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Old June 17, 2004, 05:30 PM   #1
stinger
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Bad Customer Service from Lee Precision...they called me a liar!!!

I posted this over at THR, but wanted to give it a run over here as well...


Why I will NEVER do business with Lee Precision.

This could be a long story, so sit tight until we get to the good part. I'll provide a brief synopsis at the beginning for those of you who hate long threads (like me).

Synopsis:
Lee demands that I return some mysterious package that I didn't order/receive. I refuse on the grounds that it is impossible to return what you never received. After several attempts to explain to Lee Precision that I never received this package, I realize they just don't get it, and I forget about it, until I need to order parts for a Lee Loadmaster. The parts never arrive, so I call to check on the situation.
After explaining the situation yet again, John Lee says, "I don't trust you," to me.

I will never buy a Lee product again.

And now for the story:
A couple of months ago, I made an order with Lee Precision. I ordered a set of Carbide Dies for .45acp. I received the package and everything was as it should be, or so I thought. UPS put it on my front porch. My wife put it in the garage, as I wasn't in town at the time.

Here is the tricky part. Lee Precision claims that they sent me another package, with a 375 winchester crimp die, and an Anniversary Package. This was apparently a mistake, and was supposed to go to somebody else.

Alrighty, so some time passes (a few days, possibly a week or two) and I get a phone call from one of Lee Precisions fine customer service representatives .
She informs me that there has been some mistake with a package and that I received a package by mistake. She would like me to return the package.

Well, that's news to me, how could I receive a package that I wasn't aware of. I informed the very rude customer service representative that I had been out of town, and that I would check on the package.

Well, I check the usual spot in the garage, no package. I ask my wife, no package.

So I get back in touch with Lee Precision, and inform the lovely customer service representative of the bad news. They might have sent the package, but I do not have it. Guess what, guys and gals, Mrs. Sweetie informs me that I DO have the package, and that I need to send it back.

Hold on a second here, Hon', I just told you that I don't/never had the package, so how can I send back something that I don't have?

Okay, she says, I'll check with UPS and we'll get this resolved.
Great...problem solved, right? Not so fast.

Another call from Lee Precision stating that, yet again, I DO have the package. Lesson number one...if Lee Precision says it is so, then it certainly must be. They apparently have mystical powers that allow them to know all.

I tell the lady exactly what I told her before. Now I will speak to UPS. Okay, a driver comes over to my house and I tell him what has happened. I call UPS and tell them what happened. I figured that the problem was finally solved. I don't know anything about the package. It may or may not have been delivered to my house, when somebody just sticks something on your porch, who can be sure?

Well, I know that this has been a long story so far, and thanks for staying tuned. This exact encounter with Lee's fine Customer Service Department went on one more time, in almost this exact same manner. I was hung up on by two different Representatives. Everytime I asked to speak to a manager, or someone in charge, they weren't available. They just did not seem to understand that I DO NOT HAVE YOUR PACKAGE!!!

Okay, I go to make a purchase of some additional parts for my Lee Loadmaster (another story, another thread). It is un-operational, and I needed to get it up and running.

So two weeks go by, and I finally call Lee to check on my parts for the Loadmaster. They refuse to send me my package because of the previous situation. They say that I owe them $41.96.

Again, I go over the situation with the same unpleasant Customer Service Representative. Do you want to know where the bad customer service comes from? It comes from the top.

They put Richard on the phone, and I go over the story for the 9 millionth time. I keep explaining to him that I do not have the package, and never did have the package.

He says he is going to check out the situation and call me back. He calls back within the hour. He informs me that after checking out the situation, he just doesn't believe my story.

I am shocked

What's not to believe? I do not have the package, never did order the package, never did receive the package, etc., etc., etc. I have never had a company tell me that they didn't believe me before, so yeah, I'm shocked here.

I asked him how he could run a business if he did not trust his customers. He said that he did trust his customers.
I said, "You don't trust me?!?"
This is a direct quote from John Lee, "I don't trust you."

Obviously, I will never deal with Lee Precision again. I'm not even mad...I'm more shocked than anything. I can't believe that a company can be so dense. How many times can you explain to them that you don't have something? How many times can you be treated like crap on the telephone for something you never did? How does the owner of a company tell you, "I don't trust you," when you never did anything to begin with.

What do you guys think?


Stinger
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Old June 17, 2004, 05:31 PM   #2
stinger
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I also posted this, and maybe it will help clear up some confusion...

There were apparently two packages, one I ordered, and one that was sent by mistake.

UPS does not have a signature of any kind, but it says that a woman received it. My wife picked up the package that I did order off of the porch one evening after work. Nobody signed for it. I have had UPS ring the doorbell and leave the package on the porch without waiting for an answer on many occassions. That is probably what happened here.

