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Old November 6, 2002, 01:46 AM   #1
Lawnmower
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Broomhandle Mausers

Questions:

1. If a Broomhandle Mauser has the ability to accept the holster stock on the pistol grip, is it legal to attach such stock (w/o SBR registration) due to Curio & Relic designation? I have seen some "German" Mausers w/ no markings at all other than the serial number.
2. What problems are common with Red 9 Broomhandle Mausers?
3. Does a Broomhandle with detachable mag in semi exist?
4. Parts availability?
5. Does anyone have any experience with the current batch of Chinese "9" Broomhandles?

Thanks for the info.

Kenneth Lew
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Old November 6, 2002, 06:49 AM   #2
Brian Busch
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1. Yes. Same as Artillery Lugers.
2. Not aware of any, but mine is a full size .30 Mauser
3. Not that I am aware of
4. Kings in atlanta has parts, but they are pretty scarce
5. I thought the red 9 was a russian contract pistol? Are the Chinese now making knockoffs?
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Old November 6, 2002, 08:10 AM   #3
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1. It is my understanding that if you contact the ATF and get permission you can attach a reproduction shoulder stock legally. What I do not know is wether you will have to pay the $200.oo transfer fee to do this or not. The repro stock will have to closely approximate the configuration of the original.

An original stock is legal on this pistol.

2. The Red Nine was a pistol that was never perfected. All though they do work somewhat expect jams with them. The very short 9mm cartridge does not work well out of the very long magazine of the Mauser as it was originally designed for the 30 Mauser cartridge which is a good deal longer than the 9x19 cartridge.

3. Yes they exist with detachable mags. There are some original full auto .30 caliber models and some super rare semi-autos but they are beyond the price range of the average buyer. Also I believe it was Interarms that made up some semi-auto frames and put the full auto top halves on them making the gun a legal semi-auto. They are not considered originals and are not worth what an orignal would sell for. Also the Chinese have imported some detatachable magazine versions that were made recently.

4. Parts availablity is a nightmare. There are repro. firing pins and repro grips and repro coil springs but no flat springs that I am aware of and they are the ones that usually break. Another common part that breaks is the safety. They are usually not available and if you look to see how they were made you will understand why. Truthfully their are probably only a handful of machinest in the entire country that would even attempt to make one and if they did the part would probably end up costing you more that the original complete gun did to begin with. You can break a safety just by squeezing it to hard when the gun is dissasembled and you are attempting to put it back together again. This gun is an easy gun to take apart but a hard one to put back together again.

Note: Never take out the rocker arm coupling located in the sub-assembly. The main spring rests behind this part. If you take this part out and accidently put it back in backwards the gun will go back together but then it will not work and it will never ever come back apart again. A hole will have to be drilled into the side of the frame so that the rocker arm can be lifted to enable you to slide the reciever off of the frame. And then the hole would have to be welded back up and the gun refinished. The rocker arm coupling is in the shape of a C and should always be pointing forward toward the muzzle of the gun.

Although parts guns and rebuilt guns are still available an orignal in excellent original condition will cost you a lot of money. They are almost too expensive to take a chance on shooting because of the devaluation that would happen to your investment.

Be careful if your hammer is not marked with an N/S. It stands for new safety. If it is not marked as such the gun can accidently fire all by itself and here is how it will happen. If you are shooting the gun and you accidently bump the safety only slightly to the on position the safety will prevent you from firing the next shot. When you discover what has happened and flick the safety into the fire position the hammer will fall all by itself without you touching the trigger and the gun will fire because the gun was actually in a false safety postion.

All this is not meant to discourage you from buying one because they are super accurate and an enginneering masterpiece of the highest order. Workmanship was superb and they were made of the finest materiels available. Shooting one with a shoulder stock is a real joy. There were many, many variations of the C96 but finding them today is not as easy as it was 30 or 40 years ago. They are a super collectors piece and a very historical weapon having served in every major war from the early 1900's all the way up to the many current wars . They were one of the few early auto-loading pistols that worked very reliably.

