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Old December 26, 2004, 08:30 PM   #26
PsychoSword
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Too many variables, can't say what I'd do. You could have easy access to the BG or he could be behind a big display case. He could be pointing the gun at the clerk or hiding it under a coat.
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Old December 26, 2004, 08:44 PM   #27
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I think the hypothetical has you in line behind him...........
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Old December 26, 2004, 08:57 PM   #28
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I think the hypothetical has you in line behind him...........
Says there was a couple of people in front of me. Now if it's a line like the post office, there would be alot of crap in the way. Another bank is the same way.
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Old December 26, 2004, 09:22 PM   #29
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Jacob, . . .

Many are the forces that guide my life, . . . one being the Biblical admonition that "to whom much is given, much shall be required". I have been given the ability to decipher right from wrong, I have a 1911, I have a CCW, I am perhaps the clerk's only hope, period. That said -

IF: I see the gun, . . . and
I see real terror, fear, etc on the clerk, . . . and
I get a sense that this dirtbag will shoot at any provocation.

I have 8 each, 230 grain, FMJ, .45 ACP rounds that say the bad guy made a bad decision that is going to get worse for him, . . . just as soon as I unholster.

I will keep 25 to 30 feet between us if I can because I know my ability to hit him center mass at that distance, . . . and most perps I have known about are lucky to be able to tell muzzle from magazine. I will take the first shot, and if he happens to be looking the other way, . . . so be it.

Please understand I am not making light of this, . . . just a reality check. He will be in the sights as long as he does not telegraph an intention to harm the clerk. The instant I get the "harm" message, I will pull the trigger and I will not look back. That decision will have been made well, it will stand up.

He made the decision to rob, he made the decision to terrorize, he made the decision to make it apparent to me that he is just a trigger pull away from being a murderer. He will have to live with his decisions, . . .

On the other hand, if the gun stays pointed at the ceiling, . . . he can wish me a Happy New Year as he walks out, . . . and I will only be a good witness.

May God bless,
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Old December 26, 2004, 09:39 PM   #30
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Slinking away and "being a good witness" when you have the ability, the means, and the training to put an immediate end to an imminent deadly threat against the life of another means that you are shirking your solemn duty as a citizen of our society.
Solemn duty to society? What? To protect those folks who haven't taken the time or had the inclination to learn to protect themselves? I don't think so. I help save some poor schmuck behind the counter and I get sued by the family of the deceased, not the schmuck behind the counter. Why is it my duty to risk my life and livelihood for some guy who has bothered to take care of himself?

I haven't purchased guns, gotten training, and practiced so that I can go play super hero.
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Old December 26, 2004, 10:06 PM   #31
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Aw heck........There are no non-belligerents behind the BG (in line with him), and you are somewhat behind him
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Old December 26, 2004, 11:09 PM   #32
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You can only meet force with force

In a purfect world you would pull your gun and shoot him in the head, dead (the bad guy). But can you be sure you will kill the bad guy, will his reflexes cause his hand to tighten and the the poor man behind the counter is dead. He has a wife and 3 children at home, are you able to explane to them why there dady is dead.
A gun is a terrable responsibility, It can save a life by taking another, but it can also turn a simple robbery into a mass killing.
Your question is a good one with many answers. But the person that says "I'm going to pull my gunout and pop him in the head" is a person that probably souldnt be carring a gun.
What I would do is just stand there, and let things run there corse.
But if the bad guy started pulling the trigger, I would do everything in my power to see that no one got killed and then live with the results.
I have only pulled a gun on one person in my life, he had stollen my neighbors car. I caught him that night at a gas station and held him at gun point untill the poliece arived.
My neighbors son asked "Would you have shot him if he had took off running?"
My answer dissipointed him, " He was younger than me and in a lot better shape, I would have waved goodby."
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Old December 27, 2004, 12:37 AM   #33
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hypothetical

I assume I have a permit for the pistol. In the hypothetical am I an off duty law enforcement officer?.

Robber is likely to have people on watch and with get away vehicle- shooting robber may cause a fire fight and injure friendlies.

I agree with the comment about demeanor- if robber remains calm and your life or the life of the bank teller is not in danger you cannot legally shoot.

If you take action you become responsible for the consequences. Morally I would like to take out the bad dude, but law and morality haave very little to do with one another.


