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Old December 5, 2002, 06:36 PM   #1
Denny Hansen
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Gunsite Three-Day Carbine

I attended the 3-day carbine class (223/3) at Gunsite this last weekend. I enjoy attending basic schools almost as much as I do the "advanced" classes as it’s a good place to brush up on the basics—and the fundamentals is what makes for good shooters.

The RM for the class was Gunsite Adjunct Instructor Larry Landers. I’ve know Larry since he was a young guy still working narcotics with the Arizona DPS. Good shooter, good instructor, and all-around good guy.

We covered more in three short days than I would have thought possible. Did a lot of position shooting, close-in drills, distance shooting (out to 300 yards) and several indoor and outdoor simulators. I picked up a few more techniques for the ‘ol tactical toolbox including the carbine roll-over and SBU (Special Boat Unit) prone positions.

Did I mention fundamentals? Larry picked up that I was not resetting the trigger on my AR during follow-through—a bad habit developed through solo practice.

Overall I suppose I did OK. Heard third hand that Colonel Young said, "Denny shoots pretty good for an old blind guy with iron sights."

I highly recommend the two and three day classes at Gunsite for anyone who might be a little short of either the time or cash the week-long classes requires.

Denny
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Old December 6, 2002, 08:04 AM   #2
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Carbine

Are you going to be able to attend the 556 or 2 Man Tean Carbine in May?
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Old December 6, 2002, 12:12 PM   #3
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I'm hoping to attend one or the other, Pat. Depends on the editorial schedule as much as anything else.
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Old December 6, 2002, 12:51 PM   #4
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did anyone in the class use a non AR rifle? Did you bring anything special for equipment? Is there anything that you wish you would have brought? Did any of your class mates bring equipment that failed? If so what and how?
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Old December 6, 2002, 02:51 PM   #5
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All .223 AR variants with one AR-10 (.308).

Two students used ACOGs with the 6 MOA dot. Great for close-in work, but the dot obscured the target at 200-300 yards with resultant lack of accuracy. IMO the 4 MOA triangle would be better. Better still may be the new open chevron reticle.

One class member using an EOTech sight had hit and miss results (no pun intended). Also, the batteries started failing during the night shoot portion of the class.

Other students had variable and fixed power glass. Great at distance, but a bit slower up close.

Only three of us (myself included) had dedicated lights on our carbines. Although three different techniques were taught how to use a hand-held light, others in the class saw the benefit of a dedicated light for CQB-type work.

While attending a school I always regret not using knee/elbow pads. But for me at least, they change my shooting position enough in the sitting and braced kneeling positions they I would just as soon do without them. Also, when going prone or to double knees, I don’t want to condition myself to going down real hard. If ever forced to do it on the street, (read concrete) I may crack a kneecap. And, since a big part of staying in the fight is movement, I prefer not to lose that option. Train like you fight, fight like you train…

Equipment Failures:
One rifle stopped working due to broken a gas ring. Another student had a bag of spare parts and replaced it. One rifle stopped running mid-way through the first day due to lack of lubrication because the owner had been informed by his local "expert" that ARs like to run dry. One student had a 30-round USA mag that would not work (gasp). I fixed it for him by throwing it in the trash can.

Denny
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Old December 6, 2002, 06:12 PM   #6
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"student had a bag of spare parts"

Got to love guys like that! I make friends with them right away. You can spot them as they are wearing suspenders and 2 belts.
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Old December 6, 2002, 07:52 PM   #7
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What other equipment did you take ? Did you have to have some kind of load bearing equipment with mag pouches ? If so, what were the best one to use ? How many mags would you recommend ?
Sounds interesting, I have always wanted to do something like this but never got serious about it.
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Old December 6, 2002, 09:45 PM   #8
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What to Bring

444,
In the March 02 issue of SWAT was an article titled "Firearms Academies: What to Bring".

