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Old December 15, 2004, 05:07 PM   #1
Te Anau
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The IDF's take on the AK-47 vs M16 debate

I thought this was pretty interesting.
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/m16vsak47.htm
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Old December 15, 2004, 05:24 PM   #2
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Very true, however.........

Most people in the US who buy ak47 var. do so because they are more than 1/2 the cost. I would love to have an ar-15, but am looking at a ak because I can find a ak for around $300, and an ar for about $700. This price equates to less tax, and money that can be spent on other things. For my needs (plinking, fun) I am considering an ak, because of the $400 savings.
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Old December 15, 2004, 05:27 PM   #3
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I totally agree.I just thought it was interesting.I also dont own an AR but do have 4 AK's in various calibers.Its hard to beat a Saiga!
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Old December 15, 2004, 06:43 PM   #4
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A-hem

Quote:
Since modern armies clean their smallarms on a daily even during combat deployment this is a non-issue
Can any soldier or marine in a modern army, such as one of our boys in Iraq or Afghanistan, confirm or deny this allegation?
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Old December 15, 2004, 07:08 PM   #5
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Since modern armies clean their smallarms on a daily even during combat deployment this is a non-issue.
I'm not in the Army or any armed forces (yet), but in my opinion, it won't matter if you clean your rifle daily. If you clean in the morning, your gun has all day to get sand/mud/strange materials in its critical areas, which will NOT be good in a mid-day firefight... If you clean at the end of the day, you're going to be fighting (or taking cover with a jammed weapon) with all of last night and today's gunk.

With an AK... You can fight with just about any day's gunk, and maybe more.

Of course, I don't know anything... These are all just assumptions.
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Old December 15, 2004, 07:26 PM   #6
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One small question, for those who have been there and done that.

How do you lube an AR in the desert? Seems like any oil at all would attract dust and the dust would eat away at the alloys.
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Old December 15, 2004, 09:01 PM   #7
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The M16 is reliable "enough." :barf:


Umm, no thank you. I would like it to be a little more than just enough. Even the absurdly pro-AR writer of that article could not bring himself to say that the AR was really reliable. Only that, if you are lucky enough to have just cleaned it before the big party, you might have yourself a decent weapon. :barf:

I would take a modern AK to a M16/M4 any day. I can't be sure that I will be able to do battle in a clean room.

What a crappy choice. Commie designed crap that will actually work versus low-bid committee designed crap that will work as long as you have a pit crew with you. :barf:
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Old December 15, 2004, 09:25 PM   #8
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What do you guys think would be a good police carbine? AK or AR or Galil or what?
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Old December 15, 2004, 09:25 PM   #9
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What's a TAVOR?

Does anyone know the cost of an M-4 procured by the Army?

Cost is not an issue with the AK-47 for the Israelis. They have hundreds of thousands them that were seldom fired and only thrown down once.
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Old December 15, 2004, 09:51 PM   #10
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My brother was at the range the other day for a marines for toys drive. He was shooting an m-16 that kept jamming after roughly 500 rounds. He went into his own gun tote and grabbed some Militec-1 for it. The gun stopped jamming and the soldiers were asking him what the hell he put on it. They could not believe it had 3000 rounds through it after that and didnt jam.
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Old December 16, 2004, 03:57 AM   #11
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As someone who has spent time conducting training exercises in mildly dusty conditions I can confirm that cleaning your rifle once a day (ie during 'morning routine') is not enough. It doesn't take that long for dust and debris to work it's way into a rifle especially if you're crawling around on the ground.
To counter this problem, one has to form a habit of quickly brushing out any dust from critical areas of a weapon whenever the chance arises.
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Old December 16, 2004, 06:14 AM   #12
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To summarize, the IDF chose the M16 over the AK47/Gail because the M16 is the better assault rifle in all parameters that matter.
That pretty much sums it up. They had an AK variant, and it didn't cut the mustard. Not accurate enough, not adaptable enough, too damn heavy.

They chose, and seem to be mightly lethal, with the lowly, unreliable, jamming, sand-sucking, crap-where-you-eat M16/M4. It seems, oddly, that hitting what you aim at trumps reliably innacurate in modern battle. The body counts all over the war on terror pretty much prove that, no?
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Old December 16, 2004, 06:29 AM   #13
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That pretty much sums it up. They had an AK variant, and it didn't cut the mustard. Not accurate enough, not adaptable enough, too damn heavy.
When I had the opportunity to fire an M4gery, and AR15, and an AK, I found them all to be roughly as accurate as eachother (250 yds.). With regards to adaptability, I'm curious what you mean. What adaptations can be made to an M16/M4 that can't be made to an AK? Weight-wise, the AK loses out in most variants, however a synthetic stock AK will often come close. In fact, an AK-103 is lighter than an M16A2 simply because it has a synthetic stock instead of all that wood.