Get ready for the risk of escalation- if they do I agree with the centre of mass comment and be ready for multiple targets as anylook outs- who may not be readily apparent- become animated.
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Old December 27, 2004, 01:24 AM   #34
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Double Naught Spy wrote:

Quote:
Solemn duty to society? What? To protect those folks who haven't taken the time or had the inclination to learn to protect themselves? I don't think so. I help save some poor schmuck behind the counter and I get sued by the family of the deceased, not the schmuck behind the counter. Why is it my duty to risk my life and livelihood for some guy who has bothered to take care of himself?

I haven't purchased guns, gotten training, and practiced so that I can go play super hero.
I know this isn't going to change your mind, because people always think they are right, but it has to be said. Its this very 'out for me, screw everyone else' mentality that has made this society the cesspool that it is today. There are very few decent men that are willing to stand up for others as well as themselves. These are the very principles this country was founded on! No one has any respect, or a sense of morality, or ethics anymore. Its ME, ME, ME. People are selfish, self-serving, self-centered, and self-absorbed. Its like the doctor who lets the 85 year old man die, that he thinks in reality he could probably save, but the patients age and health give a good chance of death on the table, so the doctor does nothing...man
dies....he can't be sued......oh well.....he was 85 anyway.....

Anyone who can rationalize this type of thinking, maybe doesn't deserve to live in this country whos founding fathers believed exactly the opposite.....
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Old December 27, 2004, 01:24 AM   #35
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Sorry if I get a little heated over issues like these. It just makes me sick when I think about the degrading attitude in america today.....
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Old December 27, 2004, 05:48 AM   #36
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Its this very 'out for me, screw everyone else' mentality that has made this society the cesspool that it is today.
Didn't Charles Bronson say that in Deathwishes I-IX?
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Old December 27, 2004, 08:58 AM   #37
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I agree with the comment about demeanor- if robber remains calm and your life or the life of the bank teller is not in danger you cannot legally shoot.
If he has a gun out, the life of everyone who's not inside the bank vault is in danger. If he points it at someone, that person is a split-second away from suffering death or serious bodily injury.

The hypothetical wasn't about a typical robbery where a guy in sunglasses and a baseball cap slips a note to a teller who then slips him some money, remember.
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Old December 27, 2004, 10:03 AM   #38
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Didn't Charles Bronson say that in Deathwishes I-IX?
Dunno, never seen them. Must be good movies tho.
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Old December 27, 2004, 01:16 PM   #39
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clarification of scenario

Clarification: you are not in a check-out queue immediately next to the gun-pointing man. You are perhaps 10 to 20 feet away, maybe in the food aisles unnoticed by the BG who is near the register. Or perhaps you have come in after it was underway, and the door does not make noise. By no non-belligerents behind him, that means no bystanders in line with your potential shot. You have a clear shot. You are not wearing noisy kydex, either. Let us assume that you have done what every CCW holder should do, which is studying the state law relevant to use of force, and you have trained regularly with your firearm.
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Old December 27, 2004, 01:34 PM   #40
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Slinking away and "being a good witness" when you have the ability, the means, and the training to put an immediate end to an imminent deadly threat against the life of another means that you are shirking your solemn duty as a citizen of our society.
Solemn duty to WHAT society? If you are talking NYC, it's not even a society, its a zoo with criminal management and not enough keepers. If you are talking NY, NJ, parts of CA, perhaps MA and many other States whose attitides and practices I'm not aware of, you are talking about a society which DOES NOT WANT YOUR HELP. They think they know how to handle it, and you would be well advised to keep your nose out of it. Certain individuals might want your help now that they are in the situation (and many would not, and many more would sue your buttocks off if it didn't turn out just right), but they didn't want it bad enough to carry guns themselves, or to situate themselves in States that have a slightly more traditional American attitude. As for them, I say **** 'em. And the "society" they rode in on.

As for the dwindling number of States that are not risking the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, if I were located there, I would certainly do my duty, which is to definitively incapacitate without warning any armed robber holding a gun, IFF it were clear that I could do so safely. That's a big iff, and sometimes beyond being evaluated by someone close enough to terminate the activities of the BG who is showing. Did I mention backup in my first post? Think about it.
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Old December 27, 2004, 07:55 PM   #41
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Derius has the right idea, . . . glad we both live in the same state.

Yes, . . . if you are fortunate enough to have your own firearm, legally carrying, catch the act going down: you have a moral obligation to do all in your power to protect the lives and health of those innocents who cannot protect themselves.

Just for the record, most banks forbid their employees to be armed. Their standard line is: "Give em the cash, pull the bill trap if you can, slip in a dye pack if you can, but don't make waves, send em on their way, get a good description, don't exacerbate the situation". I know, I worked for a major Columbus bank for several years.