It may answer most of your questions.
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Old December 6, 2002, 11:34 PM   #9
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When out and about and I have my AR with me, I normally don’t carry a spare mag. For the class, I used my normal carry equipment supplemented by a drop thigh rig for the carbine mags made by Buchanan Bagworks www.3gungear.com. Also used one of their dump pouches (sans the thigh strap) for tactical reloads. Most everyone else in the class had some sort of LBE gear, but had shed most of it as not necessary by the middle of the second day.

Three magazines can get you through the class, but I’d recommend twice that number so you don’t slow down the rest of the class loading magazines when you could be shooting. I took ten, and topped them off during the breaks.

The class required 830 of carbine ammo and 50 rounds of pistol ammo for transition drills. Most of the class shot just over or just under the recommended amount. I did a lot of non-standard responses, sometimes shooting as many as four or five rounds up close, and used right at 1,000 rnds of .223

Hope that answered some of your questions.

The article Pat reference has good advice in it. Picked up the dump pouch idea from another one of his articles.

Denny
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Old December 7, 2002, 08:53 AM   #10
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Carbine Course

I can tell you that if you attend a 223 , 556 0r CATP class that i am teaching, bring the following.

A good attitude.

A CamelBak. You need to have water on you so that you can drink when you want to, not when you have to.

Knee and elbow pads. Hard shell ones. And not pink. I don't care if you are from the Big Granola.

At least 10 serviceable 30 rd mags. Load them all up the night befoe, and you won't waste time/ tire yourself out jamming mags when you should be learning.

A serviceable carbine. If you are foolish enough to have an aftermarket "Match" trigger, bring a spare carbine.

A spare bolt and carrier. When your extractor goes TU, swapping out will be less painless.

A tactical sling. It is easier to use, and safer for all concerned as you won't be twirling your firestick around when attempting target acquisition. The Wilderness Single Point works best.

If you bring an optic, mount it on the receiver, not the carry handle. It will be painfully obvious why on Day 2.

If you bring an optic, bring one that works, not one that was "Cheap".

Bring serviceable ammunition. Why anyone wouls spend all of the money/ time to go to school and bring Wolf ammo is beyond me, but you generally get what you deserve.

A cleaning kit. Be prepared to clean the gun 3X during the week, more if you are using frang. Know how to clean the thing.

Bring oil. Lube the gun 2X daily. TW25B is great. So is Tetra. I'm shying away from petroleum based stuff.

Have the ability to carry at least two spare mags on your body.

Bring a weapon mounted light. As with everything else, cheap stuff doesn't work.

A dump pouch is a good idea.

Make sure that you have a belt that will support your pistol w/ 2 spare mags, and 2 carbine mags. Make sure of it at home so that you don't hold up the rest of the class while you look like an idiot as your gucci belt sags and dumps your trash on the deck.

Leave behind the following:

Everything you have ever heard in a gun store.

Everything that Uncle Willy ever told you about the war.

Bipods


If you have never had formal training, a lot will be a revelation. A lot of pre concieved notions acquired over errornet.com will be squashed into the fine desert soil.

Keep that good attitude, hydrate, eat proper food, and absorb all you can. You will have fun.
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Old December 7, 2002, 01:45 PM   #11
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To stress, IMHO, a very important point that Pat Rogers raises, is the ingestion of the right fuel. Unlike most hanging out in the gun shoppe recounting their days chasing down tangos in the Selous Scouts, some (such as a certain long, lanky office geek from the Midwest) who attend these classes are not used to sustained physical activity other than carrying a file or two across the street to the courthouse.

As the carbine classes focus on fighting (just not shooting), your body has to be ready. This means plenty of water and staying away from trash such as red meat and starch or anything else that is "heavy", hard to digest. Fruits are great and come in their own wrappers. IME, salads, if you can get, are the perfect training food.

At an expensive, "advanced" class, I once saw a man eat an entire Big Mac at lunch the first day. I could not believe it. I reminded him that he remembered that we would be moving and grooving for the week. He shrugged it off and was sick and miserable for the rest of the week.

