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Old December 10, 2004, 05:49 AM   #26
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hi,
what makes a FA m4 carbine that expensive? a semi-auto m16 is about 800 bucks in us, as far as i know. well, at least in germany are m16 copies made in germany about 2000 euros...whats the big deal to change a semi into a full auto, so that it is worth 11000 bucks?
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Old December 10, 2004, 12:16 PM   #27
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m-4

Only that people are sadly willing to pay that!
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Old December 10, 2004, 12:23 PM   #28
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what makes a FA m4 carbine that expensive?
Because back in 1986, the government decided they would prohibit the registration of machineguns for civilian use. So there is now a fixed number of machineguns for the average person to purchase and with more and more people wanting them, price goes up.

One thing you seem to not see is that a criminal in the US can have ANY machinegun manufactured anywhere in the world if he desires one. Just like cocaine, if you want it, someone will supply it. The fact that few criminals do use fully automatic weapons should imply they are not the best thing in the world for killing people.

There was a time back in the early 1900s when the Generals running the army thought that a semi-automatic rifle was useless because the troops would waste too many bulllets.
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Old December 10, 2004, 04:45 PM   #29
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SIG-FAN:

1. I had mentioned YOUR reference to the Miller case. I had made reference to this "needs" as opposed to "wants" business.

2. Maryland is one of those limits on magazine capacity states. I do not know why they bother, other than to say that Maryland has some strange laws. I also believe that Maryland forbids the ownership of automatic weapons to private citizens. Not all states do. Pennsylvania, where I currently live, does not forbid such ownership, though federal clearance is still required. Then there is the question of cost. Resulting from ill advised federal legislation passed in 1986, the cost of transferable automatic weapons has increased sharply. This has been mentioned in a previous post, which you might have seen. Limits on magazine capacity are no longer a part of federal law, as the Assault Weapons Ban, an example of legislative foolishness, expired on 13 September 2004.

3. As to your question regarding "what is the big deal of a permission for guns ...", interesting question there. In my view, it becomes a question of principle and philosophy. Government is the servant, not the master of the people and the individual citizen. Some would have it that government is the master, an idea that I and many others disagree with. So, when an inherently individual right, that being the right of self defense, a right that must include the ability to possess and acquire such personal weapons as are suitable to ones defense of self and family, is reduced to a privilege for which government permission must be sought, essential rights are lost, for the government can, one day grant permission, while denying it the next day, or it can selectively grant or deny permission. In such case, the government has become the master, while the citizens are servants, or worse. I find this less than acceptable. "The German Way" might well work for you. That does not mean that it would work for others, nor does it mean that others would, given the option, choose as you have.

4. As to "compromising" with the gun haters, which you also asked about, consider this. When an individual or group(s) have repeatedly and publicly stated that it is their intention and ultimate goal to destroy rights, usage and traditions that you hold dear, such is the case with what you describe as the "gun haters" in the U.S., how could you possibly consider "compromise" with them? Additionally, when in the past, you had attempted to "compromise" with them it turned out to be a "one way street", for while they took whatever you offered, they always came back for more. Where is even the possibility of compromise, compromise being a situation where each side gives up something?

5. I have no idea as to the murder rate in Germany, so I will take your word for the number you mentioned. Regarding the output of Mr. Moore, given his demonstrated tendencies toward a certain looseness with the facts, I would not put to much faith in his output.
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Old December 11, 2004, 07:59 AM   #30
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hi allan,
when i was in the us, i was reading occasionally some gunmagazines, where i found some companies offering tuning kits for semi-auto ar15 changing to full auto. the kits were just a few hundred bucks, not more. so why paying 11000 for an m16 when you can get a fully automatic ar15 for maybe 1000 bucks or so? ...
i just did a little resarch at google, the data provided by more seems to be quite reliable, just type "murder statistics USA" and you'll get the data...
the scary thing is, that a significant number of murders are commited by people going crazy...murder w/in the families (wife cheated on her husband), but also things like conflicts with neighbours, collegues, the boss are solved with guns...thats quite scary...just watch at google...