May God bless,
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Old December 28, 2004, 06:01 PM   #42
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If you are in a bank most likely you won't be pulling any sort of firearm unless you are carrying illegally anyways since in most cases it is against the law to carry a firearm inside a financial institution and most of them have many signs out front stating that.

In a store. It is honestly highly unlikely that you would get a clear line of fire at the BG if anyone is in front of you and the panic that ensues if the BG openly brandishes the weapon would only make that worse.

In all likelihood all you would accomplish is getting yourself or someone else sent to the hospital with either the BG's or your bullet in them especially if your shot misses or passes through the BG and into whatever is behind him, namely the clerk.

Now with that no doubt flame worthy response done. I would not clear leather if anyone was in the store because I would only further escilate the situation. I would instead be calling 911 on my cell phone or trying to get the other customers to cover as safely as possible using myself as a shield for them if needed. Once that was done if the BG was still there and I had a clear shot I would call out and order him to drop his weapon and if he so much as flinched in my direction he would be getting number 1 of 6 130 Grain .357 Hydra Shocks seeking to make a few sucking chest wounds in his hide.
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Old December 29, 2004, 10:23 AM   #43
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Quote from Wolfdog: "If you are in a bank most likely you won't be pulling any sort of firearm unless you are carrying illegally anyways since in most cases it is against the law to carry a firearm inside a financial institution and most of them have many signs out front stating that."


Don't know where you get this from, but you SURE don't live in Louisiana.
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Old December 29, 2004, 07:49 PM   #44
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Don't know where you get this from, but you SURE don't live in Louisiana

Yep.
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Old December 29, 2004, 09:46 PM   #45
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Well, I am disappointed by all of the "it's not my problem" attitudes in reply to this scenario. I think that the course taken has to be the one that is estimated to have the greatest probability of the innocent remaining physically unharmed. When someone points a gun at a person who is not threatening anyone, he has made it clear that he is willing to take innocent life. Robberies often turn into shootings. I do not know the statistical incidence of this; perhaps somebody out there has some data. I agree that a scan all around for an accomplice is important. If there is another present who might be an accomplice, then that raises the odds of escalation if a gun was pulled where the accomplice could see it. However, I do not think that an accomplice would rush in and make himself known if he saw the first man go down with a bullet to the brain from an unseen shooter. He would run like a rabbit. An attempted draw where an accomplice could see it would be dangerous, however. Now I wish to move past the matter of an accomplice.
I suppose there would be the possibility of the bad guy looking like the sort who is no threat, but that does not seem likely. Armed robbers are generally repeat offenders who are willing to kill, and he has demonstrated that he is willing to kill when he pointed the gun at the clerk. A way to end that threat would be to put a bullet into the center of his head, interrupting the CNS processing necessary to send a signal to the muscle that flexes his trigger finger. If there is nobody near the line of fire beyond him, which I have said there is not, then this should not be a risky shot. The clerk is not in line with him, which I tried to make clear. If necessary and possible, take a few steps to the side to align properly at a different angle. If a line of fire cannot be obtained which is free of the innocent, then the gun should remain holstered. Focus on the front sight, and stop the threat. Any warning such as "drop the gun or I'll shoot" raises the probability of the innocent getting hurt. I believe that the highest probability of the innocent remaining physically unharmed, in the scenario I described, is to silently draw the gun, assume a proper two handed grip, align the sights with the middle of his head, focus on the front sight, and squeeze one off without warning.
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Old December 30, 2004, 01:44 AM   #46
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When someone points a gun at a person who is not threatening anyone, he has made it clear that he is willing to take innocent life.
Unless you can read minds, you have no idea what someone is willing to do whether they're pointing a gun (real or fake) at someone or not.

Quote:
Robberies often turn into shootings. I do not know the statistical incidence of this; perhaps somebody out there has some data.
In the great majority of cases, robberies DON'T turn into shootings.....Which is why people who work in retail are generally forbidden to carry guns, and are instructed to give up the cash, and why it I'd rather be involved in a hold-up with with people who understand this, as opposed to people who are convinced they have a "moral obligation" to start shooting whenever they see a gun in order to save the day.
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Old December 30, 2004, 12:01 PM   #47
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Sir Robert Peel, considered to be the Father of modern policing, noted that there is a historic tradition "that the police are the public and that the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen, in the interests of community welfare and existence."

