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Old August 8, 2000, 01:55 PM   #1
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I am looking for a semi auto version of the BAR (1918a3). I saw them awhile ago, no idea where to look now. Any ideas people?

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Old August 8, 2000, 06:05 PM   #2
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I think it's Ohio Ordinance. Haven't been able to find them on the web.

Beautiful rifle. Nice and heavy. But, expensive.

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Old August 9, 2000, 05:49 AM   #3
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Thanks, been saving up for one... Should have enough now.

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Old August 9, 2000, 05:09 PM   #4
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Yep Ohio Ordnance. They are freaking sweet. The two I saw at a gun show were close to $3000 a piece.

Alas, Poor Orso does not have that kind of bread. Go get it "Dead"it is a kick a$$ weapon. The machined receiver is HEAVY heavy. The whole package w/ mags and ammo has to be over 20 lbs. The parkerized wwII version seemed heavier than the wwI version.

My wife's grandfather was in Europe during wwII. He was a rifle squad leader. He loved the BAR said it was the greatest thing since sliced when bullets started flying, because it laid down a good base of fire. The only problem with it he said was that he could never get anybody to want to carry the damn thing. Plus everybody in the squad carried ammo for it too.

All in all i think the only drawback is lack of a quick change barrel. Too bad JMB didnt think of that.

For me I have set my sights somewhat lower on an "Izzy FALO" I figure in principle the Izzy can do the same thing as the BAR deliver 20 rounds of 147-150 grain .308 caliber bullets at a nice fun clip / rate of fire.

orso
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Old August 9, 2000, 05:50 PM   #5
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I gotta find one first!!! Getting it with my dad (goes in my name) He used to "have" one while in the Army!! I NEVER heard anything bad about the BAR, except the weight. Will have to wait and see if I can find one out there.

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Old August 9, 2000, 07:59 PM   #6
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http://www.valkyriearms.com/bar.htm
Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) .30 caliber
(This Product Has Been Discontinued)

Group Industries BATF approved receiver.
Assembled with all re-conditioned military parts.
Manually Operated Rifle (MOR).
Fires from an open bolt.
Straight pull bolt, magazine-fed repeater. Gas system is disabled.
.30-'06 caliber.
Transfers on a 4473 Yellow form. No tax stamp required.
Includes bipod, flash suppressor, and a 20 round magazine.
Only $1,800.

Note: A true semi-automatic version of the BAR is now manufactured by Ohio Ordnance for $2,650.
They can be contacted at:

Ohio Ordnance
P.O. Box 687
Chardon, Ohio 44024

Phone: (216) 285-3481
Fax: (216) 286-8571

Please mention that you learned about it from Valkyrie Arms.

ding ding!!!
http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/

Semi-Auto BAR
This article appeared in the
1997 Surplus Firearms V5
by Garry James

The genius of John Browning is truly humbling, If I had to choose the greatest firearms inventor in history, it would
have to be the man from Ogden, Utah. He is responsible for more practical military and sporting handgun, shotgun,
rifle and machine gun designs than just about anyone I can bring to mind, including Christopher Spencer, Hiram
Maxim, Paul Mauser, Ferdinand Mannlicher and James Paris Lee.

One of his crowning achievements is probably the best light machine gun ever devised, the Browning Automatic
Rifle, or "BAR". Of course, this 20-shot .30-06 was designed as a full auto arm, and because of its Class III status is
not open to ownership for many of us who live in the more unenlightened states of the Union.

Now, however, thanks to Bob Landies of Ohio Ordnance, we have a semi-automatic version of this famed arm that is
purchasable by just about anyone who can legally own a firearm.

Before we get into a discussion of this new "surplus" rifle, let's take a look at the gun's origins and history.

The Browning Automatic Rifle was designed and built during World War I in response to a need by U.S. forces for
a light "machine rifle" for offensive work. In fact, it was hoped the BAR might help break the stalemate that existed
when Pershing's troops arrived in France. The theory was for large numbers of doughboys armed with BARs to
employ "walking fire" against the Hnu trenches. This consisted of soldiers advancing toward the enemy, firing with
each step of the right foot, producing a torrent of bullets, which would, theoretically, drastically intimidate German
return fire.