the reason, why i'm certainly convinced by the "german way" (silly word ) is that your criminal reccord (i hope u know what i mean, i just dont know the proper word) is checked, you have to pass a test, where you have to prove that u know how to handle guns (eg. not pointing the muzzle at other, what to do when your gun jams, ect.). therefore, criminals cannot get a gun legally, accidents are reduced (no german hunter would nearly get any idea like putting a loaded gun on his dog back!). kids dont get guns, very important! its essentially like your permission for machineguns. i mean you dont seem to complain about that permission, so why should you complain for a semi-auto permission. i think, all of u guys here just want just reliable, non-criminal and matured people to own guns, don't you?!? Well, at least i wouldn't want any convicted criminal or some proven loony in my neighbourhood, having the legal permission to own guns!

-sig-fan
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Old December 11, 2004, 08:12 AM   #31
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criminals cannot get a gun legally
Criminals cannot get guns legally in the US either.

As murder is illegal, why should breaking a law on getting a gun worry them?

Quote:
accidents are reduced
Accidents have been declining for decades. Laws don't prevent accidents, training does.

Quote:
kids dont get guns
Kids don't get guns in the US either unless under adult supervision.

I acquired my first firearm when I was 12 years old and haven't killed anyone yet, either by accident or on purpose.

Quote:
its essentially like your permission for machineguns. i mean you dont seem to complain about that permission, so why should you complain for a semi-auto permission.
We do complain. It is just not useful to complain about the machinegun laws at this time because of misinformation, ignorance and prejudice. We do not want any other "classes" of guns to fall under that ban. The recently deceased "Semi-Automatic Assault Weapon" ban proves the uselessness of gun bans. It had ZERO effect on crime in this country.

All gun bans and restrictions violate our Constitution. Years of brainwashing are gradually removing that belief from the collective minds of Americans.
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Old December 11, 2004, 01:43 PM   #32
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hi hk,

"Accidents have been declining for decades. Laws don't prevent accidents, training does."

as far as i know there are still many hunting accidents in the us. training doesnt help anything, as long as u dont know the basic rules about handling guns. i feel better, if i know that my neighbour at the shooting range has prooven in a test that he know how to handle them. i neither want anyone driving a car without drivin license near me.

in 1998 974 shooting accidents in the US
in 2004 32 shooting accidents in germany

NOW TELL ME THAT SOME TESTS ARE NOT NECESARY!!!

how can accidents happen? if someone without experience is able to buy a gun, without knowing how to use it! in germany, you can get a gun, but you have to proove first that you know how to handle guns. thats why there allmost no shooting accidents in germany.

do you even give a damn about anyone who died because some idiot shot him by accident, or why can't you just understand that a test (similar to the driving license test, but other questions, of course) will save lifes???

souces:
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/ihea/hea1998.html
http://www.abschaffung-der-jagd.de/g...aelle/256.html


"Kids don't get guns in the US either unless under adult supervision.

I acquired my first firearm when I was 12 years old and haven't killed anyone yet, either by accident or on purpose"

sure they do. think about columbine, they got their guns LEGALLY at shotshows, although they were teenagers. thats fact. period

its good to know that u didnt kill anyone. but not all teenagers have an easy time at highschool while being bullied and beeten up by others...some of these kids seek revenge...

"Criminals cannot get guns legally in the US either.
As murder is illegal, why should breaking a law on getting a gun worry them?"

what should them prevent of getting a gun legaly, if there aren't any restrictions and gun permissions...? what about loonies gettin a gun? they are not nesserarily convicted for a crime, but still i dont want any psycho to have a gun.
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Old December 11, 2004, 02:02 PM   #33
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think about columbine, they got their guns LEGALLY at shotshows, although they were teenagers. thats fact. period
They DID NOT get their guns legally. They were under age and talked some adults into purchasing the guns for them. The guns were purchased at a gun show but the adults STILL had the same paperwork to purchase the guns because they bought them from a licensed dealer. Those adults were arrested for providing the guns.