MOst of them today unless in mint condition will require the replacement of the recoil spring and sometimes the hammer spring. Failure to replace these springs will cause immediate damage to the weapon if it is fired with full power factor loads. Shooting reduced reloads in this weapon will prolong its life rather than shooting a ton of full power factory loads. It is not recommeded that you ever shoot Tokerov ammo out of these weapons as the Tokerov ammo is way to hot for them.

Bore diameter runs about .312 on the origjnals and about .308 on the relined , rebuilt guns.

Last edited by rcbs; November 6, 2002 at 04:17 PM.
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Old November 6, 2002, 11:13 AM   #4
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Not sure about the legal questions, but I'm of the opinion that my Broomhandle shooting days are over.

I've seen WAY too many fractured locking blocks over the past 10 years.

Under the right conditions, that locking block could come right back in your face.
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Old November 6, 2002, 02:36 PM   #5
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Jeff Cooper's recent commentary mentioned that Norinco is supposed to be making copies. Haven't seen any confirmation in other sources, but that would be a nice way to get a "shooter" if the quality was decent.
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Old November 6, 2002, 04:08 PM   #6
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Waiting for Hand_Rifle_Guy to chime in...
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Old November 6, 2002, 04:12 PM   #7
rcbs
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Quote:
Jeff Cooper's recent commentary mentioned that Norinco is supposed to be making copies
They have made them. I saw one last month at an auction. The side panels are milled flat like the old flat side broomhandles. The workmanship is not in the class of the originals and since I do not own one I do not know wether or not the steel has been given the same heat treatment as the original models.

I have seen some weapons come out of China that had very good workmanship and service life and I own a couple of Chinese rifles that have excellent workmanship but I also own and have examined Chinese weapons that were very poorly made. It all depends which company made them. This is true of most countries. I have bought good American made weapons and also some American made weapons that were not so good.
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Old November 6, 2002, 07:03 PM   #8
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World's first Lego gun. Yep. You snap everything together or parts are held together by tension. Only two screws or pins. Grips & a pin for the rear sight (if adjustable).

If the Chinese are making them, I'd like to get one in 9mm. Just for the fun of it.
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Old November 6, 2002, 07:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Be careful if your hammer is not marked with an N/S. It stands for new safety. If it is not marked as such the gun can accidently fire all by itself and here is how it will happen. If you are shooting the gun and you accidently bump the safety only slightly to the on position the safety will prevent you from firing the next shot. When you discover what has happened and flick the safety into the fire position the hammer will fall all by itself without you touching the trigger and the gun will fire because the gun was actually in a false safety postion.
Funny thing, I just noticed this on mine a few weeks ago! I shot it once a long time ago, but I never had an occasion to use the safety in it's brief range experience. I don't think I'll rush back to the range with the gun...
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Old November 7, 2002, 02:19 PM   #10
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Red 9 Mausers were made for use by the German Army during WWI in the standard 9mm caliber. They can be fun to shoot, although my original shoots about 6" high & 4" left of the sights. I did shoot an IPSC match with it once, just for grins. It was a bit hard to holster. Come to think about it, I may need to do that again!!
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Old November 7, 2002, 07:21 PM   #11
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Hyew rang, suh?

Sorry Sven, but I am not a Broomhandle expert. Granted, I have two, the Shansei .45 and a TIRED .30 caliber Bolo, but those things are complicated!

Direct experience is with the .45, which is brand new, and isn't even broken in yet. It's getting better, but it hasn't broken anything.

The Bolo is BEAT. Nice patina finish. Some external pitting in a couple of spots, and it acts like it needs both a hammer and recoil springs: Light hammer strikes, and failure to go into battery. But that is comparitively minor in relation to the fact that the darn thing is a SMOOTHbore. It has the faintest ghost of rifling left, albeit very evenly eroded. This thing got rode hard and put away wet about a million times too many. It needs a complete barrel re-furbish, like boring to 9mm or relining. It'll shoot, sorta. Accuracy is not it's strong point, to say the least but I've only put 50 rounds through it.

No broken parts on that either, though. I just imagine the silly thing's just waiting to fail just as soon as fix the barrel. It's ugly on the outside, but the numbers on the major components match, and the internals aren't particularly worn, just well used. That, however, says little about the springs. New ones are in the offing.