Browning demonstrated his prototype BAR on February 27, 1917, about a year after he started work on the design.
It was an immediate hit with ordnance authorities, and was enthusiastically adopted. The first BARs were
manufactured by Colt, Winchester, and Marlin Rockewell, and appeared in the supply line in February, 1918.

The "Browning Automatic Rifle Model of 1918" was a hefty affair, weighing in at some 16 pounds. Chambered for
the U.S. .30-06 service cartridge, it held 20 rounds in its removable box magazine. The gun measured 47 inches
long, with a 24 inch barrel. The butt and forearm were of walnut, and the rifle was set up for sling carry and support.
Sights involved a fron blade and rear ladder style, adjustable to 1500 yards.

BARs were gas-operated and fired from an open bolt, the bolt being locked by a toggle link on the rear of the bolt,
which lifted against a shoulder on the top, inside of the reciever. The cyclic rate of fire was 600 rounds per minute,
but practically, the actual payload was between 80 and 100 rpm.

The Model 1818 had a selector switch that allowed the gun to be fired either full- or semi-auto. Because of the gun's
weight, recoil was not prohibitive in either mode, and accuracy was found to be good.

Some BARs were issued in time to see service at the front, the first occassion being when Lieutenant Val A.
Browning of the U.S. 79th Division, John Browning's son, fired the gun against German lines on September 13,
1918.

Browning Automatic Rifles continued to be used by the 79th through the Meuse-Argonne offensive and in the
capture of Montfaucon. The armistice of November, 1918 silenced all guns, though the BAR proved to be so
popular, it was kept in service. Some 85,000 BARs had been produced under the original contract.

In 1920, Fabrique Nationale in Belgium obtained rights to produce a version of the BAR that they marketed as the
Herstel light machine gun in several calibers.

Though World War I had ended, the BAR continued to make a name for itself during the 1920s with law
enforcement and desperados alike. Clyde Barrow, of Bonnie and Clyde fame, for instance, was particularly
enamored of them, though, ironically, Deputy Ted Hinton used a BAR as a backup arm when the duo was fatally
ambushed by Special Investigator Frank Hamer.

In June, 1937 the BAR was modified by adding a folding bipod mounted on the gas cylinder and by fitting a hinged
metal flap to the buttplate to help support the gun when it was fired from the shoulder. Designated the BAR Model
1918A1, the arm was now regarded more as a light machine gun than as a "machine rifle."

Three years later the piece was again revamped and retitled the BAR 1918A2. The semi-auto mode was eliminated,
and the gun changed by altering the mechanism to allow two cyclic rates of fire - 550 and 350 rpm. As well, the
bipod was removed from the gas cylinder and repositioned to the muzzle, where it was held in place by a sturdy steel
flash hider. A plastic buttstock was introduced in 1942, and in late 1944 a carrying handle was made available.
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Old August 9, 2000, 08:03 PM   #7
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https://secure1.relevantsites.com/OhioOrd/Orders.nsf/Order

The cost of the 1918A3 is $2,650.00.
We require half down, and the balance upon delivery. Upon receipt of payment we will send you an invoice with the serial number of your firearm. If
you pay in full up front, we will pick up the shipping.
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Old August 9, 2000, 08:13 PM   #8
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The BAR if I remember my history right was developed for use in WWI but I don't think it was every used in WWI before the war ended.

I can remember my uncle telling me stories of WWII. He carried a BAR with the 1st Marine Div. it had good surpressive fire and was loved by everyone. That is unless you had to carry it.

In Vietnam I've seen ARVN soldiers carrying BAR's think about weighing 100 plus lbs. and carrying a 20 lb. weapon??

