to shoot someone." I shudder to think what the (totally legal) contents of my gun safe would look like spread out in a courtroom.
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Old January 1, 2005, 05:33 PM   #53
mvpel
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I'd wait until shots were fired or until it was painfully obvious (to everyone) that someone was about to be injured or killed. I would make sure that I was in a situation where a no-bill from the grand jury was a cake-walk. With my luck, if I acted sooner, under the ski mask it would be some 15 yr old kid with a mail order replica gun.
A kid in a ski mask with a replica gun has a clear intent of making others fear for their lives.

Usually, putting someone in fear for their life makes them do what you want them to do. Other times, among a small percentage of people in nearly all the states, putting someone in fear for their life will get you injured or killed. If a 15-year-old kid is hard-core enough to go out making people fear for their lives, he's hard-core enough to take a bullet or two to center mass.

I wouldn't feel too bad about someone shooting him if at the moment they pulled the trigger they thought that it was a real gun, regardless of whether it turned out to be fake.
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Old January 1, 2005, 07:18 PM   #54
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A kid in a ski mask with a replica gun has a clear intent of making others fear for their lives.
Absolutely true!
Quote:
I wouldn't feel too bad about someone shooting him
Nor would I--but think of how it will play in front of a jury or in the headlines... A lot of CCW'ers think they'll be hailed as a hero after such an incident. Gun owners who think that way have forgotten who writes the headlines and what the press thinks about guns.

It's true that I have a duty to society--but I have a "prior commitment" to my family and therefore to myself.
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Old January 2, 2005, 11:22 PM   #55
Psalm 144:1
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I`m new to the forum,but do have my opinions concerning this scenario. My CCW package is intended for SELF defense. If "self" is not being threatened, then there is no need to take any defensive measures other than removing myself from the scene. If I can do this discreetly enough,my cell phone and descriptive abilities are the best tools I have to render my duty to society. In any event,my priorities will first be the safeguarding of my family(if we happen to be out together when we happen upon or otherwise become involved in a similar situation)or secondly retreating myself by the most efficient route if I happen to be alone. When retreat becomes impossible,the entire dynamics of the situation change dramatically for me and mine and it becomes quite possible that I just might wind up saving the lives of some others by engaging in the battle to preserve my own.
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Old January 2, 2005, 11:44 PM   #56
FrostyBoy
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Fwiw

FWIW guys, the bank scenario may be the worst place to draw down on the tango. As a bank employee, I am trained in the three C's -- Comply, Comply, Comply!!! Unfortunately, I am not allowed to act. I have to do what the tango says and if safely possible, sound the alarm, usually after the perp leaves. At my branch in particular, we have no security on site. We have to hope and pray that the PD are nearby. They usually are, being that they have a <3 minute response time.

Now, that being said, if I were in the lobby as a customer, my first priority would be to get as much of a description as possible. My second priority is to find the nearest exit or piece of cover. If this is a quiet robbery where noone is the wiser except me, the teller, and the tango, then I will try to nonchalantly notify the nearest bank employee who should have the magic button at his or her desk.

A few LEO have told me that most bank robberies are for drug money. Rarely will you see any on the scope and scale of the LA shootout or what recently happened in Ireland. The guy will come in, approach the teller, and get out as quickly as possible. If he draws attention to himself, then the game is up and he is out the money. The two bank robberies that I have been in are just the same way. Before I or anyone else knew what happened, the robber was out the door. The first time, I made the mistake of trailing after the yutz just to get a description and license plate. The second time, the perp walked out the door and stopped behind the building to shed his disguise and toy gun. What he didn't realize was that he was right outside the lobby and everyone could see him through the mirrored glass.

Most robberies in a true bank lobby are done during the early morning hours. Right at opening when most of us are preoccupied with getting the coffee and answering our emails. I honestly didn't pay attention like I usually do the first time. I would have hit the button if I had seen something amiss. A little hint, if you want to live out this scenario, start doing your banking when the branch opens up.

