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Old October 10, 2004, 05:42 PM   #1
rugerdude
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H to H tecniques

I've pretty much decided that if i'm in a confrontational scenario I wont have a firearm handy cause' I can't get a CCW (I'm 14) and my firearms are at my dad's house and I'm only there 4 days out of every two weeks. I have a 70lb. punching bag and I was wondering what kind of strikes I could practice with this that would be effective in ending a confrontation quickly with as little damage to the other dude as possible.

Thanks in advance,
Rugerdude
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Old October 10, 2004, 06:02 PM   #2
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Before all the die hards jump in let me give my two cents worth. A quick, explosive punch to the nose followed by immediate movement either escape or to next technique is probably the most bang for the buck. Japanese swordsmen practiced iaido (I think that's the term) of a quick draw and execution of technique. Practice stepping quickly into attack distance on the bag and immediately firing off a hard straight punch. Protect your hands with light bag gloves and strengthen wrists. Practice a hard solid fist like a knot of wood. Practice with either side and different distances, lead hand and trailing hand (front punch, reverse punch). Most effective if opponent is coming into you or at least not pulling away. Did I say hard fist and strong wrists? Now let the experts chime in with the rest.
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Old October 11, 2004, 12:15 PM   #3
Don Gwinn
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Actually, a very quick, direct punch to the nose is not a bad beginning at all. Makes sense to me. You'd do much, MUCH better if you had someone who knows what's doing to SHOW you how to do it, though. There's more to throwing a good punch than people realize. I know this because I'm not very good at it.

I know there's a very good MMA gym in your area, but I can't think of it. Either New Pride (guys from the old Lion's Den) or someone else.
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Old October 12, 2004, 02:05 PM   #4
Darkangel
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My only add to cal4D4 move is to make it a series of three fast blows. One to the nose and two hard to the gut(or nose, gut, jaw.) Then make a decision...... stay and play or get the heck outta Dodge.
good luck
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Old October 13, 2004, 07:09 PM   #5
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It's never too early to start thinking about protecting yourself and those around you.

Check out this vid clip for some visuals on what's possible...


http://www.canadas-best.com/images/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv
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Old October 13, 2004, 11:28 PM   #6
Don Gwinn
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I swear to you, Vaughn, I've watched that thing once a day since you posted it. Brilliant.
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Old October 14, 2004, 03:42 AM   #7
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Welcome to the club, Mr. Gwinn. I watch it as I have my morning coffee.
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Old October 14, 2004, 03:28 PM   #8
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i worked as a bouncer for 4 years and i've dabbled in a few different martial arts and actually trained quite a bit in krav maga but the only strike i ever actually used in an altercation was a good solid jab to the nose, the yes water, the vision is clouded by tears and pain, usually both hands immediately move to the face to protect it and you've now seriously improved your chances for flight if desired. the key is don't aim at the nose, aim for the back of the skull behind the nose. and believe me when i say it works the other way around too, i've lost more fights than i've won because i didn't react fast enough. lol
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Old October 14, 2004, 06:20 PM   #9
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I am by no means an expert martial artist, but just to keep this thread going I'll toss my 35 cents in (adjusted for inflation).

When someone is moving towards you with the intent to immediately attack you -- i.e. they are stepping towards you to either grapple or strike and are virtually at arms' reach -- your very first object should be to attack them first. Even if you can't commit to a strong, powerful punch, getting in the first strike is vitally important. The mindset of the person in that split second before they start to actually attack you is of total focus on their target. If they intend to punch you in the head, they are focusing on your head and planning their attack (yes, even in a fraction of a second). Quickly closing the distance and striking while the person is in this frame of mind will not only greatly increase the chances of landing the blow, but will likely take them completely by surprise and disorient them enough for you to either escape or continue to incapacitate. A shuffle-step and a lightning jab to the nose is a great opener. Remember that if your aim is to stun or disorient and land a blow before they do, maximum power is not your goal, speed is.


Of course the internet is not a replacement for actual real-life training. Get yourself someone who knows what they're doing, and work with them. A few hours a week of light-contact sparring will take you very far.
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Old October 14, 2004, 07:43 PM   #10
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Question. What was the point of the dude holding his face (or it at least looked like he was holding his face, videos are usually darker than they should be on my computer cause' the brightness adjust don't work) It seems like all that would do is cloud your vision. I have however learned alot on my own while hittin' the ole' punching bag, one being don't aim for the target, but behind it to maximize power. The thing is is it moves to dang much! It's only 70lbs. and when I hit it it usually hops all over the place, I even took a very large chunk out of the wooden beam it's hanging on because as it hops up the chain wears into the beam.
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Old October 14, 2004, 08:17 PM   #11
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RD, the point of the boxer latching on to his head was to provide a block to incoming punches. If the hand/arm is in a blocking position, but not in contact with the head, the impacting fist will simply drive your blocking hand/arm into you. The net effect is the same.....either the other guy punches you directly or you punch yourself with his punch providing the power. It's technically called Indirect Percussion (to use a rock-working term). With the your hand in contact with your skull, you have a cushion between the incoming haymaker and your cerebrum that will dampen the effects of the blow. It also provides an index point so you know where your hands are when the bad things are happening really fast.