When one of the drivers came over to check on the "missing" package, I told him that I never received the package. He tried to get me to sign a form that I received both packages, but I told him I would do no such thing.

The next day, Lee called back saying that they talked to UPS and were told that I DID receive both packages, and were wondering when they could collect payment.

I'm at a loss with both companies for being so moronic. I hate bad customer service, and I hate it worse when somebody is just trying to cover their fanny. I can't imagine trying to run a company and stay in business with the terrible customer service that many companies give today.

Regards,

Stinger
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Old June 17, 2004, 05:38 PM   #3
stinger
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Oops,

I meant to put this in General Discussion, could a moderator possibly move it for me.

Thanks,

Stinger
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Old June 17, 2004, 07:47 PM   #4
Denny Hansen
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Moved to Retail Deals and Feedback.

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Old June 17, 2004, 07:51 PM   #5
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Surprised by Lee's actions. NOT surprised by UPS' tactics. Their entire organization is run amuck with theives in my experience.

I'll refrain from the littany of Dillon-owner remarks that will undoubtedly insue regarding their superlative customer service...

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Old June 17, 2004, 08:31 PM   #6
Quartus
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I never send a package via UPS without checking off that little box that says "Signature required". I don't want them leaving something on a porch, or hidden behind some garbage pails, or any of the other nonsense that they pull.

Customer Service 101 for anybody who ships UPS:
  1. Understand how UPS delivers. (Porches, garbage pails, etc.)
  2. If there's no signature, benefit of the doubt goes to the customer, NOT UPS!


Oh, and who's fault was it they shipped something to the wrong place?



Even if you ARE lying, stinger (and I'm not saying you ARE), that was pretty stupid for Lee. When you are in business, you eat your own mistakes. Sometimes you even need to eat your customer's mistakes.


Maybe you should direct them to this thread, so they can see how stupid it was to trash their name for something that was their own mistake in the first place.

OR maybe they have a different side to tell. That would be fair.
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Old June 18, 2004, 02:45 PM   #7
stinger
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They posted their side of the story on THR.


Follow this link Lee's Response

Thanks,

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Old June 18, 2004, 04:39 PM   #8
Quartus
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The guy needs to learn some basic lessons, one of which is,

When you're in a hole, STOP DIGGING!



He's not real bright, is he?
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Old June 20, 2004, 01:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
If there's no signature, benefit of the doubt goes to the customer, NOT UPS!
Exactly. No sig=it was not delivered. This one's on UPS, and on the seller for trying to blame someone other than UPS.
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Old June 20, 2004, 03:26 PM   #10
cma g21
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As I posted on THR:
I have been a Lee customer since I bought my first Lee Loader many decades ago. I have also purchased Lee dies, presses, priming tools, shotshell loader, etc.
No more!
Dillon and RCBS, here I come.
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Old June 20, 2004, 04:36 PM   #11
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I agree with ya'll....in fact, mail me all your Lee stuff and I'll have it destroyed!
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Old June 24, 2004, 01:31 PM   #12
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Postscript to story:
See Mr. Lee's last response here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...83#post1073783

Mistakes were made. Mistakes were owned up to. I give him the TFL Class Act Award to June 2004.
Rich
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Old June 24, 2004, 03:09 PM   #13
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I'm not sold. Yes, mistakes were made, and some were acknowledged, but according to stinger, things have not been made right with him yet.
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Old June 24, 2004, 05:58 PM   #14
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Quartus-
The guy came onto a forum to apologize and admit his mistake. He didn't blame a worker for providing him bad input; didn't excuse his behavior in the least. He took it on the chin like a man. It's obvious that he isn't familiar with the venue or such public discussion. Do we really believe that he posted what he did, signed off and said, "Yeah, but I'm still gonna ding that guy for 41 bucks, he-he-he"?

C'mon. Where's the percentage in that for him?

Sometimes I think these sites develop a real mob mentality....just cause we can.
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Old June 24, 2004, 07:11 PM   #15
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If ya wanna see bad customer service do a search here on Robinson Arms.
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Old June 24, 2004, 07:45 PM   #16
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I understand that, Rich, and I DO give him credit for that. But I don't see that he understands mistake #1 here - taking UPS's word over a customers. Calling a customer a liar - or even deciding quietly that he is one - when there's NO documentation that the package was received, is NOT the right thing to do!

And he did the right thing in apolgizing for HIS remarks, but what about his employees treatment of a customer?
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Old June 24, 2004, 08:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
But I don't see that he understands mistake #1 here - taking UPS's word over a customers. Calling a customer a liar - or even deciding quietly that he is one - when there's NO documentation that the package was received, is NOT the right thing to do!
Q-
I read his 2 posts also. Obviously the guy doesn't live in the anal retentive world of "Lemme go back and read exactly what you accused", that we enjoy. He admitted a real failure of his company. He put the "Buck Stops Here" sign on his desk for the world to see. I just don't think we can judge him by our own "lemme recheck that thread" standard. Nor do I think his company internals, recriminations and adjustments need to be placed on the public slate for vote.