The grocery store banks are the worst. These are usually hit by dime store thugs just trying to get some quick and dirty cash. You couldn't pay me enough to work in one of those banks. Thank Gawd my bank doesn't operate any. These are the guys who will come in and make noise. They are the most violent offenders. They usually will pistol whip someone to comply and show force. Way too much goin on in the store to attempt to stop the guys here.

Mini marts and liquor stores are not sound scenarios either. These are ofttimes violent robberies that occur and usually end up with someone (i.e. the clerk) getting shot and killed. Forget the roscoe, bring a street howitzer with you when you shop here. Nothing short of a 12 ga. will stop whatever hopped up drugged out maniac intent on robbing this place of business.

I think the greatest thing I learned in CHL class is being aware of my surroundings. I don't ever wish to try and shoot it out with an armed adversary in a storefront situation. The chance is too great that something will go wrong. Mr. Murphy will always find a way to foul things up.

IF AND ONLY IF the threat of imminent harm to myself and others is present, I will expend all the ammunition I have to stop the guy. I hope I never have to. Like some of you have said earlier, I have a wife to go home to as well.
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Old January 3, 2005, 12:44 AM   #57
vitesse9
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I may go against the grain here,

but I'm going to say: stay calm, watch the situation like a hawk, get into a ready position WITHOUT letting your body language tip the robber that you are a potential threat, and hope for the best. After scanning the area to make sure that he has no accomplices, I'd watch that tigger finger real closely. If he makes any movement that would indicate he intends to fire, or if he is clearly acting negilgently with the gun as to cause a accidental discharge, then I might act. But, if I think that the situation might end with the guy getting the $ and bolting without harming the clerk, I'm not about to start a shoot out that could get me or the clerk killed.

That plus the fact that, even if I do get the jump on the guy, I still have a lot of problems. I just wanted a gallon of milk, now I'm in a police interview room being asked all sorts of questions, the DA is investigating the situation to decide whether or not to file charges and my gun, which I worked a lot of hours to buy, is now sitting in an evidence bag for an indefinite amout of time.

I'm not a police officer and it's not my job to stop crime. I carry a gun to protect myself. Now, if I think that clerk is going to get hurt, then I'll act to save another human being. But if I think that that the only loss is going to be the money in the register, then that's 7-11's problem.

No heroics here.
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Old January 3, 2005, 03:05 AM   #58
BillCA
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The best course of action is difficult to decide without visually inspecting the scene. But presuming that a miss won't endanger the clerk or bystanders outside, the best course of action is to carefully observe the situation and take action only when or if it appears that someone will get hurt.

If I'm in the store with my wife I will want her to exit via the side/rear door if possible while I stay between her and the BG, again if possible. Otherwise we stay out of sight and quiet until he leaves.

One concern I have with many of the responses here is that one must consider the possibility of making a good COM shot and ... nothing happens to the BG except he's startled by the loud noise. Like the owner of my local liquor store who took 2 .38 rounds to the chest and one to the arm, the BG is too focused on "other matters" to realize he's been hit. Double tapping a BG in this scenario and having him whip around and try to empty a pistol at me as he flees the store is not my idea of a fun night.

If I did take action it would because I had to take action now. Thus I'd not shout any warnings at the BG. Fairness plays no part here as I presume he didn't send a prior notice of his robbery attempt.

I'm also amused by some comments people make about "taking cover". One should realize that in most convenience stores there is plenty of concealment but damn little cover. Items on shelves will likely not stop a bullet, nor will the thin fiberboard which usually acts as the divider.
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Old January 6, 2005, 08:20 AM   #59
abelew
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In my house, hes getting shot till he drops, when I get a good shot on him. Somewhere else, I am going to try to get away unnoticed and call on my cell phone. Im not going to get into any gun battles outside of my house, as the legal aspects are murkey. I would only shoot if I was cornered and nothing else could be done. Course, we have castle doctrine here, so it's my playing field in my house.
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Old January 6, 2005, 09:31 AM   #60
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First off, I doubt I'll be in line behind a robber. The first thing a robber will do is get in the back of the line, or come when it's less crowded. The second thing he will do is clear the immediate area around him.
Oh wow! I guess you've never seen the recorded video on TV where this exact scenario happened, except within a convenience store. It was a Discovery Channel special, or something similar. BG rolls up to register, points gun at teller, while the plain clothes officer is standing right behind him. He freaked (the cop). Immediate draw, stuck it to BG's head, and gave him the ultimatum. BG couldn't believe it! Dropped his weapon on the counter, and so it goes... In this incident the narration points out that often BG's get tunnel vision when doing their crime and are very unaware of their surroundings.