I've seen others suffer from self-inflicted goofy dietary actions during classes (usally not drinking water "I don't want to have to use el bano all the time" or "I know what my body needs [from the supine position]" or "Why is my head swimming, must be the noise?"). Time is hard to come by; don't let your partner and you down.
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Old December 8, 2002, 01:46 PM   #12
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Ok, I signed up for the carbine class at Gunsite for March 10-14. What happens now ? I assume I need to find a place to stay etc. (I live within an easy drive of Paulden). I guess I will also need to buy some stuff. I have plenty of mags but no way to carry them. I don't have knee pads. No "tactical sling" just the black nylon sling we used in the Army. Any futher info would really be appreciated. I would love to go into this experience prepared to get the most out of it possible.

What is a dump pouch ?

Pat, I downloaded the SWAT magazine issue as a PDF file. I am also working on reading other previous threads on the subject. I notice in one thread you say to bring some type of optical sight. I will buy one if it is essential but was hoping I could use the issue sights. Would you say this is pretty much essential ?

Last edited by 444; December 8, 2002 at 03:06 PM.
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Old December 8, 2002, 04:34 PM   #13
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444, alright! You'll have a great time.

Way to carry mags? I like the chest pouch. They are cooler (meaning heat, not Captain Tactical/Iwannacoolgun virus cool) and they don't interfere with my pistols as some Cap'n Tactical vests do. Some guys like the belt mags, but I really get the BBS when I tried it.

Knee pads? Lots of good ones. I'm certain you'll get plenty of suggestions; however, I have used these things from China under the trade name "Hatch" for several classes now. They were $20.00; I found them hanging on the wall at a local gun shoppe. I have not painted them pink, but am seriously considering the idea. Maybe smiley faces or baby ducks?

Tac sling? I was skeptical at the Captain Tactical sling, until someone showed me how to use it. Mighty handy. Make sure you get one that you can get out of in a jiffy. It's fun doing weapon retention against someone with those GSCs slings that they wrap around themselves.

Dump pouch? All kinds now. I use a East European gas mask bag, but it can jump around on me. Get a dedicated one for best results.

Please tell us all about it (I leave in April so I want to get ramped up).

Shoot straight.
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Old December 8, 2002, 05:53 PM   #14
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Class

444
March? Bummer- i'm teaching 3 in May.

You don't need an optical sight- but it makes life a lot easier.
Certain mil units have long since gotten away from the romance of the sight alignment thing.
We get better first round hits in less time.
However, your choice.

Stay at Antelope in by the Prescott Airport. Inexpensive, clean, and they give you cleaning rags for your guns.

What kind of gun??
If an AR, get the Single Point sling from the Wilderness in CA

Skateboard knee and elbow pads will work.
You can get mag pouches from The Wilderness, or Eagle (DMP-FB-M16)
All of the above is available at Gunsite.

A Dump Pouch is a place to keep your empty mags- also a SWAT story last month.
The best is from Artie Ellis at ATOMP@cox.net
Get it quickly, he deploys in a few weeks.
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Old December 10, 2002, 11:17 AM   #15
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Hey, you guys need to keep the advice coming.
Yes, I will be bringing two ARs. One Bushmaster 16" and one Bushmaster 20". Both are bone stock. I will get the Winderness sling on both of them. Optics are a question at this point. If I took your advice, I guess I would get another upper with a 16" flat top, then the Aimpoint, then the mount and I am into another $Grand. That isn't out of the question, but I am not dying to spend that much more.
What should I do to prepare for this class other than equipment ? Shooting drills ? Books to read, tapes to watch, what should I be able to do with my rifle before I show up ? What kind of ammo would you recommend I take (brand, bullet weight) ? I noticed that I could have just bought the ammo when I signed up for the class, I should have done that but didn't.
What role does the handgun play in this class ? What kind of holster is nessessary for the handgun ? I am not a "tactical" type of guy. I have three 1911 holsters at present; A full flap holster that is my field holster, a Fobus kydex rig that I bought so that I can practice some IPSC type stuff and a Milt Sparks Summer Special for my Officers Model (IWB concealment rig). Oh and I guess I also have a Safariland Final Option from when I used to shoot IPSC. Do I need another holster ?
Then you recommend a weapon mounted light. Which one, where can I get one ?
What about mag pouches ? More input would be appreciated. Where do you get these chest pouches ?