I believe that's Crazy Monkey boxing being displayed.

Also note that the guy is in the end of a hall. By boxing himself into a corner, he has eliminated 75% of the possible angles of attack, leaving himself more of a fighting chance. Tactics like this can make the difference between living and dying. If possible, put your back up to a wall so people can't sneak in and blindside you while your working the opponent dead ahead.

www.selfdefenseforums.com
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Old October 16, 2004, 01:00 AM   #12
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Rugerdude, (Cool name!) I’ve been watching this thread trying to figure out whether or not I want to post an answer. I’m left with, somewhat, mixed emotions by your message; however, I’m unquestionably impressed by your personal refusal to resort to deadly force. In today’s excessively violent world, your personal scruples are meritorious; and you deserve to be commended on them.

You’re only 14; and I’m not going to advocate that you strike the first blow. (I’m hoping, perhaps not against hope, that your high school world isn’t that violent; and something of, ‘Marquis of Queensbury’ rules still apply.) My credentials for this discussion should be beyond impeachment: I was a kid who fought his way through all of high school and the first two years of college. As a matter of fact it’s taken me a long time to learn how NOT to fight.

In my experience most of high school fisticuffs hold, pretty much, to arm’s reach tactics. Ain’t been in too many fistfights recently; and maybe things have changed; but, in my day, it was the unusual fighter who would prefer to, ‘take you down’ and turn a fistfight into a grappling assault. We usually would go at each other, ‘toe-to-toe’. Now, if you bend the usual rules of engagement just a little bit, any fistfight is a whole lot easier to prevail at than the kind of low down and dirty, ‘mat work’ we used to do when I studied Kodokan Judo.

Here’s one of my favorite tricks for people who like to punch: FADE! That’s right, I said; ‘FADE!’ Then pick your target and strike. In order to understand what I’m trying to put across, you first have to understand, ‘What’ a good punch is. A, ‘good punch’ involves the maximum delivery of blunt force shock from one opponent to another. Ideally it consists of a lot more than just arm strength. If you’re going to hit hard you need to get your body weight behind the blow; and the blow has to make contact while you, still, have about 3” of reach left in your arm. The hardest punches I’ve ever managed to throw, all, made contact just as my lead foot went forward with the punch and touched down on the floor. In other words, if you’re going to hit hard: The punch, the shoulders, and the step forward must work together.

I, always, felt that the real art to boxing is to be able to, ‘plant yourself’ in order to hit hard while at the same time staying flexible and, ‘light-footed’ enough to avoid being hit really hard. I can’t teach you this in a post. Hell I may, now, be too old to even do it myself – anymore. I am able to say, however, that I would recognize good boxing technique if I were to see it again.

(The best fighter I ever watched was a boxer by the name of Jimmy Young. Why Jimmy didn’t go farther in the fight game I’ll never know. (Personally, I think he, ‘got robbed!’) The young Mike Tyson had it for awhile, too – Especially when Cus D’Amato was training him. As a matter of fact Cus’ famous, ‘peek-a-boo’ fighting stance involves a lot of what I’m talking about here.)

Now that you know what a, ‘good punch’ consists of you are in a position to understand, ‘How’ to minimize its effect! We’re back to, ‘FADE!’ again. If you fade on your opponent’s punches, it’s going to be very difficult for him to deliver the energy and blunt force trauma he needs to inflict upon you with in order to prevail. A second advantage, also, occurs: When you fade on a punch, your opponent is forced to reach out for you.

Looking back over the years the biggest, if not the toughest, guy I ever fought clearly knew better than to overextend his reach in order to get at me; and I, with equal clarity, knew that I was going to have to get him to start reaching if I were to take him out. I fought him at the limit of his reach for an extended period of time; and, even though he otherwise might have, he didn’t hurt me at all. I only went inside when his arms were out, did what I had to do, and immediately slipped off one of his shoulder points – never straight back from his vertical body centerline! Between reaching for me, being forced to turn his body in order to line me up, and a growing impatience to impress the crowd with his formidability, well, he finally went down hard.