I carried a M-60 machine gun first four months in Vietnam weight 23 lbs. (100 rd. linked belts) BAR 20 lbs. (20 rd. Magazines)

Ask youself which weapon would you want to carry setting in a fox hole waiting to get hit a BAR with 20 rd mags. or a 60 with a 500 rd. belt and the assistant gunner waiting to link up another 1000 rds.

There's better weapons for the weight the BAR was good for its time but it has passed its time.

Never fired one but I think the current SAW for the squad level sounds like the cats meow.

Anyone know what the basic load is for a squad SAW?

Turk


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Old August 10, 2000, 05:41 AM   #9
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Turk heard the Mag 58 way better than the 60.
MG-42 Good as anything else IMHO.

In stationary foxhole would rather have a GE MINIGUN!

DEAD, I was giving this weapon some thought in the past but heard some very bad stories about QC. Things like jamming all the time, parkarizing done on some parts and not others, never confirmed any of this but also heard of lawsuit being filed against Ohio by the owner who allegedly had these problems. Check it out carefull before laying down your money. See what kind of warranty it has and see what they will do if it starts to jam all the time. Find someone who bought one and has shot it ask their opinion, a lot of the rags write up everything good. Not flaming the makers I just am relaying what I heard about 2-3 years ago.
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Old August 12, 2000, 05:53 PM   #10
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Anyone know what the basic load is for a squad SAW?[/quote]

Yep, it's a sucky little .223 round. Not a great MG round. I think they should have come up with a bigger round for the SAW. .308 might be a bit big for the role, but certainly they could have developed something like 6.5mm or so by about 45 and had one hell of a round.

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Old August 13, 2000, 02:15 AM   #11
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.223 is a good man stopper, esspecially from a full-auto. The M249 have a very high rate of fire! Just need to aim and well you know.....

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Old August 13, 2000, 02:37 AM   #12
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.223 is not great against body armor, .223 is not great against light vehicle armor. .223 is not great against structures, and resultantly, the people behind them.

.223 is GREAT out in the desert of Iraq fighting against poorly equiped and unarmored Iraqis that don't have much to hide behind. Yes, .223 will stop a person, but why take chances just for the sake of not having to train your guys as much? Using .223 is a poor excuse to avoid real serious training.

Personally I hate and despise .223, but I do see how it can have a role to some degree. I just don't see that role as being used in a SAW. something like 6.5mm would have been much more logical a choice. America doesn't use Germany's squad layout though. America prefers the MG to be the supresive fire weapon, where the Germans prefered the rifles to do that job and the MG to do the actual killing. Considering the size of the .223 it could be stable with a 6.5x50 or something along those lines and still hold a good amount of them.

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Old August 13, 2000, 03:14 PM   #13
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I swa 3 honest to god full auto BAR's at a gun show in denver a while back.. if money was no object I'd shell out the 18-25K needed to own one and do all the ugly paperwork.

Two were colts and one was a winchester marked property US Navy.. one of the colts was a prison guard gun and featured an ALUMINUM buttstock with the prison name (it was a shorthened stock and the barrel was cut down to the end of the gas cylider.. funky looking and HEAVY but maybe I watched to many re-runs of Combat with Cpl. Kirby laying down the lead...

The BAR didn't have the sexiness of the tommy gun in the movies and was harder to get (because they were STILL IN USE) and often in films instead of a real BAR you'll see an FN model D BAR (see kelly's heros) with a finned barrel. But to me the rifle/LMG that went through 3 conflicts WW1, ww2, korea has got to be one of the best weapons ever used by the US.

I wish I had one.

Dr.Rob
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Old August 14, 2000, 12:18 PM   #14
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Most Marine Corps fire teams will be armed with the M249 SAW. The SAW can use linked ammunition or a 30 round M-16 magazine. The standard load is a 200 round linked ammunition drum. The SAW gunner may carry an additional drum on him with the remaining fire team carrying reserve ammo.
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Old August 15, 2000, 11:55 PM   #15
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My cousin carried one in Vietnam for 18 months and said it was a great weapon compared to M1's, M3 Grease Guns and Carbines rest of the guys in the squad carried. Only complaint was that the rifle and 8 spare mags (plus several more on back)was a bit heavy to carry in the jungle... especially since he is only 5' 6" and about 135 lb in those days. He was just glad he didn't have to carry the Browning 1919.

