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Old April 18, 2005, 03:45 PM   #1
Trapp
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Titegroup

Just bought some Titegroup and I can't find a recipe for some bullets. I can guess using similar loads, but I would like someone who has one I can start with to share with me. Anyway I have 44cal (.429) 240gr round nose-To be shot out of a Ruger SBH 7 1/2" barrel. 45acp (.452) 230gr RN shot out of a Ruger P97 (5" barrel?). I appreciate the assistance. Thanks
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Old April 18, 2005, 06:35 PM   #2
klw
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Titegroup

Whatever you do DO NOT use a titegroup load that consumes less than 70% of your case volume. I used 16 grains of Titegroup behind a 370 grain linotype cast bullet in my 500 S&W Magnum exactly as specified on the Hodgdon web page. Blew the gun up! That is an experience you DO NOT want!
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Old April 18, 2005, 06:38 PM   #3
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Whoa. Sounds serious. How did such a load manage to blow your gun up? Got any pics?
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Old April 18, 2005, 06:54 PM   #4
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Titegroup & Detonations

Gary Reeder Custom Guns is about two miles from my house. I've been talking to Garry about this for the last week or two. He builds custom revolvers, single actions mostly. He makes 500's but only on his strengthened custom frame.

I've long heard that a small charge in a large case could detonate rather than burn. Powder companies always write this off to a reloader getting a double charge in one case. I'm positive that that wasn't done here.

All the charges were weighed out on one of the new RCBS powder systems. After being put into a case the next die on my Lyman turret checked powder heights. Beyond that the RCBS powder system counts the number of charges it has delivered and I line the cartridges up in a row where I can see them all. This doesn't absolutely guarantee that I didn't make a mistake but it certainly reduced the odds.

The charge was exactly as specified on the Hodgdon web page using the cast bullet that they recommended.

Apparently there have been problems with the 500. Call it a detonate or a double charge. Whichever. The bottom line, however, is that you can get into serious trouble here.

In my case I was wearing very very good safety glasses. The recoiling hammer hit the frame which were made of very strong plastic. Cut the frame right in two. Oddly enough doing that stopped the recoil so I wasn't even scratched. Still the couple minutes it too me to recover and find a mirror to ensure that I was all still there were, well, not a thrill.

I called Hodgdon to suggest that maybe they might want to put up a warning about small charges in large cases. They informed me that that was out of the question. That they didn't make mistakes, period!

The gun is at Smith to see how much it would cost to repair it, if that is possible. Oddly enough, however, a fellow I know has made an offer on the gun that is too good to pass up.

The Smith & Wesson collector's web site has a long thread about this. They also have picture of a single action 500 Magnum that split its barrel lengthwise. Apparently serious problem with this cartridge aren't all that rare.

Personally you couldn't give me another 500 magnum nor the upcoming 460. Also I'm not much of a fan of reduced charges nor titegroup.
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Old April 18, 2005, 07:44 PM   #5
wingman
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I've used titegroup in 45acp, 9x18, 9mm all reduced loads without problems,
45acp groups especially well, I have read of reduced charges causing problems but never seen it in my 40 plus years of reloading, most kabooms
are over loads or a squib load fired first. Just an opinion.
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Old April 18, 2005, 07:45 PM   #6
Ranger61
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I load a 44 Mag case with 225 grain gas check RCBS cast bullet over 7.0 grains of Titegroup. I've shot about 500 of them out of various 44 Mag guns with no problem. One of my favorite target loads is a 205 grain cast wadcutter from a Lee bullet mold over 5.9 grains of Titegoup with a velocity from my Dan Wesson 44 Mag at 917 fps. I have shoot about 1K of this load in the last year.
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Old April 18, 2005, 07:47 PM   #7
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klw,

Can you tell us a little more about the details ?

I routinely shoot the 500S&W with the 350 XTP ahead of 15gr of Titegroup.

Shoots clean, accurate as I can ask for and exactly zero problems (so far).

I have sent dozens of these downrange with no signs of excessive pressure.

Can you reference a link to the thread that discusses this at length you mention in your post.

Thanks

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Old April 18, 2005, 08:27 PM   #8
klw
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500 problems

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/ubb...rm/f/530103904 has at least two threads about serious problems with the 500. One is my gun's detonation. The other is about a single action revolver that split its barrel. Just do a search on detonations.
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Old April 19, 2005, 10:40 AM   #9
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The 70% case volume thing with Titegroup sounds spooky... I've used 5 - 5.5 grains in .45 Colt cases and 3.5 grains in .357 cases for CAS loads for thousands of rounds with no problems. IMR's new Trail Boss powder will cure the case volume problem for CAS shooters when it hits the market. It's made very bulky to take up the case volume when using low charge weights like this.
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Old April 19, 2005, 10:49 AM   #10
Zak Smith
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I've shot thousands of these two Titegroup loads with zero problems:

44RM, 240gr plated FP
8.0gr Titegroup

45ACP, 200gr plated RN
5.1gr Titegroup
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Old April 19, 2005, 05:50 PM   #11
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I'll second the concerns about a 70% Titegroup charge. I've loaded it in more pedestrian cartridges, and a proper charge looks lost in the bottom of a case. In a 45 ACP it looks a little small, but in a case such as a 38 special you have to look hard to even see a charge of Titegroup. I have zero experience with the 500, but please do not fill a case designed for regular pistol pressures to anything approaching 70 percent with Titegroup.
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Old April 19, 2005, 05:53 PM   #12
Zak Smith
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It doesn't sound like you're seconding klw's concerns- more like contradicting. klw said to not use less than 70% charge volume, and it sounds like you're saying that 70% would be an overcharge in almost all pistol cartridges.
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Old April 19, 2005, 06:13 PM   #13
griz
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I was seconding Jbar4Ranch's concerns. If there is any confusion; 70% is too much Titegroup in any cartridge I know of. The 500 may be an exception, but I suspect 16 grains is still way below 70 percent in that huge case.
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Old April 19, 2005, 06:22 PM   #14
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Try Titegroup in a .45 colt 6 grains and the case looks empty had no problems.
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Old April 19, 2005, 06:34 PM   #15
klw
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70%

I'm NOT saying that you should fill 70% of a case with titegroup. I am saying that whatever powder you use should fill as least 70% of the case so as to exclude the possibility of a double charge. Clearly powder selection should be based on current reloading manual recommendations.
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Old April 19, 2005, 07:40 PM   #16
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Check the wording on your 70% post. I think you said it a little different than you meant to.
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Old April 19, 2005, 07:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
All the charges were weighed out on one of the new RCBS powder systems. After being put into a case the next die on my Lyman turret checked powder heights. Beyond that the RCBS powder system counts the number of charges it has delivered and I line the cartridges up in a row where I can see them all. This doesn't absolutely guarantee that I didn't make a mistake but it certainly reduced the odds.
Interesting. Glad your ok. This is curious though. Sounds like you have a pretty good failsafe setup going. You probably did not do anything wrong but have you doublechecked the equipment? I went to Hodgens website and found your load data and boy oh boy is there a small range of charge between starting and max load! (<1.5g) Have you doublechecked the equipment? Have you checked the accuracy of the RCBS powder unit against another conventional scale and with check weights?

The Lyman powder checker system...it locks out if its light or heavy, correct? Whats the range on it from light lock out to heavy lockout!? Have you ever tried to determine that? And how much crimp did you use?

All this new fangled equipment in the marketplace sure speeds up the reloading process, but is not infallible. The big boys like hodgen are not infallible either but they have more expensive equipment than we have and undoubtably do countless testing. What I'm getting at is maybe it wasn't operator error or data error but equipment error. Have you explored those possibilities?

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Old April 19, 2005, 09:20 PM   #18
klw
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Best Defense

No matter how hard you try it is still possible to screw up. About all you can do is maximize your odds of doing everything right.

If I were to load for this round again (that will NEVER happen), about the only change I'd made would be switching from a turret press to a progressive. On a progressive you can tell at a glance what step you are at. For example if the bullet is seated at the bullet seating station you know that that has been done and that there is already one charge in the case at the powder station.

I've also firmed up my opinion on small charges. I use to think that those were safe. Now I'm not so sure. Still the 70% rule certainly is an idea (not mine) that will ensure that you don't double up your charges.

My concern about the inherent safety of the 500's, however, continues. At worst a detonation might be possible. At best you've got VERY serious recoil to contend with. Having tried it I'm certainly not going to tempt fate again. I was REALLY lucky this time and I don't want to tempt fate again.
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Old April 20, 2005, 04:40 PM   #19
Edward429451
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I hear ya. The .500 is still an infant in the cartridge world so time will tell if there's an inherent flaw or dangerousness in it. Or maybe Titegroup just isnt the best powder for it. ??
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Old April 20, 2005, 04:51 PM   #20
Zak Smith
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Using bulky powders is one "solution" to double charging, however, it is preferrable to clean up one's reloading practices such that double charges never happen.

klw,

So which is it? Are you claiming that < 70% charges of Titegroup will detonate, or are you saying merely that 70% charges will make a double-charge obvious?

If it's the former, we need some good hard evidence. If it's the latter, maybe you need to clean up your reloading practices insteading of blaming the kaBoom on Titegroup.

USPSA/IPSC shooters have shot millions of rounds with Titegroup and even lower volumetric charges of Clays and don't seem to have detonation problems.

In summary, What is your thesis?

-z
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Old April 20, 2005, 04:56 PM   #21
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IMR Trail Boss wasn't made bulky to prevent double charging, it was to solve the problem of inconsistent ignition when using tiny charges of 2.5 to 5 grains of denser powders like Titegroup, Clays, Bullseye, 231, etc. in .357, .45 Colt or .44-40 cases.
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