What’s the point? The point is that it’s not so much WHAT you hit; it’s not so much HOW hard you can punch; it’s not even important how much daily bag work you do – It’s whether or not you truly UNDERSTAND, ‘What’ a fistfight is actually all about.

If you strike first, if you, ‘cold cock’ another student, you’re going to get into trouble. However, (1) if you understand that anytime you’re within the other guy’s reach you’re in real danger of being hurt, (2) if you recognize that the other guy’s vertical body centerline is a very dangerous place for you to remain, and (3) if you master the art of forcing the other guy to reach out for you, (especially across his own body) then, you’re going to be a very difficult boxer to defeat.

Furthermore once you’ve learned to step to the side as an opponent moves in on you, you’ll discover a whole new world of targets, including: armpits, the rib cage, the back of the knee, and (well) others. If it’s serious and you need to take an aggressor out quickly, work on his hands – This should bring the confrontation to an abrupt end. By the way, if anyone ever pulls a knife on you, many of the same techniques apply.

(Just make sure you don’t heed that very bad example in the above video: Never expose your hands to attack - That’s what you want the other guy to do. Stay off the wall, too - That’s your, ‘fade distance’; and it’s, also, where you want the other guy to be! Conversely, don’t follow an opponent into a corner; he’s forcing you onto his vertical body centerline by placing himself in a strong defensive position. A corner defense may work with barehanded techniques; but it, sure as Hell, won’t do you any good if you’re exhausted or facing an opponent with a knife.)

You might want to give some thought to dividing the time you spend working on that bag between, both, bag, and mat work: Chokes, wrist, arm, finger, and legs locks are always good to know. Just make sure you leave all that hardware at your dad’s house. A, ‘real man’ never resorts to deadly force – first. Any murderous ape can do that. Personally I’ve always found, ‘mano a mano’ confrontations to be a lot more satisfying.
Sometimes, like an incident that happened to me in college, a guy you get into a really good fight with can turn out to be an excellent friend later on. That happens, too! If you want to add another dimension to that punching bag, surround it by, at least, four softballs suspended from the ceiling. Try moving around the bag while hitting it without getting smacked by any of the balls. Wow, this feels like, ‘memory lane’. When I was your age that’s how I used to practice!



PS: I don’t know. The more I watch that video, the more quixotic I feel. I’ve been trying to direct my remarks to the intellect of an impressionable young man who is working to determine his way in life. The more I watch that video, the more I realize that today’s world offers few if any choices. Children are now being taught fighting methods and techniques that I wasn’t exposed to until I was, at least, in my mid-twenties. It’s not getting any easier out there; is it! Maybe I should stick to Sunday school.
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Old October 16, 2004, 02:51 AM   #13
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Good post Arc.


I've recognized the need for quick blows to important places once...my bro wanted to fight over something, so I landed a powerful blow to the gut. He almost vomited. It can get ugly.

But the thing is, I've never been how to fight. Ever. Only technique my dad showed me was the grip on the top of the shoulders outside the neck. But that's a hold...

thanks for the advice. Once in HS PE a guy was harrasing me. Then one day I'm minding my own business, and he surprises me around a corner. Then I landed him a punch in the stomach. Bad news. He boxed me, but I had no muscle then (only a little more now) so I had to absorb the blows with my legs but then I saw a chance and ran away. Told the teacher, only got suspended for the rest of the day, he got the rest + next day.

I learned then...avoidance is always a winner because survivors live because they ran away...
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Old October 16, 2004, 09:49 AM   #14
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Exercises for strengthening yourself....

It was mentioned that you should do exercises to strengthen your writst. What exercises would be good for that?

Also, what other types of exercises should one do besides bag and mat work if they want to be prepared to defend themselves?
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Old October 17, 2004, 05:12 PM   #15
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Tai Chi Chuan has an immediate carryover value to Karate. Swimming is, always, good; and some forms of springboard diving, or conventional gymnastics will help to keep your total body reflexes sharp. Be careful with wrist and hand exercises; it’s very easy to overdo it and inflame tendons or ligaments.

There’s a whole world of: stretching, warm-up, and kata exercises associated with each of the martial arts. This information is available everywhere, today, and should be easy to locate. If I had to chose, just, one form of preparatory/ancillary exercise it would be the, ‘long forms’ of Tai Chi.
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Old October 17, 2004, 05:54 PM   #16
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Thanks for the replys everyone. I don't really expect to be involved in a fight and I almost certainly wouldn't start one however I believe in being prepared. I kinda like boxing because it seems more......realistic. Landing a good solid punch seems easier to do if say you've just been hit than doing some sort of roundhouse kick but that's just MHO. Oh, and I have yet to see a fight at my highschool (but then again I've only been there for 6 weeks) I have had some close calls outside of school though both involved two people harassing me while I was riding my bike.
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Old October 17, 2004, 06:14 PM   #17
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Some great advice. I would add that you are at an age now where you should engage is a regular physical fitness regimen. It does not need to be elaborate, just regular. Push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups and running will give you everything you need.