Also, one of my uncle carried one for 5 months during Korean War and said he was scared to death of "that" gun and only fired it in semi-auto and fired it full auto only when his trigger was not released fast enough. He didn't know much about the gun because he only got one day training with it before being sent to the front line. Only thing he remembers was having to carry that heavy rifle and heavy ammo up and down hills. Can you imagin a 5' 3" and 110 pound 17 year old carrying the BAR and ammo in combat?
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Old August 16, 2000, 02:25 PM   #16
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by taco:
[B]My cousin carried one in Vietnam for 18 months and said it was a great weapon compared to M1's, M3 Grease Guns and Carbines rest of the guys in the squad carried.

Taco,

I'm not aware of any US Infantry line units (Army or Marine) carrying M-1's, M-3's, M-1 Carbines or BAR's during the Vietnam War. Early on Advisors (MACV) and SF did carry such working with the ARVN but not regular line units.

What unit was he with?

Turk

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Old August 16, 2000, 02:57 PM   #17
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Turk, the very early US involvement in Vietnam was very early in the sixties, and the M-16 hadn't become all that widespread. Still, he's probably thinking of Korea.

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Old August 17, 2000, 08:44 PM   #18
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Turk/Dangus: Sorry, I should have made myself clear. Everybody in my family served or is still serving in the Army (two cousins served in the Marine) of ROK (Korea) since end of WWII. ROK solders serving in Vietnam used US supplied WWII weapons until 1968-69. M1's and Carbines were still used by reserve units until just recently and M3 Grease guns are still issued to Tank units. In Vietnam the most popular weapon among ROK solders were M2 Carbine.
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Old August 18, 2000, 05:58 PM   #19
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TURK
My father went to NAM in may of 63 with a m-1 garand,later he picked up a thompson.He was not a advisor but a member of a marine helicopter assault unit 3000 men.They received 2 unit citations for combat,but all the history books will tell you the first combat troops from the marines came ashore in 65

forgot to add combat troops from army and marine units were in country around 61,Advisors from atleast 58

[This message has been edited by KML (edited August 18, 2000).]
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Old August 19, 2000, 01:37 PM   #20
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Also, history books leave out that the Last US Troops left NAM in '75.

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Old August 19, 2000, 04:59 PM   #21
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Taco,

My compliments on your families service. Before I got to my unit in 1968 I was told they had worked with a ROK unit a couple of times. The guys that had nothing but praise for the ROK troops. While I was there we never worked together but where our Area of Operations ended the ROK took over. I think it may of been called the Capital Division too may years ago to remember.

KML,

If you’re trying to tell me there was a 3000 man U.S. Marine Infantry ground unit in Vietnam in 1963 please give me the unit name and where it originally departed from. You stated it’s not in the history book. You got that right.

The chronology of events with insertion of Infantry troops into Vietnam.

January 8,1965, 2,000 ROK troops arrive

March 8, 1965, A US Marine Infantry, 9th Marine Expeditionary Bridgade arrives. Marine advisers had been incoutry since 1954

May 3, 1965, The US Army, 173rd Airborne Brigade (Sep) arrives, 1st & 2nd Battalions of the 503rd Airborne Infantry. The Herd ended up in 1968 with 4 Airborne Infantry Battalions and one Mechanized Infantry Battalion plus its other smaller assets.

Build up starts

In December of 1972 there were no US Infantry ground troops left. All Infantry manuever units were either ARVN or ROK. The last US ground combat troops departed Aug. 12th 1972

March 29th 1973. The last American troops leave South Vietnam leaving only a Defense Attache Office.

Have a good day.

Turk



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Old August 19, 2000, 08:25 PM   #22
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Kinda pathetic that we cared only enough to give the Koreans WW2 issue stuff.