Shoulder stocks on pistols are allowed if the gun had them as original equipment and it's a C&R, I think. I seem to remember reading that you didn't need to confirm use with ATF, and I know you don't have to register it as a short rifle, but it HAS to be an originally configured gun. Inglis High Powers can have a shoulder stock also, if you could find one.

Unfortunately, my info is rather unreliable. It's been awhile since I read up on it. Further research is warranted.

Parts availibility is somewhat better than it was. Recent importation of large lots of Broomhandles from China have brought over enough wrecked-up parts guns along with the good stuff to support parts-finding from the usual sources like Numrich. There's at least two ads in the Shotgun News from folks who offer extensive re-furbishing services. They oughta know where to get parts.

I read someplace that Red Nines came about as the result of Germany's severe handgun shortage during the Great War. Broomhandles were out of production, more or less, as too expensive to make, but when the war started, Mauser still had the original tooling to build them, and simply re-started their production. They were chambered in 9mm, which has the same case head, and a mag spacer was installed.

China loved everything Reich, and ordered tens of thousands of Broomhandles in all configurations. Eventually, they started to produce their own, which ultimately culminated in the appearance of the Shansei .45. However, outside of Shansei Arsenal many of the rest of the pistols were produced by state-run arms factories that farmed out a lot of component manufacture to expedite production. These parts were built "cottage-industry" style, often by hand. As with the Spanish Ruby pistols, this meant that lots of the parts were poorly made, of poorer materials like old horseshoes, and with the completely indifferent heat treatment you can accomplish with charcoal forges and steel with very little carbon in it to promote hardening. Hence the somewhat sketchy reputation enjoyed by most Chinese Broomhandles, and mayperhaps the source of a lot of those catastrophic failure stories.

I have a little more faith in German manufacturing precision, other than the Shansei guns, which compare quite favorably to the old-world craftsmanship embodied in the original Mausers. But even the youngest Broomhandle was produced in the thirties, and that qualifies them for special handling. Be nice to them. They all qualify as creaky senior citizens. but I routinley shoot a Swedish Mauser made in 1906, and I don't think THAT's going to fail, so I figure if I keep a close eye on the failure-prone parts, I hopefully won't bounce a breechbolt off my noggin.

I also don't plan on shooting 'em too much. Musn't dance on the top of a hill in rainstorm wearing copper plate-mail while shouting "All Gods are bastards!", after all. Good luck is an unknown but finite thing.

You ask, you get. More later after I do a little research. I love Broomhandles. There are fewer guns more strange-looking, and the weird ones are inevitably my favorites. AND they cost less than Lugers, now. My dead Bolo was $275, but it was about the cheapest one I've seen that I thought might be shootable. Nicer ones run twice that.

I need some more oddities. Anyone got a Roth-Steyr lying around that they don't need?

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Old November 7, 2002, 08:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Parts availibility is somewhat better than it was. Recent importation of large lots of Broomhandles from China have brought over enough wrecked-up parts guns along with the good stuff to support parts-finding from the usual sources like Numrich. There's at least two ads in the Shotgun News from folks who offer extensive re-furbishing services. They oughta know where to get parts.
I already called all of these people and commonly needed parts are not available. The most commonly broken parts are difficult if not impossible to find such as the safety (five types made), rear sight spring (flat), trigger return spring (flat), Hammer ( about 5 types made) etc. About the only repro parts available are firing pins, grips and stripper clips and coil springs.

There were a lot of Chinese broomhandles imported about 7 to 8 years ago and although they sold for as little as $60 back then, the same worn out pistol today can cost you up to $300 dollars and then you have to get the barrel relined and the gun refinished and as I have said some of the parts that are worn out on it will not be found anywhere at any price.