I've no skin in this game....never ordered a Lee product in my life. But I do understand what goes thru the mind of a good business owner when the company and employees screw up.....it's called guilt. He can't publicly pillory an employee when he's questioning whether it was him that created the culture. He can, at best, admit publicly what is going on and take full responsibilty. What he does behind the scenes is not our business and can only be judged with time. Open your mind to his world a bit.
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Old June 24, 2004, 08:39 PM   #18
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I just don't think we can judge him by our own "lemme recheck that thread" standard. Nor do I think his company internals, recriminations and adjustments need to be placed on the public slate for vote.
No argument here, but that's not what I'm looking for. The core of the issue is that he and his people assumed - no, INSISTED - that stinger did recieve a package when there was no documentation of it. They didn't allow the least possibility that UPS screwed up. The rudeness flowed from that assumption. It's the root cause, and it hasn't been addressed.


Quote:
Open your mind to his world a bit.
Been there, done that, Rich. I've been in business in the past. If I'm told by a customer that my people screwed up, the LEAST the customer will hear from me is that [whatever the bad behaviour was] is NOT the way I want my customers treated and I will look into it.

That's BEFORE I've ever asked my people their side of it. If I find that a customer WAS treated badly he'll get an apology that he was treated badly by my people. He WON'T be privy to what is being done about it, but he WILL be assured that steps are being taken to correct the situation.

I don't think that's too much to ask.
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Old June 24, 2004, 09:15 PM   #19
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I don't see that as the "point" at all Quart, nor do I think Mr. Lee did....he, as I, was looking at the more global issue of how we respond to customer complaints, not "how, exactly, did I treat this one?". To my eye, you're still judging by the internet forum standard of "You said my Mom dresses me funny, then you called me a liar. You apologized, but I didn't see the specific apology to the 'liar' part."

There was, admittedly, much heated discussion on both sides between employee and customer before owner was called in. Owner jumped the wrong way. Owner apologized. Owner will make changes or not...time will tell.

But it's the apparent need to pillory, that I will agree to disagree on. Mr. Lee probably grew up in a time when strangers called each other "Mr." and it was an insult to both to require resolution in front of a public crowd of more strangers. Let's not send the message that his biggest mistake was being man enough to respond in public at all (as opposed to private email).
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Old June 25, 2004, 11:34 AM   #20
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I think you're reading me wrong, Rich. I'm not interested in pillorying him. I do applaud him for coming to a public forum and apologizing, and I don't expect him to make public every detail of what he's doing to make things right with stinger.

All I'm saying is that I don't see evidence that he understands what the root problem is. The "You're a liar" problem is the RESULT of a wrong idea - the idea that UPS's word is Gospel truth, and any disagreement between a customer and UPS is automatically resolved in UPS's favor.

That's backwards. It's equivalent to you telling a customer he's a liar because the USPS says they delivered his copies of SWAT, and the customer says he didn't get them.
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Old June 25, 2004, 01:58 PM   #21
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Quart-
I wasn't referring to you specifically....sorry.

But what we have here is a thread opened about bad customer service. Courtesy requires that a follow up be done regarding Mr. Lee stepping up, even if you consider it partial. I don't see anyone here demanding that apology on behalf of a company that's been serving the shooting community for a couple of generations.

As to the, "You're a liar" comment, please remember that the author stated he'd had repeated and heated conversations with the Lee Staff. I assumed from Lee's approach that, when it was finally escalated to him, staff had described the customer as trouble. Lee took them at there word. He was wrong. He apologized for his reaction.

Yes, he could come back and apologize in public for every aspect of the exchanges, naming them specifically. But then, stinger might consider a personal apology for not mentioning that Lee has offered to send him the requested parts. Then I could apologize for missing some nuance of the story. You could apologize for assuming I'd misread. We could all have a group hug.....

And still there'd be those who wouldn't be satisfied.
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Old June 25, 2004, 02:59 PM   #22
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Apology???

nevermind i continued reading and found the apology

Last edited by asinner1979; June 25, 2004 at 04:43 PM.
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Old June 25, 2004, 04:30 PM   #23
Quartus
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Quote:
Yes, he could come back and apologize in public for every aspect of the exchanges, naming them specifically. But then, stinger might consider a personal apology for not mentioning that Lee has offered to send him the requested parts. Then I could apologize for missing some nuance of the story. You could apologize for assuming I'd misread. We could all have a group hug.....
Oh, bleh! :barf:






I just hope he's figured out that UPS can screw up, and maybe that he needs to make some adjustments with his CS folks.
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Old July 19, 2004, 10:48 AM   #24
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10 pages on THR?!

Wow. Remind me not to **** that bunch off.

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