Jeff Cooper and Safari Calibers

[mississippi_rifleman]

Jeff Cooper said:

"We have learned by diffuse channels that the people at Leupold are investigating the possible recoil problem inherent in the Dragoon, which they discover recoils half as much again as the 308, in weapons of similar weight. "

For those that don't know what the Dragoon is, it is the .376 Steyr version of Cooper's Scout rifle. Now, the .376 Steyr was made for hunting 1000+ lbs animals and above and, to me, that is saying that it recoils half as much as a .308 Winchester. Do y'all take it as that? If that is the case, HOW? Also, for those of you that shoot those massive calibers like the .416 Rigby or any of those Holland and Holland or Nitro rounds, how is the recoil compared to .300 Magnums or the .30-06? I've never fired anything bigger than a 300 Win Mag, because, well, I haven't needed to, but I've always wondered how people shoot those .458s and .500s when the .300 Mags knock the crap out of me.

------------------
Ben Lee
Student, Senior
Computer Science
Mississippi State University
Fear the man that owns only one rifle,
he likely knows how to use it.
- Anonymous

[This message has been edited by mississippi_rifleman (edited June 16, 2000).]

[JimR]

"half as much again" = 150%

[Herodotus]

Is Leupold's investigation of this matter a round about way of saying that their scout scope has been found to fail in some way when mounted on a scout rifle of this caliber and power?

[Art Eatman]

The vast majority of all wonder-thumpers of the .416 Rigby class are not equipped with scopes. They are, generally, intended for close-up shots at dangerous game. Further, for most people the recoil is such that use with a scope leads to the lovely "bloused eyebrow" syndrome.

The weight of any rifle affects its recoil, as has been talked of many times in this forum. The Scout, remember, is light in weight; most of the Big 300s and up weight 30% to 50% more. It could well be a quality-control process, as is commonly done in many industries. If done ahead of complaints from the field, it prevents recalls and public apologies of the "Oops" type.

To figure relative shoulder-thump, take the ratio of the product of velocity times bullet weight. For example, a 500-grain bullet at 2,000 vs. a 200-grain bullet at 2,500. (Had to make it easy, of course.) For rifles of equal weight, the heavy bullet's thump is twice that of the lighter.

Now, if the heavy bullet's rifle is 10 pounds, and the light bullet's rifle is 8 pounds, the thump is then 80% of the above, or 1.6 times the lighter bullet/smaller caliber. Or 60% more.

So that's why so many African rifles weight ten to twelve pounds--to tame the recoil. And that weight is why well-to-do Old Farts have gun-bearers. Gun-bearers are young, poor guys who haven't been sitting behind a desk, making the money to afford the trip.

FWIW, Art

[Rich Lucibella]

FWIW, I don't think the .376 is up to the 1,000 lb game task. At 270 grains, I've chrono'd the Dragoon at 2200fps. This may render it the ideal plains game rifle, but going after buff or elephant with it would, IMHO, be folly.

Herodotus:
Steyr doesn't make a scope. We can't blame a gunmaker for having a rifle that recoils; but we can lobby Leupold et al to provide us a lightweight, practical scope that will withstand the recoil of heavier rifles.

YMMV
Rich

[Paul B.]

Ben. Have you ever fired a 12 gauge shotgun with 2 3/4 inch magnum loads? The .375 H&H in a 9 pound rifle recoils about the same. A lot of talk about recoil formulas leaves me cold. Somehow, recoil velocity seems to be ignored. I have a .300 Win. Mag and a .375 H&H, both in Ruger #1 single shots. Weight is approximately the same. Recoil in the .300 seems sharper due to the fact that it comes back faster (apparent feel) while the .375 is more of a push.(again apparent feel) I once had a Springfield 03A3 that had been converted to .458 Win. Mag. It weighed about 9 pounds. It kicked me a heck of a lot less than my buddy's .300 Weatherby Mag. Again this is based on apparent feel on my shoulder.
Something else to take into account. They will all kick harder off the bench. Shooting them offhand is a lot easier.
Then again, maybe in my case it is no sense, no feeling.
Paul B.

[Art Eatman]

Looking at the Hodgdon book, the .376 Dragoon is giving away 300 ft/sec to the .35 Whelen, and 500 ft/sec to the .375 H&H, for a 270-grain bullet.

Its advantage is that it will feed through a short action. Otherwise, damfino. Even Cooper originally said that it didn't fit the basic intent of the Scout rifle. To me it sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

All the guys who have written at length about Africa and hunting plains game have spoken about shots at 200 to 300 yards. It doesn't seem to me that the ballistics of the Dragoon make it the proper cartridge for large antelope at 200 to 300 yards.

It'd be a helluva brush-gun for walking up bear or hogs in a swamp, though.

, Art

[gunmart]

the .376 kinda fills a nich in my battery.its recoil is about like a .338 win mag but has much hevier bullets.the bullet drop is almost like a 180 gr .308 bullet.i dont see what all the fussing is about.i chose the styer pro hunter over the scout sue to the fact it has a great back up sight and good mounts for the conventional scope.it also weighs a bit more than the scout and that translates in to less felt recoil.

[Steve Smith]

In his commentaries, (not Cooper's Corner) the good Colonel has told us that the problem is that the rifle stock flexes under recoil just enough to allow the additional magazine (held in the stock) to fall out. Rather inconvenient.