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Old October 31, 2004, 06:33 PM   #1
Colduglandon
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IMR 4895 Cal 30 06 bullet 170 speer Hornady

Picked up some bullets at raffle at gun club

170 gr Speer and box of Hornady

looking for a load for IMR 4895 powder suitable for a Bolt Action rifle US mod 1917

(tried 42.6 gn of 4895 viewed a couple of threads on cast bullets, found recommendations for 42 gn and 43 and so I split the difference and using Lee dipper. Got good group with the Hornady, Speer ok not as good need more work)
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Old November 2, 2004, 03:30 AM   #2
Tom Matiska
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Hunting or just punching holes? I loaded some 170's for my 308 a few years back and found it doesn't pay to get too greedy. When you push a blunt nose 30-30 at 2500-2600 fps, the edible meat/purple jelly ratio is pretty bad at close range.
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Old November 2, 2004, 05:16 AM   #3
Colduglandon
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I plan on using the round for hunting.

I have a 30 30 that I will be using in the brush and wooded areas. I have had good luck with this rifle using 150 Silvertips.

I plan on using the '06 in open areas for long shots. Last year I missed some golden opportunities near sunset, I was dropped off in a new area and positioned in some hay bails with a great view overlooking a large open area. The deer came out of a run on the far side away from me and broke diagnolly away from me. When I got back I bought a scope and a mount for my '06 so I would be able to get a better shot at long distance.

I do not have a chronograph, but I figured that if this load were good for cast bullets it would not be too hot.

I know what you mean about jelly, one of the guys I was with hit a doe at close range with a 308 and turned some of the meat into a purple mass. Ugh!
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Old November 3, 2004, 12:04 AM   #4
rwilson452
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'06 and deer

Figuring a nominal velocity, If you sight in 1-3/4 inches high at 100. your good to 300 yds. After that it starts falling off rather quickly.
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Old November 3, 2004, 11:57 PM   #5
alan
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Paul:

Back when Lake City and Frankfort Arsenal were loading Match ammunition in 30-06, 173 grain boat tail bullets, the Match Load was 47.5 grains of 4895.

They used a NON CANISTER GRADE 4895, Match Brass might have been either thicker or thinner than your brass, and primers can cause some variation in velocity and pressure, however this Match Ammunition never caused any problems with rifles in proper condition, so far as I know. MV was supposed to be 2650 ft/sec.

I always found that this ammunition shot quite well in my Garand as well as in bolt guns, though I didn't hunt with it..
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Old November 4, 2004, 11:28 PM   #6
Colduglandon
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Alan
I am using Lake City brass. I will vary the load on the Speer bullets because I am not getting a good group. The Hornady are right on with the current load I am using. I tried using some boat tail 150 IMIs reloads in this gun last spring when I first got the scope and it shot terrible. Factory PMCs were awful as well. I went back to these non boat tail bullets and am quite happy. I do have some 173 match bullets from DCM but I am saving those for service rifle shoots with the M1. Thanks for the info.
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Old November 6, 2004, 12:08 AM   #7
alan
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Paul:

For the 30-06, the 42-43 grain 4895 is a light load, possibly to light. Boat tail bullets are more efficient, loose less velocity than do flat base bullets, however the advantage usually does not come into play inside 300 or so yards. Years ago, Winchester loaded 30-06 Match ammunition, as I recall using 180 grain FLAT BASE bullets, which shot quite well beyone 600 yards.

Lake City brass would likely be heavier, thicker walled, than Winchester, and a little lighter than Remington. The FA Match Bullets you mentiomned, 173 grain from DCM are full patch (full jacket) and not suitable for hunting, they are illegal in some places.

An old Lyman loading manual, 45th edition, I have lists the followiong for 150 grain Jacketed bullets with 4895.

Starting load 46 grains, 2680 ft/sec, 36,900 cup pressure
Top load listed 51.5 grains, 2958 ft/sec, 49,200 cup pressure
Fired in a Universal receiver, which is test equipment, NOT an actual rifle

No listing for 170 Grain Jacketed, however they did list 168 grain
starting load 43.0 grains, top load 48.5 grains, velocity from 2444 to 2762, pressures were under 50,000.

Re the 1917 U.S. Enfield, what sort of shape is the barrel in? Also, the barrel might have a long throught. You can check this as follows. Resize a fired case. Drop a projectile you plan to use into the chanber. Put the case in behind the bullet. Close the bolt. This will drive the case over the end of the buillet, with the bullet in hard contact with the rifling. The over all length of this dummy round should be around 3.4", posibly a bit over that.