Last edited by 444; December 10, 2002 at 11:39 AM.
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Old December 10, 2002, 08:49 PM   #16
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444, if Pat's still reading this he's a far better source, but allow me to address this from the brasshopper viewpoint and then Pat can give you the correct information.

Prep--get in physical shape. Exercise with a concentration on running and stretching (the moaning starts about day 3). Exercise with the weapon. Militree presses, reverse curls, curls, lat raises, etc. Practice holding the weapon on target, use a stop watch or a cooking timer to increase your times. Know your weapons. Know where they shoot and where your zero is. Clear the system--drink all the water you can a couple of weeks before going down. I also switch to all fruits, veggies, and fish and stop drinking beer (I'm a pale, sissy office geek, walking to the parking garage is a struggle for me, so you are likely in better shape than me).

Ammo--good ammo. Guys spend an arm and leg on good weapons, tutition and travel and then bring nasty junk to blow through their expensive gear. I like 55gr., FMJ, Remington/UMC off the shelf, but have had good luck with that Suid Afrika stuff if available (is it still around?). Experiment with different stuff--don't forget your white lab coat.

Pistol--regular carry gun. The Fobus or Milt Sparks, if that is what you carry, should do fine. Bring two.

Light--I like one. Others do not. Since I am a nasty, undisciplined civilian, I consider common courtesy to see who I am about to shoot. It's just more explainable to the PA that way and works with any rational scenario where I would have a carbine unlimbered. Have you checked out the M3?

Magpouch--I use the one from Blackhawk. It has rendered excellent service. Others here can recommend other makers. Try a vest as well. Some guys dig these. If you want a belt pouch (I try to eschew BBS), call Tony at Milt Sparks. I think they still catalogue one. Does Fobus make one?
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Old December 11, 2002, 08:42 AM   #17
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444

If you don't have a flattop, you could always use a gooseneck mount. This isn't optimum, but works.
Optics make life easier, and ensure the certainty of first round hits.
Hey, bring what ya' got!. But i will assure you that at the end of the week you will see things more clearly (no pun!)

The PMC that goes with the package is PMC, and is excellent training ammo. Stay away from Wolf.
Don't read books. view tapes etc.. Some of what is written and produced is good and some is not. In any event. the mind absorbs little from reading, a little more from seeing, and a lot from doing.
Come to class with an open mind, and don't burden yourself with stuff that may or may not be consistent with their doctrine. Afterwards you can look at different methods, once yo have a frame of reference.
The 223 is a Meet and Greet Your Carbine Class, The pistol is a secondary gun used if the primary goes down. There is some pistol work, but not much.
Your SS (an excellent choice!!) is a great carry holster, but not viable for class due to reholstering issues.
What kind of pistol? Gunsite will not permit an IWB/Glock with new shooters for obvious reasons.
The Mil hilster is OK, but flaps provide minimum protection and maximimum aggravation.
And i am underwhelmed with forbus.
If all you are doing is non serious work, anything is fine. If you are doing this for a living, only get what is going to stay yhe course.

Again- the carbine mag pouch is the Eagle DMP-FB-M16. either through Lightfighter .com or at Gunsite.
I would not use anything by blackhawk.
You can actually get away with no light for this class, as the night shoot has artificial illumination.
The only viable lights are SureFire. The M3 does not stay the course either.

My attitude towards gear is that it has to work and it has to be robust enough to work across the spectrum. If you are only going to use it as often as Haley's Comet passes in view of this island earth, buy any old thing.
But i see loads of crap delaminate on a regular basis.
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Old December 11, 2002, 08:49 PM   #18
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Are there any requirments about using optics vs iron sights for these courses?