It's funny, because after watching that one video, I believe we have a much better chance of being confronted in a similar way, rather than a home invasion for instance.
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Old January 8, 2005, 11:34 PM   #61
Lazy D
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Angelsboy is right

Even as a LEO I am going to be the best witness ever. Unless he goes mental. Here's why. When on duty I am prepared for an armed encounter. I have a uniform, vest, radio, extra ammo, handcuffs, etc... When off duty I don't have all those tools to my disposal. If the guy goes off the edge, it's just a bad day to be an off duty officer in that bank. You have to take action.
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Old January 9, 2005, 12:36 PM   #62
NYC Drew
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What if I have my weapon in hand and the off duty / plainclothes cop in the bank thinks I'm part of the gang? Or the convienently located police sniper on the roof across the street?

In NY you have a duty to retreat (except in home). zIf he/she cannot see me, I'm getting the hell outta dodge.

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Old January 9, 2005, 04:31 PM   #63
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The parameters of the original scenario said:
"A person is holding a gun on a clerk".

While I appreciate the incredible caution and due diligence many are trying to express here, how this cannot be interpreted as an immediate threat to health and safety is beyond me.

Most BGs are not trained with proper weapons discipline or safety. His finger was probably on the trigger when he walked into the store.

If you are waiting for a sign, it will be the clerks brains splattered on the cigarette rack behind him.
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Old January 11, 2005, 08:05 AM   #64
Lazy D
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Risky Business

Man,.........If someone here thinks he is going to shoot a BG with a cock weapon, finger on the trigger, and pointed at someones head, you have been smokeing something. I'm am not trying to be a smart@$$, but in that scenario you would have to make a "Nonreflex Brain Stem" shot. Anything else and he can still pull the trigger and maybe even kill more than one. That is a difficult enough task to do with a sniper rifle, let alone an offduty / undercover handgun. I don't know of anyone who makes a holster for a Rem 700 pss. I guarantee you would be prosecuted for causing the death of the victim, either in court or in the media.

The only way I would ever attempt it is if I am standing right behind the guy and can make a contact shot to the back of the head.
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Old January 17, 2005, 04:27 PM   #65
MrBill
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I use to think about this type of situation. I decided that should it happen, I would do nothing..unless the guy shot the clerk..or someone else. He would have to initiate the violence(i mean actually hurting someone). Honestly, I dont know the clerk, I could probably care less about him/her. I would primarily be concerned about myself and any family/friends with me. They would be my first concern..if I thought he/they posed a danger to us..I would secure my family, as best as possible, if they became aware of us, I would initiate the offensive. I feel bad for the clerk in this scenario, but perhaps they should have been armed, not that would negate his predicament. I will not open myself for any liability for anyone I do not know. I gave this scenario great thought after walking into my usual stop/store immediately after an armed robbery(knife brandished). I had become friendly with the clerk, nice guy, we agreed on many things, etc...I would have taken the shot on that bad guy. If I'd had the chance...poor clerk's been robbed twice before. Said he wished he could someday fight back..not for the store/money, but for the fear they put into him. Damn shame.
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Old January 20, 2005, 12:12 PM   #66
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If the weapon isn't used, then, I would do absolutely nothing other than to make ready, draw, and conceal my own gun by my side.
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Old January 20, 2005, 05:06 PM   #67
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nobody knows

If we knew what we did in situations like these - we wouldn't all be so active in these forums.

I wish I would do the following: check wheter I had a very good chance to save the clerk from the threat, pull and aim very slowly and silent at the back or the side of the BGs head and then shoot well aimed untill the BG stops moving at all.

I also wish that I would only escalate things and open fire if my chances to end up holding the only gun fired were excellent.