Quote:
in 1998 974 shooting accidents in the US
in 2004 32 shooting accidents in germany

NOW TELL ME THAT SOME TESTS ARE NOT NECESARY!!!
And exactly how many hunters are there in the US vs. Germany? The comparison is invalid.

Quote:
what should them prevent of getting a gun legaly, if there aren't any restrictions and gun permissions...? what about loonies gettin a gun? they are not nesserarily convicted for a crime, but still i dont want any psycho to have a gun.
Criminals, psychos, loonies, etc. DO NOT go into gun stores and buy firearms legally. Gun laws DO NOT prevent criminals from acquiring firearms. A new report from the government (Gun Violence: Justice Department Study Shows 79 Percent of Criminals Obtained Firearms From Illegal Sources) confirms what we already know. If gun laws were effective in preventing crime, why does England have such a problem with gun crimes (Violent crime 'four times higher' than reported ) when civilian ownership is completely illegal?
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Old December 11, 2004, 02:36 PM   #34
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I dont mean to sound mean. But.........
I was in the USAF recently, and just seperatedunder honorable conditions. I carried various versions of all sorts of weapons that joe citizen cant get. Some I do not think should be allowed, but for the fact that there are no safe way to operate them (mk19 machine grenade launcher). Does that mean that they shouldn't be allowed, I do not believe that is MY call. Some people may have the means to operate it safely, and if they are willing to take the liability of such ownership, then they should. That said, operating a weapon such as you mention takes a LOT of practice, and isn't viable except for in a few situations. The military (of all organizations) stresses semi-auto fire for many reasons. Most importantly, most FA or 3 round burst weapons are only accurate (using 3 rd burst or FA) out to about 15 meters. They are expensive to obtain, and operate. Honestly I could take a $800 ar-15 with a 20 barrel, and cause more meyham than most averge citizens out there with a FA weapon. Why? Shot placement, extensive knowledge of said weapon. BUT, here is the kicker. I am an adult, that said, I am liable for any and all of my actions. I do not wish to go around hurting people, nor do I wish to be punished for it. I could take a piece of pine 2X4 and kill with it, but should that be a NFA weapon because I put a rusty nail through it?

With regard to criminals and guns.
Why would one in the crimial enterprize go through the trouble of getting (cough, fingerprinted, background checked, etc) if he/she knew that these things could be used to ID them later?) I think I would just pay some illegal imprter to get one. Any ammount of laws will not stop the illegal obtaining of weapons that are illegal. Look how much $ has been put into stopping drugs? I find such "blissninny" whining to be based more on one's skewed view of their role in our society. Just because YOU do not think its right, or needed, or whatever does not mean YOU have the RIGHT to say its wrong, etc for the next person. There are some universal truths, and they are simple, if you think about it. An INDIVIDUALS right to choose for themselves should not be limited unless it has an ADVERSE and NEGATIVE affect on others. Citing other's posts about legally obtained NFA weapons, one could actually say that they are actually affecting society less than the illegal glock 9mm that the drug dealer bought down the street. Does that mean that glock 9mm should be illegal just because someone committed a crime with one like it?

I can guarentee without fail, that more legal Sig handguns of the model, caliber, and even metal treatment type that you have, have been used in more crimes than all of the legally obtained machine guns in the united states combined. Quit whining, this is a philisophical debate that has no merit, as it is all about "possible this', "maybe that" that lacks actual histoical significance of any type.

With regard to limiting the rights of the law abiding because of criminal use of like products, I have this to say. Go into your garage, look at your car. The make, model and year. Do you particularly like your car? Has a car like it been used in a crime? I imagine a car of similar type has been used in a crime somewhere. Vehicle deaths account for many more deaths each year than do firearm deaths, accident or otherwise. Yet for some reason anyone is allowed to POSSESS one. This doesnt mean they are allowed to the privilage of driving it on government provided roads (they are allowed to operate on private property, without concern for age, ability, etc). Guns have been deamonized for some reason, and those that are not able to look at the argument subjectivly (without emotion, or agenda) start making conjecture, assumptions, and look at the capabilitys of such items. They do not look at the actual use, reason for ownership, etc. If I said that anyone that owns a gun is a murderer (seriously) you would probably get all bent out of shape, because you dont want your gun ownership affected.