While a sound education in unarmed combat is important, having the necessary strength and stamina are critical to winning a confrontation. A regular fitness program will not only put power in your strikes and give you the endurance to stay in a fight, it will help prevent injury and promote self-confidence. Being confident in yourself and your abilities not only helps you win the fight, it prevents one from starting.

Looking back, if there is one thing about my life that I would change, I would have started exercising sooner.
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Old October 27, 2004, 07:56 PM   #18
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Youve gotten some pretty solid advise thus far, so I am unsure what to say without confusing you. I have been a martial artist some years now, and am loyal to no specific fighting style. I basicaly take what works for me. Getting punched in the nose sucks, sucks bad, and would work pretty reliably on an untrained fighter, but being the first to punch to the face could result in a hasty asswhooping. I haven't been in many streetfights, as a martial artist I believe it is paramount to avoid them at all costs, with great power comes great responsibility, just like carying a gun. So the only acceptable times to fight in my eyes are when you are in immediate danger with no way out, or you are comming to the aid of someone else. With that said I was in a situation with no way out, I am a decent grappler, but don't like going to the ground as I am 6'1" and 140lbs, but most fights end up there. The assailent was substancially bigger than me, and enraged, he threw a punch at my dome, my size allows me much quickness, as does the training i hav had. As his punch was traveling towards my dome, I threw a round house kick to his knee, which buckled. As he fell his punch strayed from target, aleviating me from having to block. He was still facing me, one hand went to his knee, the other to break his fall. He was in a squat when I put my left hand behind his head, and threw an elbow with my right arm to his face. He fell over, I left, fast.

I didn't win because of any move I threw, I won because I was able to think through the adrenaline, and act, not react. A clear presence of mind is the most important thing in a fight, second is agressiveness. Practice mainly with sparring with a friend. This helps you think in the moment.
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Old October 29, 2004, 10:33 PM   #19
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OK, one problem with fighting in todays world. Yes, you can punch the nose, probably ruin the Gremlin's day...however, what it the Gremlin has a blood borne disease, (HIV, Hep). You might have won the battle, but the long term effects might not be what you would like...
Find out the little gremlin has hiv and you notice after you punched him that your knuckles are bleeding, you are going to spend a lot of sleepless nights "wondering".

A fast jab to the throat drops the biggest, badest, a snap kick to the knee cap will tear their knee off, months of traction, surgery, etc.

Finally, if you do want to punch the face, use a slight hook, catch them back where the jaw hinges...this will shatter the jaw with the least amount of effort!
A blow to the lower right hand side of the body, below the ribs, try a downward shot, will bruise/crush the liver...if you can crush it, they die, if it's bruised, they drop!
A blow to the side of the spine, over a little on either side, is a kidney shot, again, if you can tear the kidney, "death", otherwise they usally drop!
Now, realize that you are subject to the same effects if "they" know where/how to hit!
A thumb shoved through the eye socket will disable/kill...at the very least blind them "forever".

My advice, apologize like hell and boggy, put one foot in front of the other and get the ell" out of there...
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Old November 9, 2004, 12:09 AM   #20
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I've been training in TaeKwonDo and Brazilian JuJitsu and Muay thai for a while and the best thing you can do is get into a reputable school where they teach real-life tactics. You probably won't push yourself as hard as someone else will push you and it is great knowing that you can kick someone's you know what , although you don't necessarily let everyone else know that and you shouldn't act cocky. BTW, that hand over face stuff is crazy monkey. its typically only done to block punches when you are shooting in for a clinch. It was also invented by Rodney King in South America.
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Old November 9, 2004, 12:36 AM   #21
Arc Angel
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Yipes! Come on, now. Should we, really, be telling a 14 year old boy how to do things like this?

Maybe the comments about striking the throat and shorting out kneecaps should be edited out. Throat strikes can kill – period! That’s, ‘Why’ I specifically didn’t mention them in any of the above posts.

Moreover how many high school fights deserve to end up with blown-out knees? How about toning it down? We shouldn’t be telling a young boy things like this!
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Old November 9, 2004, 01:57 AM   #22
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It is a tough call, what to teach or tell someone, somebody said above basically you MUST use any training or weapon RESPONSIBLY. Getting picked on seems to be an important part of escalted violence in school. In the 4th grade a kid was found to have a razor blade on the bus because some kids were picking on him.