So be sure to strip down the pistol before you buy it because that good deal that you thought you got could end up costing you a lot of money in the long run and even then you may end up with a pistol that cannot be repaired due to lack of availablilty of critical parts.
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Old November 7, 2002, 09:45 PM   #13
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After all that, all i can say is, I am so glad I think they are ugly...otherwise I'd have to have one just to defy common sense
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Old November 8, 2002, 05:46 PM   #14
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I wanted a nice shootable 9 Bolo. I had to buy 4 pistols from China to collect enough useable parts to make one good shooter. I had the .30 shot out barrel rebored and rifled in a very fast twist (1/9). My original idea was to chamber it out (the cut down .30 Mauser chamber makes a perfect Luger chamber without reaming) to 9X25 (Export Mauser) caliber. I previously made some of these for customers on 96's.
Well, I'm still debating. I hate the idea of having to cut down all of those 9mm magnum cases to 25. I may just settle for the 9mm Largo cartridge. It will feed much better than a 9X19 and have a bit more punch. However, the locking block worries me, also.
Incidentally, I could write a book on the shade tree "gunsmithing" used to repair my pistols when they were in China.
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Old November 8, 2002, 06:56 PM   #15
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John Lawson

I to have thought of boring out a 30 mauser to 9mm export and I may be in error but I was told that the 9x23 cartridge is a dead ringer for the old 9mm mauser export.

The original 9mm Mauser export according to the world famous book "System Mauser" had a lengthened and strengthened chamber to withstand the high pressures of the 9mm export cartridge. This coupled with the fact that the Chinese pistols were all pretty well worn out would make the conversion a high risk at best. I too wonder how long the locking block would last on such a conversion even if the pistol was in mint condition to begin with. The old 9mm Export cartridge was actually not loaded up to its maximum potential and it was probably because of the inherent strength or lack of strenth of the C96 pistol. I have heard though that some people have accidentally fired 9mm luger cartridges out of a 30. caliber Mauser and in some instances the pistol did not blow up. How strong a C96 pistol really is if in new condition is a mystery that I wish I would be able to find out about some day. There are debates on both sides of the fence on that one.

I have been long facinated by this very unusual and very historical pistol. One of the posters said he though it was rather ugly but to me it is a raving beauty that had the some of the finest workmanship and materiels ever put into a pistol.

I would suggest the person who thought it quite ugly should lay it on a table next to a modern plastic pistol and strip both down to the frame and compare the engineering and workmanship of both pistols. It is then he will understand why the C96 has always been such a great collectors item. There is nothing else in the world quite like them and very unfortunately we will never see anything like this ever being made again.
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Old November 9, 2002, 03:13 PM   #16
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I have been taking my cherry 9mm bolo to indoor range lately to see what it would actually do. It doesnt seem all that accurate with 4 inch groups at 25yds the norm . Muzzle rise is quite pronounced without the stock and god forbid if you wrap your thumb around stock under hammer! OUCH! John I have never had 9X19 fail to feed/fire in 600 rounds in the last 10n years since a guy did a beautiful restoration conversion job on a very clean .30 Bolo. But then again I dont fire much defense oriented hollow points in it. I'm not going to fire this thing alot more I think I know what it can do now. It CAN deliver body hits out to 200+yds with stock attached and I shot a goat in head at 50 yds. I think if I was world explorer before 1960s this combo would be way to go. Oh yes my Bolo has 6" 9X19 barrel now and carved dragon fancy stock that was fitted to it.
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Old November 9, 2002, 03:57 PM   #17
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to gordo B

Where did you get the dragon stock? Was it custom made?

I would like to get one.
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Old November 9, 2002, 06:50 PM   #18
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Well yes and no, The work was done by an old ex Mauserwerke gunsmith under the auspices of Oyster Bay back east. These stocks were offered by them in late 80's for $200 and standard stocks were $139. I dont have invoice or remember adress.Even the factory address was recut or otherwise made to look new complete with 9mm Parabellum in script on new barrell. Wonderfull blue job all new springs ect 6 inch length Barrell and fitted to stock $600 + stock. I am almost ready to start posting pictures I will put one up.I could kick my self for not spending the extra $200 this company would have put on detachable magazine conversion and supplied 2 twenty round original magazines!
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Old November 10, 2002, 01:22 PM   #19
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Thanks all for the info

Decided on what to purchase.

Kenneth Lew
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Old November 11, 2002, 08:03 PM   #20
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I have one of the recently-imported Chinese M712 varients (semi-auto with detachable magazine), along with both 10 and 20 round mags. Chambered in 9 by 19, and a real joy to shoot. I am not frisky enough to try an IPSC match with it, although the "Wild Bunch" CAS side matches are quite entertaining.

I also have a 1930 Commercial and a pair of '96 Brooms, all in the standard 7.65 by 25mm.