Any firearm, regardless of type, length, semi-auto-bolt-single shot-lever action, etc is dangerous. You had to pass a backgound check to obtain your SIG, would you likely use that weapon is a premeditated crime? I do not think so, as it would be traced back to you in a heartbeat. Would you be more apt to (if you were planning a crime) obtain an unregistered, untraceable weapon for use 1 time, then dispose of it. This would be the smart method, IMHO. And you didnt have to do anything but wait a few days, and wait 10 min for the dealer to call the FBI and check you out. Think about this, if you had to fork over $10,000 for a weapon that you wanted, have to be fingerprinted, photographed, and subject yourself to search, and wait 8 months or more to get it, would you use that in a crime, when you can get 10 or more of same, not be fingerprinted, picture taken, consent to search, wait 8 months for the same price?

When any of our gun rights is affected, all gun owners are affected. Just because your particular weapon is not, does not mean that your rights have not been diminished. As a responsable gun owner, you should realize that law abiding citizens should not have to pay for the evil of criminals.
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Old December 12, 2004, 01:02 AM   #35
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Sig-Fan:

A couple of quick points, for it's growing late.

1. Re the conversion kits you mentioned, they are mostly JUNK and they do not work as claimed. Additionally, the conversion of any semi-automatic firearm to full automatic, without registration of the conversion, if a federal felony. A felony is a serious crime, this one punisable by 5 years in prison plus heavy fines.

2. More guns are owned by "civilians", that is private citizens in the U.S. than ever before, and the rate of accidental shootings, forget about what the screamers on television claim, is lower than ever before. This business of licensing and requirements for "training" is bunk, with "training" to easily becoming a license to steal, the trainors stealing from the trainees. As for licensing, in Germany, you need a license, government issued, in order to drive a car, just like here in the U.S. There are still auto carshes in both countries.

3. In the U.S. a single felony conviction serves to permanently eliminate the individuals right to own or use firearms of any kind. As to the "Loony" that you are concerned about, who is to tell who is "loony" as opposed to who isn't? They cannot do that here, can tbey do it in Germany? Unfortunately, our law makers find it easier to attack the law abiding citizenry with idiotic gun control laws, than to make proper criminal law. Proper criminal law would specify the death penalty upon conviction for criminal use of a firearm. Self defense or other justifiable shooting would not be criminal use.

4. As to my going along with the idea of needing government permission in order to own automatic weapon(s), I do not know how you managed, but you have completely misunderstood my position and thinking. By the way, this entire discussion arose out of a question concerning the "sunset" of a particularly dumb federal law, that being the "Assault Weapons Ban", which never in it's 10 year life "banned" a single assault weapon. Look up the meaning of the German word Sturmgewere, an then look at what our legislative idiocy said.

It seems that we have reached that point where we begin to repeat ourselves, so I will close here with best wishes for the holiday season to you and yours.
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Old December 12, 2004, 01:29 AM   #36
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5 years in prison plus heavy fines.
10 years.

Quote:
...Sturmgewere...
Sturmgewehr.
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Old December 12, 2004, 12:02 PM   #37
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PMDW:

I had previously apoligized for my butchery, re the spelling of German words and place names. Apologies still appropriate, it seems, or might it be that my spell check program has problems too?

Thought that it was 5 years in the slammer, is it really 10? Either one is more than I would care to spend.
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Old December 12, 2004, 12:23 PM   #38
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hi allan and hk,

@hk 300k hunters in germany. hunting in germany is quite different, here you can't just go out and hunt something, but you have first to pass a qualification that takes about one or two years and costs about 2k euros. after that, you are allowed to get somewhere a piece of forrest were you are responsible for. as hunter in germany you are responsible the whole part of the year for your part of the forrest, every weekend you have to check out if the forrest is fine, if the animals are not sick, count how many animals are on your area...

you said 79% of the gun crimes are commited with illegal guns. therefore are 21% commited with legal guns.
last year 98,7% were commited with illegal guns. therefore just .13% of the gun crimes were commited with legal guns...
that makes a difference of about 20% between germany and US...now figure out how many crimes could have been prevented considering that many of this incidents happen by people going mad (wife cheated on him), while carring a gun....