Quote:
It seems, oddly, that hitting what you aim at trumps reliably innacurate in modern battle.
That, or better training, better tactics, and support from vehicles as well as aircraft.
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Old December 16, 2004, 09:29 AM   #14
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When I had the opportunity to fire an M4gery, and AR15, and an AK, I found them all to be roughly as accurate as eachother (250 yds.).
Must of been a hell of an AK, and really crappy ar-15/ M-4 you fired, cause I own several of both and the AR is much more accurate than the AK.

AK lucky if you can keep it it a 15" circle at 100 yards. AR easy to hit a target the size of a 50 cent piece every time.

If I were in battle I hope the enemy has the AK and I have the AR, cause one good hit beats 5 misses any day. It seems the Isrealis agree, and they would know from actual experience.

Quote from the article:

Those who are using the cost factor are simply unfamiliar with the IDF assault rifles history. Short review - up until the mid 1970's the IDF standard issue assault rifle was the FN FAL. At that time most of the Israeli elite units were using the AK47, which was considered to be much better then the FAL.

During the Israeli-Arab Yom Kippur War in 1973 the U.S. made a massive airlift to Israel containing large sums of brand new M16A1 and CAR15. However, shortly after the war the IDF had adopted the IMI Galil as its new standard issue assault rifle so most of the M16 remained in storage.

The Galil wasn't a big success to say the least. Most of the IDF elite units weren't impressed with the new weapon and remained with the AK47, which also had a deniability capability in covert deep insertions operations.

In the late 1970's few SF units tried out the CAR15 and were tremendously impressed. A decade later, by the late 1980's, almost all elite units were already armed with CAR15 which was gradually replacing the IMI Galil SAR and the AK47.

Note that this was years and years before the IDF officially adopted the M16 in the early 1990's. The IDF SF units that adopted the CAR15 didn't had any cost issue at mind. They could have used either the M16 or the Galil. It made no matter budget wise, since both weapons were already available in masses. The decision was purely quality based and no one told the units which weapon to use. More clearly - in some IDF elite units the Galil was simply never used and they always preferred the CAR15 over it.

Following the influence of the SF units, in the early 1990's the IDF had officially adopted the M16 family as its new standard issue assault rifle for all infantry oriented units, including both SF and conventional units. Today, the IMI Galil is only used by the Artillery Corps, Armor Crops, stationary elements in the Anti Aircraft Corps and rear line units.

Lets again review the situation in the early 1990's. The IDF had large sums of Galil variants it procured over the years, and it also had large sums of M16 it received in the 1973 war as well as in U.S. Army surpluses shipments over the years. Both weapons were available in masses and there wasn't any current or near future need to procure either weapon. The IDF also had thousands of AK47 that were captured over the years. So the IDF could use the AK47 free of charge over M16 or Galil.

Eventually, the IDF chose the M16, so again cost wasn't really an issue. Further more, even if there was such a cost factor, then the IDF could have simply supply all rear line troops with the cheaper M16 and issue the more expensive Galil to the front line troops. The fact that the exact opposite was done speaks for itself.

End Quote
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Old December 16, 2004, 10:21 AM   #15
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The AK is dependable, but I like control and on it’s best day an AK sucks for accuracy.
AR-15 and M16 variants are superior in accuracy to be sure but no amount of tweaking has taken all the bugs out yet. They are still a very finicky rifle.

Give me an old FN FAL any day I don’t mind the weight and I do like the 7.62
However the FN FNC IMHO is everything the M-16s should have been.
And don’t leave out the SiG 552 expensive but if you’re in S storm I want one!
HK made a G-41 that was a fantastic weapon but very cost prohibiting.
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Old December 16, 2004, 10:47 AM   #16
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The AK's ergonomics are far behind the AR platform

On the AR platform keeping your dust cover closed and a mag inserted avoids most problems.

Trusting your life to a weapons "reputation" is just silly.

Trusting your life to a poorly maintained weapon is real silly
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Old December 16, 2004, 10:55 AM   #17
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What a crappy choice. Commie designed crap that will actually work versus low-bid committee designed crap that will work as long as you have a pit crew with you. :barf:
There's a guy on this board whose screen name I can't remember ("Greg" something...) who's always launching into rants about folks who've received all their information from the Errornet nattering on about topics they have no real personal experience on. He has a real derogatory term for them, too; hopefully he'll never get hoisted by his own petard.

Personally? My HK's? Gone. AK's? Gone. Daewoo? Gone. FAL? Gone. Beretta AR-70? Gone. M14/M1A's? Gone. Still have an AR as my go-to gun, and in the build process on two more. Thankfully, my rifles can't access the Disinformation Cowpath, so they remain blissfully unaware of how they are supposed to (mal)function. Must be that awesome pit crew I keep on hand...
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Old December 16, 2004, 12:58 PM   #18
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Somebody either needs to learn to shoot...

Or buy a different variant of AK:

Quote:
AK lucky if you can keep it it a 15" circle at 100 yards.
Damn! Tell me the target was moving in a serpentine fashion, at least!