I wish that I wouldn't end up regretting why I didn't save a shot clerk athough I could have - likewise - why I started a shooting that killed innocent bystanders.

Tough question. Being a lawyer the answer just is - "that depends"
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Old January 20, 2005, 05:46 PM   #68
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Quote:
... I wish I would do the following: check wheter I had a very good chance to save the clerk from the threat, pull and aim very slowly and silent at the back or the side of the BGs head and then shoot well aimed untill the BG stops moving at all.

I also wish that I would only escalate things and open fire if my chances to end up holding the only gun fired were excellent.

I wish that I wouldn't end up regretting why I didn't save a shot clerk athough I could have - likewise - why I started a shooting that killed innocent bystanders ...
Maybe English isn't your native language; and something has been lost in translation; but, I got 'a tell ya, that's some of the worst advice I've ever heard!

It might have passed muster 100 years ago in the old West; but it's positively antique in 20th century America.

PS: Besides, what happens if you do shoot the BG in the back of the head, miss the pons, and the BG reflexes, pulls the trigger, and shoots the clerk as a result of your shot?

Please DO spend more time in these forums!
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Old January 20, 2005, 10:17 PM   #69
infrared35
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As an LEO, I was surprised at the off-duty training I received. We were basically told that we are to be good witnesses, and not to interfere except in the most extreme cases. I know the agency has to limit its liability to a certain extent, but it was still surprising.
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Old January 22, 2005, 08:17 AM   #70
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Having reacted to violent threats against others before,

I can honestly say I don't know what I would do. It is always situational for me. I do care what happens to other people and I will engage; I know, not just `cause I'm saying it, but because I've done it . . . at least twice. Neither time involved the use of a weapon, though once the potential existed to escalate to that level (the other time, I was unarmed).

The scenario being discussed here is just too vague to know what to do for sure.

Do I think . . .

. . . citizens should stand up for and help one another? YES
. . . I should always draw my weapon at the first sign of trouble? NO!

Again, too many variables in this described scenario. Bottom line is that most people will never be trained up enough to handle every situation perfectly. We should just hope to God we are good enough and wise enough to do what needs to be done at the proper time.
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Old February 7, 2005, 04:10 PM   #71
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I can't do nothin' lest I be out of uniform.

I am a United States Marine and proud of it! But, as a member of the armed forces, I am barred from interfering/participating in any civilian law enforcement action. However if out of my MARPAT or dress attire, I feel as if I could offer a countermeasure to a potential or active BG.

Though, I'm sure that a uniformed Marine aiming a .45 at ones cranium and commanding said BG to drop his or her firearm might be more intimidating than a Police Officer or even a private citizen performing the same action. I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do.

As I stated before I mean no offense to anyone, I'm just sayin'. Also I've been thinking of reenlisting in the Corps and maybe retraining as a Designated Marksman or something like that. Going from being behind the 120mm on an M1 to being behind an M14 is a big switch huh?
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Old February 7, 2005, 04:32 PM   #72
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Old February 8, 2005, 12:03 AM   #73
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I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do.
Maybe in the old days, but I don't think any stereotype about all Marines being good shots holds true today...especially with a pistol....
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Old February 8, 2005, 12:20 AM   #74
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"Though, I'm sure that a uniformed Marine aiming a .45 at ones cranium and commanding said BG to drop his or her firearm might be more intimidating than a Police Officer or even a private citizen performing the same action."

Oh really, why would that be?


"I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do."

I was a marksmanship instructor for my company (Echo 2/6) when I was in the Corps, and shooting a rifle is alot different than shooting a handgun. The handgun course is ridicuously easy. Grunts handle and shoot their weapons often. Other MOS rarely shoot their carry weapons except for yearly quals.
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Old February 15, 2005, 05:18 PM   #75
DanV1317
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Shoot the bad guy. You are justified to use deadly force to stop severe bodily injury to another person. Who says the guy wont shoot the clerk, then come and looking for witnesses to shoot? Then it's a shootout. End it before it gets to that point and before the bad guy sees you. Dont miss. that would suck.
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