With a few oddball parts, they dress up to look a bit familiar to the SciFi crowd:



This one was a junker with a bore that made a sewer pipe look pristine and no original finish. Now, well, it looks neat on a shelf all by itself...Solo, if you will



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Old June 16, 2015, 10:48 AM   #21
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Question 2, many of the red 9s flooding the market are do-overs done on imports from China with shot out barrels. Otherwise known as fakes or beater pistols. The desire to restore a pistol to shootable condition is understood, but the method chosen attempts to pass the pistol off as something it isn't and mutilating it and destroying collector value in the process.

3. Yes, SARCO back in the 80s, used to market a lower frame attachment that replaced the magazine floorplate with a device that accepted magazines from the select fire versions of the Mauser. They may still have some.

4. Go to gun broker for parts. Also Ebay for newly made bolt stops, Wolff for better springs, etc.

Chinese imports of the 80s ranged from absolutely trashed pistols, to rare gems. You sent in your $69 dollars and you prayed. Some importers took a bunch of trash pistols and cannibalized them to make 1 decent pistol, then sold the left over parts. At least one importer used trash pistols to make fake carbine variants and fake Red 9s which they sold at a higher price. Real Red 9s were a Prussian contract and have appropriate Prussia acceptance marks. None were sold to China as they didn't use that caliber. Many of the Mauser pistols imported from China were completely fake clones made in Chinese arsenals at various times. Many have poorly done fake Mauser markings, or no markings, or very strange markings. Many were made of sub-standard steel which lasted long enough to shoot one or two enemy, and no one cared after that. Here in the US the myth of the bolt stop failure where the bolt blows out the rear can often be traced to one of the Chinese clones. Some of the imports had/have Chinese made upper or lower receivers mated to Mauser made upper or lower receivers. Spotting those can be tricky as at least one half has the correct markings. At the same time, many authentic Mauser C96 pistols of various variants also came with the batch. Many are what is called the 'pre-war commercial' version, but also many bolos, earlier models, and of course M-30s. The Mausers, being unnecessarily large, were very popular in China where a man's stature was measured by how big his pistol was. Everyone wanted one. If they couldn't buy the real thing, they made a copy. At the same time China had trouble getting them into the country. Originally they were shipped through Japan, but when Japan invaded Manchuria, that stopped. Some came in through the Russia, but Stalin's USSR confiscated many. So there was pressure for the military to copy them too. That their arsenals in the early 1900s were stone age with inferior steels was not seen as a problem. Almost all of the imports have seen much actual combat. Chinese revolution, warlord rivalries, Japan's invasion, and of course Mao's rebellion, etc. The result is many are badly worn. China did refurbish some of them, mostly by mix and match methods, but shot out barrels are the norm. Also not uncommon are pistols with totally mismatched serial numbers. Chinese armorers didn't have time to worry about did this rear sight or bolt stop come from this pistol, or was it this one? They often just grabbed one from a box and threw it in there to make something that would shoot, so yes, sometimes you find pistols with a total mix of parts from different guns (both Chinese and Mauser) and telling that, if there is no mark on the part is hard. I bought 4 of them back in the day. Two were Chinese made, one was a Mauser but with mis numbered parts and one was a Mauser with all matching serial numbers. I sold 3, kept one and replaced the very worn out springs and shoot it at least two times a year with no problems. With decades of corrosive ammo through it, yes, the barrel is as dark as the gun's exterior, but the rifling is there. If you have a C96 you should first do some research. There are several vg websites dedicated to the Mauser pistols and their variants. Learn what you have and how to spot the fake Mauser and other stamps placed on the Chinese clones. They are clumsy pistols (and the shoulder stock combo or a 1,000 yard sight was just a marketing gimmick and the stocks fit too loose to be of any valuse for accuracy anyway). Still they are fun to shoot. Avoid 7.62 Tokarev ammo in them. For varied reasons Tokarev ammo has a bad reputation in them. Use only 7.63 ammo. Beware of Chinese clones with steel too soft.

Hope this helps.
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Old June 16, 2015, 11:40 AM   #22
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This thread petered out well over a decade ago.

Resurrecting it to answer questions asked then, is more than a little silly.

Closed.
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