I don't know if this was answered but most "Heavy bags" should have a place to put a rope or chain on the bottom also so if you don't have anybody to hold the bag, you can attach it to the floor, or to plates from a weight set. Boxing is a good discipline, but the longer a "streetfight" lasts the more likely it is on the ground. Wrestling if a sport at your school is a good start. It should be inexpensive for you if that is an issue, you will probably need a sports physical, and they teach speed, power, and strength, I know that power and strength seem similar, but they are different. They should be able to teach you to "shoot" on somebody basically put him on his stomach while you are on your knees and give you time to escape. Unless the person hits their head on something hard like even a tile type floor or the corner of the desk, which happened in a one punch fist fight at a highschool and the kid died, it may be the cheapest, and quickest bang for your buck. If you can before wrestling season starts get a month or two of Martial arts training it will help.

I would not try any type of "killer move", instep stomps if some is bearhugging you, or throwing your head backwards to hit their nose and just coming forward and stepping on their toes and pushing or the nose punch, the basic stuff said above all works. If being puched at hands up elbows close to the body, and keep your chin as close to your chest. I never attempted a kick above the knee because I could not pull it off, and getting your foot grabbed and landing on the ground was not for me. Learning your limititations is a very good thing. If you are not fast but strong you can train that way and work on your weakness, and soon it becomes your strength, and you keep doing that, and you will progress in most anything in life.

To strengten wrists and forearms if you have dumbells sit put your forearm on your leg your wrist over your kneeat least or and relax your wrist and then pull your hand up. Do it with your inside of your forearm also. Alot of this stuff I need a pic to visualise. Search on wrist curls, reverse wrist curls. Grasp a tennis ball tightly and relaxing also helps grip strength. Me and my brother got exercise books from the library. There is a trend in equipmentless training to keep costs low. They may have some self defense books, that may help with footwork. You can try a bookstore for some books, I am trying to keep costs low so you can spend it on ammo for target/plinking, or whatever. Good luck!

I guess when we sparred like that we were sissys. We had Headguards, Martial arts gloves, mouthpieces, and footguards.
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Old November 9, 2004, 01:37 PM   #23
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Sorry Arc Angel: your right, I probably shouldn't have mentioned the down, dirty effective stuff...

However, a little research on the internet and he should be able to figure this stuff out. Again, my advice, apologize like *ell and get the *ell out!

So, Rugerdude, you only fight if there is no other option...then, anything is fair!

Now, a less lethal attack is to direct your kick to the ankle bone...the bone protudes on the side of the foot. A quick snap kick to the bone will disable them...There are something like 211 bones in the human body, each foot has 52/54 bones...these are small bones and break very easily!

As for punching, right where the sterum seperates, you will feel a small bone protuding (chest). The ribs then flow down from this point.

A good shot just below this bone, will knock the wind out of them...they lay on the ground trying to breath as they try to throw up at the same time...intresting effect...usualy non-lethal, unless they have a heart or other medical condition!
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Old November 10, 2004, 11:11 PM   #24
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Nothing will teach you unarmed self-defense better than a GOOD martial arts school. (Or getting into "real" fights, I suppose.) I thought I was a badass until I took my first martial arts classes in high school. After trying a few styles, I ended up studying Muay Thai kickboxing for a number of years. Learning how to strike is one thing, but placement of development of that strike are probably 80% or more of the action. Also, learning to take a punch is helpful. And I don't mean hurt yourself until it don't hurt no more; you LEARN how to take a punch, which muscles to tense, how to shift your body so the other guy's hit lands in a less vital area, etc.

There are tons of styles if you prefer to punch, kick, holds and locks, or any combination. Kenpo can teach you some MEAN holds and locks. Ninjutsu is a real martial art too, not just in fiction. Difficult to find an instructor, but the fighting style is almost indefensible if you are serious. Thing is... they like to break bones!
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Old November 13, 2004, 05:42 AM   #25
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So RG what are you thinking on doing, and what other info or clarification do you need?

MiK, I took kenpo, but it was changed a little bit. The owner of the gym would have had to pay franchising fees, if he used the exact same info as was taught by the kenpo association. I mainly did one on one lessons. It was on saturday and it was an employee who taught me, and he liked to spar so we would usually get in about 30 extra mins. of sparring a lesson. The kenpo I learned was very modern in stances and punches and kicks. Not very flashy, but good results, and stessed footwork and movement.
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