My own AK collection does considerably better.

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Old December 16, 2004, 02:42 PM   #19
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For all the ranting, opinions and the bleak combat conditions that exist around Tamara's home in TN , I think the basic facts of the article are pretty damning:

The Israelis, who have about the most practical military procurement system on earth, really do have a choice of FOUR proven rifle systems, and choose the M-16 anyway. That's a bit silly to argue with.

Either the gun works, or the Israelis have given over to some completely uncharateristic idiocy. Which is more likely?
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Old December 16, 2004, 03:01 PM   #20
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The Israelis, who have about the most practical military procurement system on earth, really do have a choice of FOUR proven rifle systems, and choose the M-16 anyway. That's a bit silly to argue with.

True, but in fairness you do have to consider the fact that the M16 comes at a much reduced cost due to US aid. Still, I have to agree that the M16 is a far more accurate weapon than an AK. I own several of both M16 and AK47 variants and were the S to HTF, I'd probably grab an M16 or M4 before an AK or RPK.
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Old December 16, 2004, 03:43 PM   #21
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Have no experience in real combat with either. And maybe plenty of M16's cut it reliability wise. Have owned a couple of each, and witnessed a couple dozen of each in use. Well the semi-auto AR and Ak anyway.

Have never seen an AK jam or fail to function. I know it has to have happened, but I haven't seen it. And most are using whatever cheap ammo you can get.

More than half the AR's I have seen jam. Some quite often. Others only now and then. Main thing AR's have going for them are ergonomics. I don't think the accuracy difference is enough to matter in combat. 1 inch groups @100 yards, vs. 3 inch groups @100 yards. Neither of those were shot offhand or during a fire fight. In other words both are accurate enough for the job.

And nobody has seen a working AK that couldn't group better than 15 inches. If it was shooting that poorly something was wrong with it.
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Old December 16, 2004, 04:18 PM   #22
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More than half the AR's I have seen jam. Some quite often. Others only now and then.
Then either the people you hang with don't know how to maintain their weapons or they buy substandard equipment. I've fired tens of thousands of rounds from both AR15's and M16's in both semi-auto and full auto, and if the weapon is up to par (5.56 chamber, chrome lined barrel, good and aligned gas rings, etc.) the AR/M16 platform can be very reliable. Even with cheap ammo like Wolf. I've only rarely had a jam or malfunction and most of the time when I have encountered a problem, it was due to other factors (bolt bounce, worn out or broken parts, wrong parts for the intended barrel length/function, improper timing, etc.)
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Old December 16, 2004, 05:06 PM   #23
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What a crappy choice. Commie designed crap that will actually work versus low-bid committee designed crap that will work as long as you have a pit crew with you.

There's a guy on this board whose screen name I can't remember ("Greg" something...) who's always launching into rants about folks who've received all their information from the Errornet nattering on about topics they have no real personal experience on. He has a real derogatory term for them, too; hopefully he'll never get hoisted by his own petard.

Personally? My HK's? Gone. AK's? Gone. Daewoo? Gone. FAL? Gone. Beretta AR-70? Gone. M14/M1A's? Gone. Still have an AR as my go-to gun, and in the build process on two more. Thankfully, my rifles can't access the Disinformation Cowpath, so they remain blissfully unaware of how they are supposed to (mal)function. Must be that awesome pit crew I keep on hand...

There is a gal on this board , who is always pontificating about this or that gun being the best (which usually happens to be the gun she just became infatuated with). This person is clearly stalking me. If I go missing, look for my body near a mountaintop in Tennessee!
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Old December 16, 2004, 05:20 PM   #24
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More than half the AR's I have seen jam. Some quite often. Others only now and then.
I have owned 4, still have three. I had an Olympic Arms CAR 15 that I traded for a gun safe. Still have a Colt's SP1 carbine and a Colt's SP1 rifle, as well as a Colt's M4. All three guns are all Colt's parts. They have never jammed, failed to feed, or otherwise malfunctioned.

The Olympic Arms carbine never failed until I introduced it to a magazine made by a company called Triple K. With that magazine in that rifle, it would jam five times in thirty attempts.

Cabelas refunded the price of the magazine; I used mags by Bushmaster, Thermold, Colt's, Adventureline and others and never had a problem.

There are quite a few guns out there that were built at home by ordering parts from Model 1 Sales, or Rock River or who knows where. Were they headspaced properly? I don't know.

Are these guns being built to the same specifications as the weapons supplied to our military? Doubtful.

And the homebrew guys doing this; are they as well trained as a Marine armorer?

Hmmph.

So the Israeli IDF, the United States Army, and the United States Marine Corps have got it all wrong, and a few folks on the Internet have got it figured out.

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Old December 16, 2004, 05:24 PM   #25
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So the Israeli IDF, the United States Army, and the United States Marine Corps have got it all wrong, and a few folks on the Internet have got it figured out.
I was always reminded that my rifle was made by the lowest bidder.
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