Try seating whatever bullet you are using about .005 deeper than the dummy round. You can play around some with seating depth, as this will sometimes help with accuracy. Some bullets are tangent ogive, others are secant ogive. The full diameter bearing surface varies, I believe, as memory serves, that the secant ogive design had a shorter bearing surface, which depending on barrel condition, can make a difference.

Did you mention shooting lead bullets. From what I've heard, when changing from lead to jacketed rifle bullets, the barrel should be thoroughly cleaned.
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Old November 8, 2004, 08:44 AM   #8
Colduglandon
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Alan
I don't plan on using the 173 for hunting. I got them for the M1 and match shooting.

I don't use cast bullets in the Enfield, just used a comparative load I found posted for cast bullets of the same weight as a starting point with the Speer and Hornady rounds.

I will follow your advise and test out the throad.

I was quite happy with the Hornady with the exisiting powder charge. Although maybe on the light side I was able to put 3 inside a quarter at a 100 yards.

Not a scientific test, but the flat based Hunting rounds appeared to have a softer jacket and would expand more in the barrel on firing, and I figured if the boat tails where less stable it was because of the shape of the bullet, the hardness of the jacket and the barrel has had a lot of use. If I can get good accuracy from the flat base rounds I will stick with that.

Thanks for the input
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Old November 8, 2004, 09:46 PM   #9
drinks
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1917

Paul;
If your barrel is worn or oversize, the oversize can be determined by getting a soft lead sinker a little bigger than the bore and driving it through the barrel with a 1/4" wood dowel, then measuring bore and groove diameters.
Some times, a worn or oversize barrel can be made to shoot accurately with a .001 or .002 oversize hard cast gas check bullet, some thing about 18-24 Brinnell Hardness with a good lube.
Velocities of 1800-2500 fps are practical and the bullets have good penetration and expansion at ranges of 200-250 yds.
Molds for cast bullets with bc.'s .260 to .350 are available at very reasonable prices and the alloy needed is just wheel weights with a small[1-1.5%] Tin added and water dropped at casting.
Just some suggestions.
Happy shooting, Don
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Old November 9, 2004, 10:47 PM   #10
Colduglandon
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Think I will stick with jacketed rounds for now. Getting decent results. But I will try the measurements of throat and bore that have been suggested.
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Old November 9, 2004, 11:45 PM   #11
alan
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Paul:

Should it turn out that the barrel in your 1917 Enfield suffers from erosion of the throat, SOMETIMES the following will help.

Carefully increase powder charge. Re the loads you mentioned, you have room to work here.

Go to a heavier bullet, which would be longer for the same caliber. You might also try both of the above.

Seat whatever jacketed bullet you are using to a longer overall length of cartridge.

Last possibility, short of rebarreling is setting the existing barrel back a few threads. The barrel is unscrewed. A few threads are cut off the end of the shank, depending on how deep errosion goes. Move the shoulder forward, the equivalent amount, cutting new threads up to new shoulder location. Reinstall barrel and rechamber. This will sometimes work, it should be considerably less expensive than a new barrel and installation of same. Any good gunsmith could tell you whether the above is practical, depending on the configuration of existing barrel.

Of course, if you have found a propellant/bullet combination that shoots in a satisfactory manner, don't bother with any of the above, just shoot the thing and enjoy yourself.

While I no longer shoot in high power rifle competition, I did that for many years, and perhaps I still think in those terms. Hitting the 10 ring at 600 yards, it's 12", in diameter is a lot different from hitting a deer sized animal at ranges that are likely less than 200 yards.
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Old November 10, 2004, 10:28 PM   #12
Colduglandon
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In Mass its pretty difficult to find a place to shoot at that range.

For Deer hunting in NH or Maine, I don't get very long shots. When I make it out to Nebraska, the area I hunt does not give me many opportunities beyond 200 yards.

Got a story about deer and target shooting sent this out last week to some friends TRUE STORY

"Funny thing happened at the range today. I was sighting in the 30 06. This other guy at the range says to me after I fired my second shot, whats that behind your target. I look through the spotting scope and what do I see, a doe. We watch this deer for about a half hour munching away down range and a 6 point buck comes out of the woods to join her. Awful tempting says I. If I had fired ten seconds later I would have shot the damn thing through the head. Explain that to the game warden."

Hows that for a fish story
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