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Old August 19, 2000, 08:58 PM   #23
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Sorry i don not have a scanner and i do not know were you can look it up but if you can look up
MARINE TASK ELEMENT 79.3.3.6
(FORMERLY MARINE TASK UNIT 79.3.5)
SUB UNIT#2,MARINE AIR BASE
SQUADRON SIXTEEN 9 APRIL 1962-30 NOVEMBER 1964
Marine medium helicopter squadron 362
9 april - 31 july 1962
Marine medium helicopter squadron 163
1 august - 11 january 1963
Marine medium helicopter sqaudron 162
12 january - 6 june 1963
1 july - 7 october 1964
Marine medium helicopter squadron 361
1 oct 1963 - 31 january 1964
Marine medium helicopter sqadron 364
1 febuary - 30 june 1964
Marine medium helicopter sqadron 365
8 october - 30 november 1964

CITATION:

For extremely meritorios performance of duty and conspicuous intrepidty in action while sering in the Republic of Vietnam,that were involved in combat operations against insurgent guerrilla forces(viet cong),from 9 april 1962 to 30 november 1964.These units,operating from unprepared landing zones ranging from sea level to altitudes of 6000 feet,and flying over swaps,rugged mountains and treacherous jungle terrain, supported helicopter assault operations conducted by Forces of the Republic of Vietnam against heavily defended enemy positions in the First,Second and Thired Corps areas of operations.Often encountering extremely hazaardous weather conditios,they supported daily operations conducted by the Vietnamese from unsecured landing zones which freuently exposed them to hostile fire at extremely close range.The heroic actions,courageous devotion to duty and exceptionally meritorios service of these highly efficient Marine Corps teams were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

I cannot locate the second citation,a lot of my fathers stuff was put away after he passed away.

In the history of USS PRINCETON CV-37/LPH 5 in aril 1962 she delivered Marine helicopters to Soc Trang in the Mekong Delta area of the Republic of South Vietnam.Also says advisors thought not the air wing ,combat troops and ground crews.

KEVIN



[This message has been edited by KML (edited August 19, 2000).]

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Old August 20, 2000, 01:02 AM   #24
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Turk:
I had two cousins serve in Vietnam with Tiger unit (other was Dragon unit). First cousin served for 19 months from 1966-67 and second served for 11 months in 1969-70. Second cousin spent some of his time with an Australian unit as an "observer" to learn their methods and capabilities but they both did not have much interactions with US solders.

Dangus:
First cousin used a BAR in Vietnam while second cousin used a M2 Carbine (his unit started to receive some M16s but most solders prefered to keep their M1s and Carbines). They both felt that their US supplied WWII weapons were good but ammos they were receiving from US were in very poor condition (left overs from WWII and/or Korea?). They had to check every cartridge can to make sure ammo inside was usable because in some shipments over 50% of the ammo was not usable. Both felt that some solders were killed due to these poor ammo.

Most ROK combat solders were profesional solders and volunteered for Vietnam assignments to get combat points for future appointments so they were very aggressive and motivated in the field.
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Old August 20, 2000, 08:45 AM   #25
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Kevin,

The citation states who the air elements were transporting. I'm not disputing that Marine, Air Force or Army chopper units we in Vietnam in the early 60's only that Infantry units did not arrive until 1965 (besides advisers and SF units.)

From the Citation
"""""conducted by Forces of the Republic of Vietnam against heavily defended enemy positions in the First,Second and Thired Corps areas of operations."""""

It looks to me they were not Marine grunts.

I have a deep respect for the pilots and air crews that flew these birds in all the branches of the services. In the early years I'm quite sure things were quite spartan for these Marine crews.


"""""Also in the history of USS PRINCETON CV-37/LPH 5 in aril 1962 she delivered Marine helicopters to Soc Trang in the Mekong Delta area of the Republic of South Vietnam.Also says advisors thought not the air wing ,combat troops and ground crews."""""

These combat troops were probably ARVN troops.

Have a good day.

Turk

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