@abelew
i certainly dont have a problem with assaultrifles, since alan explained me about the high barriers in order to get them. i just think, that it would be good thing, if you had some barriers about obtaining (is this the right word?) regular semis...

@alan, before you start ingnoring this thread, please answer me, why these conversion kits are sold, if you commit a crime by installing it? noone would buy one of these things just to look at the gun parts.

i agree, thats enough words for this single toppic...
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Old December 12, 2004, 12:36 PM   #39
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ahhh, sorry i forgot.

my idea of loony is someone, whose psychologist said that he is one. but seriously...loonies are people who tried to kill themselves, who have to different personalities (just like in fight club), people with paranoia...oh sorry, according to michael moore the majority of the us citizens have paranoia

@abelew

"Just because YOU do not think its right, or needed, or whatever does not mean YOU have the RIGHT to say its wrong, etc for the next person."

yea of course, i think thats what you would call the right to say your opinion.i have also the right to say, that i want everyone to protect the ozone layer, even if some people would be affected.
do u have the right to say "i want everyone driving a car near me having a driving license." i'd say: " hack yea, dude, of course you have the right to, even if driving without license works quite well for others, you still have the right to complain!!!"

thanks to you all guys, i improved my english during the few last days by writing lots of posts and by exchanging opinions...
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Old December 12, 2004, 01:52 PM   #40
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i improved my english during the few last days by writing lots of posts and by exchanging opinions...
I'm still working on improving my English.

However, you missed one question. If gun laws work, and England has a 100% ban on civilian owned firearms, how come they have this problem with gun related crime? They have no gun stores, no guns shows and you can't break into someone's house and steal one because they aren't suppose to be there in the first place. The country is an island, so you can't just drive across the border and smuggle one back in the trunk of your car.

Based on the logic of gun bans, as the police arrest criminals and confiscate guns, the overall number of guns should decrease along with a decrease in the number of crimes committed with guns. But the result seems to be that by removing guns from those that do obey laws and who handed over their guns to the government is to make them an easier and safer target for those that by definition do not obey laws, criminals.
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Old December 12, 2004, 02:44 PM   #41
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Ahh, did you not look up the crime stats for "assult rifles" in the US before you went off on semi-auto rifles? I do not think that semi-auto rifles are the problem, its illegally obtained handguns. Also, Germany and the US are 2 different countries. In the UNITED STATES, I would gladly take more crime for more civil liberty. There are tradeoffs for every decision, and I hope the US takes more steps to prosecute those that are violating the law, as opposed to taking the easier route and blaming an item for the crime of a person. What you said about Germany's hunting idea just makes me not ever want to leave the US because I value (legal) personal freedom too much.

I have noticed that in the US, people take too much time, energy, and pleasure trying to tell the next person what to do, how to think, where to do it, and why. If people spent that time on being constructive and minding their own stinking business, the world would be a better place. All of those soccer moms who drive huge SUV's have a larger impact on our world than all the gun owners combined, yet if I told them that they could not drive those behemouths, because I do not like the pollution that they create, they would buy a contract on my life. Everyone likes telling others what to do, but they hate it when the other people do the same to them. Does the gun control we have in place work? I believe that a background check is a good idea, because it keeps felons from buying from law abiding gun dealers. Do I think it is the solution, no. Do I believe that penalizing Joe Law Abiding citizen something because criminals do not abide by the law, ABSOLUTLY NOT!

Germany is not the United States!


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Quote:
do u have the right to say "i want everyone driving a car near me having a driving license." i'd say: " hack yea, dude, of course you have the right to, even if driving without license works quite well for others, you still have the right to complain!!!"
The reason that the government and you can requre people to possess a drivers liscense in order to operate a vehicle on public roads is.........The government provides the roads, and driving on public roads is a privliage. Gun ownership is not a privliage in the US, its a right . That said, anyone can operate a privatly owned vehicle on private property without any liscense at all. On my private property, I could require that all people pass a drug screen, breathalizer test, sign a waiver of liability, and have their photo taken, and that would be legal, because I have the right to deny entry/use of my property just like the government does with public roads.
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Old December 12, 2004, 11:54 PM   #42
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Sig-Fan wrote:

@abelew
i certainly dont have a problem with assaultrifles, since alan explained me about the high barriers in order to get them. i just think, that it would be good thing, if you had some barriers about obtaining (is this the right word?) regular semis...