Slinking away and "being a good witness" when you have the ability, the means, and the training to put an immediate end to an imminent deadly threat against the life of another means that you are shirking your solemn duty as a citizen of our society.
Sir Robert Peel died 150 years ago. Firearms were not prevalent in crimes in England then. What firearms there were fired one or two shots. Most incidents like the above scenario would have involved a knife. Most men if they had money would also have carried a cane as part of the dress code. Sword canes were very popular back then. People without much money would frequently carry knives and impact weapons. The chances of someone other than those involved in the fight being injured were much smaller than they are today. Every bank, store or other business establishment where a stickup would be likely that I've ever been to usually has several people inside waiting to make a deposit, cash a check, make a withdrawal, or pay for their purchases. There are usually several employees on top of that. Any handgun that is powerful enough to have a good chance at incapacitating someone rapidly, is also powerful enough to shoot through someone. People when they panic are likely to move. Then you have the fact that you or the robber are likely to miss with some shots. If one of you is hit, there is a possibility you will fire a shot or shots involuntarily as a result. There is also the posibility that when you surprise the robber he will fire. Keep in mind most people in a bank, store, business establishment are going to be in a relatively small are around this. I'm a LEO and in that scenario I would call for backup and just wait and observe unless he was acting as though he was going to shoot someone or there were very few people present and the robber was acting rationally and calmly. I think it's a lot better to lose some money than get someone killed or injured when the possibility of that happening is less if you do option b(call, wait, and observe) than if you do option a(fight it out).
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Old December 31, 2004, 12:18 AM   #48
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FrankDrebin wrote:

Quote:
In the great majority of cases, robberies DON'T turn into shootings.....Which is why people who work in retail are generally forbidden to carry guns, and are instructed to give up the cash, and why it I'd rather be involved in a hold-up with with people who understand this, as opposed to people who are convinced they have a "moral obligation" to start shooting whenever they see a gun in order to save the day.
Your right. Just give into them. Give them the money. Perpetuate (sp?)
the cycle. Be sheep. Be timid. Give the BG the money and he will go away.

When will this type of thinking STOP? They are CRIMINALS. They CHOOSE to be CRIMINALS. The rights reserved for law abiding citizens NO LONGER APPLY. If we delt with criminals in a much harsher manner, perhaps they would think twice before they murder, rob, rape, and spread fear?

Oh, I can beat to death and rape a few old ladies and the worst I will get is life in prison, where I have no bills, am always fed, have no responsibilities, and recieve medical care? Hmmm.....beats the situation I'm in now.

How do you STOP that type of reasoning? With FEAR OF SWIFT PUNISHMENT.
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Old December 31, 2004, 12:26 AM   #49
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Your right. Just give into them. Give them the money. Perpetuate (sp?)
the cycle. Be sheep. Be timid. Give the BG the money and he will go away.
If some potential hero with a gun caused any of my family members to be hurt during a hold-up he'd have a lot more than the hold-up man to worry about. I have a good idea of the proportion of hold-ups that result in people being injured despite cooperating vs. being hurt after somone tried to thwart the hold-up, and if you were responsible for escalating the situation because you felt the need to buck the odds to realize your hero fantasy, I'd be your worst nightmare.

How many people have you shot? Do you have any idea how hard it is to immediatly incapacitate someone who isn't a stationary paper target, assuming you're even able to get the first shot off? If you're so bent on changing things, why don't you hang out in the ghetto for a while with a nice car, nice clothes, and a fat wallet in the wee hours on a hot August night. I'm sure it won't be long before you have a chance to see realize your potential. Maybe Charles Bronson can play you in the movie...
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Old December 31, 2004, 10:41 AM   #50
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Derius,

Did you ever give thought to the possibility that Frank might know what he's talking about? There are a lot of ways of nailing bank robbers, and you don't necessarily have a right to choose yours on the backs of innocent people. IFF you know for SURE that there is no backup AND you know for sure that you can kill this guy before he can kill or injure anyone else, I have no problem with your going for it. But what makes you so sure that that is the case? How do you know who each person in the bank is? Have you ever killed anyone before? How steady are you when people's lives depend on you? Speak from experience, please.

How about leaving the bank and nailing the guy when he gets outside? He's not going to let you? What makes you so sure he's going to let you shoot him inside the bank?

A lot of talk about a hypothetical that hasn't been fully hypothesized, and no one IN the situation would be likely to know what all the facts really are.

I don't trust much of what I read here, except maybe Frank's.

520
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