I'm curious about the durability and dependability of some optics.
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Old December 11, 2002, 08:58 PM   #19
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Equipment

Are there requirements for optice? No, of course not. The simple fact of life is that optics make it easier.

Durability- that depends on what type of optic you have- pretty much like the kind of car you drive, computer you type on etc.

Buy cheap crap, get bad service from it.
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Old December 15, 2002, 01:02 PM   #20
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Ok, let's talk optics. Pat, you recommed the Aimpoiint ML2. I see SWFA has four different models. They have two and four minute dots. Then they have the night vision compatable models, and they have 2 power magnification and I am assuming no magnification. Which model do you recommend ?
Then what about mounts ? I see several out there and see pictures of several different configurations here and there including the article in this months SWAT about the 556 course. Again, which one do you think is the way to go ?

By the way, this was mentioned a couple times; I am just taking this course for fun. I am not military or law enforcement. I work as a firefighter. Not that this matters but I just thought I would mention that in reference to stuff like "If you are doing this for a living, only get what is going to stay yhe course".

This of course doesn't diminish the fact that I want to get the best stuff out there (that I can afford of course) as if I did use this stuff for a living.
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Old December 15, 2002, 02:54 PM   #21
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Aimpoint

444,
The ML2 with the 4MOA dot is what you want. The 2 MOA is too small for realistic use. There is no reason for the 2X.

As for Mounts- we use the KAC rings. The ARM's mounts are also fine, and there have been some rumblings about GG&G being non concentric. Sorry- i am traveling and have no #'s for you now.
My comment about doing it for a living needs to be explained.
If all you do is unpack the gun from the trunk and walk to the firing line, your needs may be different from someone else.
I refuse to buy low rent stuff regardless of what i use it for. I have seen waaay too much crap come through various classes because someone in a gunstore/magazine/ or Uncle Bob claimed it was the heat.

Just FYI. My Brother was a Firefighter in FDNY Special Operations Command. During the attack by muslims on the WTC, his Company- Squad Company 1- lost 12 men, out of the 94 from SOC and the 341 FF's killed by those seeking to impose their twisted sense of religion on us.
He survived, but is medically retired. I have a soft spot for FF's, and consider them to be at the top of the heap when it comes to functioning under the worst conditions around.
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Old December 18, 2002, 12:01 AM   #22
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There is so much stuff to buy. I didn't want to go in there looking like some kind of geek with all this trick stuff hanging off my rifle. But I guess that is what everyone has.
I am going to try to work 96 hours of overtime next week so I can buy all this stuff. That shouldn't be a problem since it will be Chrismas and the five days following it.
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Old December 18, 2002, 12:59 AM   #23
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How often do you see Mini 14s there?
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Old December 18, 2002, 02:41 PM   #24
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Trick Stuff??

444,
Maybe i'm mising something here- trick stuff? An optical sight is not "trick stuff". It ensures the certainty of a first round hit under all cirvumstances/ conditions. A tac sling? It permits you to do things more efficiently.
The list goes on.
Your decision is yours of course. You can take whatever you want and it will work just fine. Bring what you want.
But i can pretty much tell you that by Wed you will wish that you had something else/ different etc.

Sodapop,
No. Mini 14's are generally not up to the task due to lack of ergonomics and fragility. I don't believe that we ever had one that lasted for the whole week.
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Old December 18, 2002, 02:49 PM   #25
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Don't get me wrong Pat. What I mean is that I always looked at catalogs or whatever and never really considered buying all this "trick stuff". It wasn't that I had anything against it, in fact I thought it looked cool, but I guess it never occured to me that serious dudes used all this stuff. Or more accurately, I never gave it much thought. I guess I always looked at all this stuff as gadgets.
The bottom line is that if it is practical, and enhances my performance, I want it. Everybody I talked to about it and everything I have read says it does and that is good enough for me. And, I certainly don't know anything about this stuff, that is why I am trying to learn.
Put youself in my shoes, I am a hillbilly with grampa's old squirrel rifle and I see a rifle with flashlight, laser, optics, collapsable stock.............. and it doesn't compute.
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