@alan, before you start ingnoring this thread, please answer me, why these conversion kits are sold, if you commit a crime by installing it? noone would buy one of these things just to look at the gun parts.

I have no answer to your question concerning why these so-called "conversion kits" are sold other than the following. Someone thinks that they can make money selling them. At one time, I believe that the law has since been changed, selling these kits was legal, whether or not they actually worked. INSTALLING THE KIT INTO A FIREARM WASN'T, UNLESS THE CONVERSION WAS REGISTERED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, as mentioned earlier. There might also have been problems with STATE LAW, as I had mentioned earlier too. Other than this, some Americans do all manner of really stupid things, just as I'm certain do some Germans. Add in, while we are at it, the British, the French, the Dutch and whomever else you can think of. They all do some really stupid things, or at least some of them do.

Another of your questions dealt with restrictions on "regular semis", if I underestood it. As I mentioned earlier, generally speaking, conviction for a felony PERMANENTLY removes the individuals right to own, possess, purchase or use either firearms or ammunition. This is FEDERAL LAW, and is applicable in all 50 states.

Sig-Fan, you also wrote the following:

my idea of loony is someone, whose psychologist said that he is one. but seriously...loonies are people who tried to kill themselves, who have to different personalities (just like in fight club), people with paranoia...oh sorry, according to michael moore the majority of the us citizens have paranoia

On this, three observations:

1. I don't know about Germany, but in this country, neither psychologists nor phychiatrists can definitively tell who is "loony" before the fact, that is absent specific evidence, and observation, and even then the "experts" do not always agree. Also, in the U.S. people who have undergone involuntary commitment to a mental institute can be barred from the purchase of arms.

2. I did not know that Michael Moore had credintials in either psycology or psychiatry. I had thought that his field was the writing of books and film making.

3. Re his evaluation of the mental health of "the majority of Americans", given that I'm not really familiar with his work, did he include himself in that characterization of Americans, the one that claimed that "the majority of Americans have paranoia"? By the way, I think that the correct form of the phrase would be ARE PARANOID, or suffer from paranoia. This last is a minor point though, as English is not your native language.
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Old December 13, 2004, 04:41 AM   #43
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INSTALLING THE KIT INTO A FIREARM WASN'T, UNLESS THE CONVERSION WAS REGISTERED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Are they actually "conversion" kits or are they "parts" kits? It is perfectly legal for a person that owns a registered machinegun to order spare parts for that gun. It is perfectly legal for a person that does not own a gun that the "parts" will fit in to own the parts. However, it is a violation of federal law to merely possess the full auto parts and a firearm they will function in, regardless of whether or not they are ever installed in the firearm.
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Old December 13, 2004, 04:57 AM   #44
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hi hk and allan,

@hk in germany you can buy a semi glock 17. as some of you know there the full auto glock 18, which differs from the glock 17 just by a different fireswitch/selector. you are allowed to own this switch and you are allowed to have a glock (if u have the permission for guns). but its not legal to intall the switch! but still people pay 300euros for this useless piece of metal...as u see, there are stupid germans as well

@alan
MM reffered to the militia, when he talked about the americans suffering under paranoia (thanks for correcting me). in the movie you could see some guys and a soccer mom, handling with all kinds of firearms while trying to convince MM of the necessity of a militia in the us.
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Old December 13, 2004, 12:05 PM   #45
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Germany

In response to the larger number of firearms accidents in the USA, I do not believe that it is training or safety that is the difference. You have to figure in some other variables. As Germany is about the size of Texas there are understandably few options for hunting also the population density is high. In the US there are just a huge number more guns period. Then factor in that we use them for sport more than any other country in the world because we have more ranges, more hunting land, more forests. Germany probably has a lot less car crashes per capita also because the average german doesnt drive A suburban a pickup and one or two cars like many US families. We don't use mass transit just like we don't leave the firearms to our police here.
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Old December 13, 2004, 03:02 PM   #46
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I noticed Sig completly stopped arguing the rights/privilage thingy

That said, I do not wish to be misunderstood here. The only way to compare Germany to the United States is to extrapolate the number of gun accident per person.

I did some basic math.

As far as I could tell (based on quick net search)
Germany had 82,424,609 people in 2004.
United States had 294,451,983 in 2004.

Now, as I understand it, if you divide the number of people by the number of gun accidents, you will find out who has a higher accident per person by looking at who has the lower number (because 1 accident per 10 people is more accident than 1 crime per 100)

Germany 1 gun accident per 2587419
US 1 gun accident per 302312

Now you may think that this is a higher rate of accident, and it is. But to get a truly accurate number, one would have to look up gun ownership per person in the united states, and germany and then compare those numbers. I imagine that the US accident rate would be on par or less than that of Germany. Just because the actual number is higher, does not mean that the accident per person per gun rate is higher also. True, more guns = more accidents. More people = more statistical diseases per person, more cars=more accidents per person. Quoting statistics can only bring you so far in an arguement such as this, because accident, crime, whatever stats can not show that Germany is not the United States based on their respective laws. Sure its easy for one to say "oh my god, the united states is a gun totin, hillbilly, crime pit." But in the end Sig, do you live in Germany or the United States. If you do not live, nor are a citizen of the United States, then what are you doing going around saying we are wrong. Maybe we just do things differently? Is that ok with you?
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Old December 13, 2004, 03:53 PM   #47
SIG-Fan
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hi,
ok i'd say things are different, not worse neither better
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Old December 13, 2004, 07:57 PM   #48
MeekAndMild
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Abe, there is more to it than that. What is the rate of gun accidents in German-Americans living in America?

If you look at US gun related crimes and accidents you have to factor in the fact that a significant minority of US population is entirely different tempermentally from Germans. In my state there is one county which is about 60% German-American and they happen to be one of the wealthiest counties, with the lowest crime rate. On the other hand there is a county with 55% African-American and they are number one in gun related crime and accidents. Another county with 80+/ percent Scots-Irish has the highest suicide rate in the state.
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Old December 13, 2004, 08:16 PM   #49
alan
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SIG-Fan wrote in his latest:

hi,
ok i'd say things are different, not worse neither better

From where I sit in all this, that sounds like the beginning of understanding.

Sig-Fan also offered:
MM reffered to the militia, when he talked about the americans suffering under paranoia (thanks for correcting me). in the movie you could see some guys and a soccer mom, handling with all kinds of firearms while trying to convince MM of the necessity of a militia in the us.

I believe that the thing should read, "suffering from paranoia", or "suffering paranoia", rather than "suffering under paronia". English, it has been noted, is often a difficult language for foreigners to grasp. Keep trying.

It is also often difficult to gain an understanding of other cultures. It often turns out that the effort is worth while though, especially if you desire to communicate with members of that "other" culture. By the way, that situation you depicted with the Glock 18, which I had heard of, the ownership of uninstalled selector switch, is somewhat similar to that business of "conversion kits" you wrote of earlier. Once again, I note that the laws in Germany and the laws in the U.S. are different.

By the way, the German language has pecularities of it's own, especialy TECHNICAL GERMAN, as with as I recall, the SINGLE WORD that described the engine in some Porshe automobiles. Please, once again, bear with me re my spelling of German words. The engine would be described, in English, as a double overhead cam, gasoline engine. In a German Auto magazine I once came upon, it came out as follows. Frieknockingwheelerinluftbenzinemeutur. It was all quite literal, but strange to both the eye and the ear, at least it was the first time. When one thought about it a little, it did make sense.
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Old December 13, 2004, 09:04 PM   #50
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Thanks, someone finially said what I was trying to pass on, in a much more effective manner.

United states: 1
Germany: 0
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