The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Lock and Load: Live Fire Exercises

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 18, 2002, 03:01 PM   #26
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Real Deal

Understood,

Now- no one said anything about lasers- visibile lasers have no real function except to make money for those making or selling.

But if you want to know about "serious dudes" and what they carry....
Our M4A1's have the following.
A KAC RAS
Verticle fore end
Tac sling
An Optic. Either an Aimpoint M2; ACOG; or AN/PVS-17.
The Aimpoint is used most often.
A White Light- either a SureFire M900 or a SureFire M962
An AN/PEQ-2A, whicj is an IR illuminator and an IR Laser aiming dot.

The first 4 are always on the carbine- the last two are mission specific.

Like i said, too bad you can't attend the May class.
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 18, 2002, 03:03 PM   #27
Denny Hansen
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,363
444-
I used iron sights and certainly did not feel unarmed, but I will tell you that I'm looking at Trijicon's reflex to mount on my carbine.

What one person likes another may not. I use the Fobus handguards with built-in rails on my carbine, and I have a pretty good guess that Pat would disagree with me on that choice.

Part of any school experience is to find out what does/does not work. What may be great for a Spec Op operator may not suit your individual needs. Pat has offered some superb advice here for a starting point.

Go, have fun, and learn from the experience.

Denny
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline  
Old December 18, 2002, 10:43 PM   #28
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
Quote:
Mini 14's are generally not up to the task due to lack of ergonomics and fragility. I don't believe that we ever had one that lasted for the whole week.
What actually broke on them? I've read heard that from several people. What about the AC556?
__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline  
Old December 19, 2002, 07:58 AM   #29
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Chicken sandwich from chicken feces- it ain't gonna' happen

I have only had two minis in a carbine class. A TV crew did a 13 part series for the outdoor channel on Gunsite last year. The star was given a carbine- a mini- by the distributor. I recommended two.
Both went TU by Thur and she finished the class with my M4.
One gun lost headspace immediately. The other had a defective trigger group, with multiple problems.

The lack of ergonomics is the big show stoper though. Having the mechanical safety inside the trigger guard was cool in 1936, but we know more now, and that is plain stupid. The problems with magazines (aftermarket), mag changes, sights etc just make this a casual rather than a fighting gun.

As to the full auto AC556. Well, why would we believe that a select fire version would perform any better then the semi auto gun?
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 19, 2002, 12:08 PM   #30
S&W 24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: MPLS MN
Posts: 162
soo this begs the question are there any non-AR types that are up to the task? I am thinking on going to a local class with my 1903/a3 because thats what I own and I won't be buying another rifle for some time. As long as the rifle will hold up and you can figure out a system that works won't that get you thru or do I need an uber-rifle. I'm not trying to start a war I'm just want to know if I'm wasting money if I go to a carbine class without a assualt blaster of your choise (ar/ak/fal/g3 etc).
__________________
If it ain't loaded it's just a rock
in your pocket.
S&W 24 is offline  
Old December 19, 2002, 01:22 PM   #31
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Beats Me

I guess the question is what kind of class is it?
In a carbine class a full size rifle is contraindicated, for obvious reasons.
So would a FAL or G3. They are rifles, not carbines, and have a different purpose.
I'll tell you that at Gunsite a carbine class is meant to be just that- fighting from contact distance to 100 yds, though you'll shoot out to 300 or (if the class is good) to 400 yds just as a confidence builder.

At CQB or CQE distance a full sized gun is a handicap. A bolt action rifle is a detriment under certain circumstances.
Pretty much the same as a 5.56 carbine not being useful out past 300 yds, but your 03A3 maybe being the heat.

Guns are tools. use the right tool for the job. You may consider a 5.56mm carbine to be something more or less than what it actually is, but it is neither uber nor blaster- it is a specific tool for a series of mission specific jobs.
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 19, 2002, 07:40 PM   #32
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,416
S&W 24, I've seen it done (using a raffle in a carbyne class). However, to use Pat's analogy, if you go to a screwdriver class, why take a hammer?

Just think of it as a reason to buy more guns! "Honey, some guy on the Internet told me to buy more guns. We'll have to wait on the new sofa."
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline  
Old December 19, 2002, 08:03 PM   #33
Quartus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,823
Quote:
"Honey, some guy on the Internet told me to buy more guns. We'll have to wait on the new sofa."

Congratulations, Pat! You've been promoted! You're now "some guy on the Internet"!


__________________
.

Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.
Quartus is offline  
Old December 19, 2002, 08:33 PM   #34
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Be still my heart...

I will sleep easier tonight, knowing that my secret agenda- to make more good guys buy more guns- has been fulfilled!

Sweet Dreams!
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 05:02 PM   #35
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,416
Cap'n, no, no, no. "Some guy" is me. THE Pat Rogers will always be THE Pat Rogers.
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 05:59 PM   #36
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
What's the consensus on mounting optics on AR's? Are flat-tops more popular? I see more flat-tops for domestic use but more handle mounted for Military use.
__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 06:09 PM   #37
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Frame of Reference

Sir,
I'm not sure where you have been looking, but the M4 and M4A1 Carbines are flattops, and the optics are mounted thereon.
All of the military M4/M4A1's that i have seen, shot or worked with, have had a flattop mounted optic.

There is no use for a handle mounted optic, unless one has a legacy gun or just didn't think far enough ahead to get a flattop.
The normal offset between LOB and LOS on the AR is 2.5".
If you mount an optic on the carru handle, it adds another 1" or so, depending on the mount/ optic.
That means at CQB distance, you will have to hold over his head to get a CNS shot. It also precludes cheek weld, something necessary if you are going to get those rapid, accurate shots into your opponent.

In the last 3 years at Gunsite, i have seen a total of 3 people who had an optic mounted on top of the carry handle.
By Day 2 they all wished that they had something else.
Hope this helps.
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 06:21 PM   #38
Denny Hansen
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,363
Pat-
When are you going to be in the area again?

Denny
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 06:28 PM   #39
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Good Question

Depends on current events. I'm scheduled for a Chief's Special in April, and then a 250, 223, 556, and 2 Man Team Carbine in May.

Right now that is solid, but i may be there earlier for another special or not at all.

We'll see........

How have you been?
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 06:32 PM   #40
Denny Hansen
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,363
Been good. Thanks.
Snowing here now and colder than a witches, uh, foot.

Hope to see you in April or May.

To keep this OT, your article on tactical slings is in the next issue I'm working on

Denny
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 06:34 PM   #41
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Warm here

It is a lot warmer here, but that will change. What issue will the Sling article be in?
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 06:37 PM   #42
Denny Hansen
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,363
May cover date. Ships to subscribers on 03/03/03.
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 06:51 PM   #43
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
Quote:
I'm not sure where you have been looking, but the M4 and M4A1 Carbines are flattops, and the optics are mounted thereon.
Maybe I've been watching too much tv, the majority of optics in "BlackHawk Down" are mounted on the handle. I have a couple pictures of troops in Afghanistan with handle mounted optics.
__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 07:24 PM   #44
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Sodapop,
Roger, but the Somalia incident was a long time ago, over 9 years in the past. While the M4 has been around since 86, it wasn't in use across the board until 96.

What weapons did you see handle mounted optics on? What kind of optics?
If it was the Big Army, then they were M16A2's, which have a non removable handle. Still, there is a gooseneck mount that permits the optic to be mounted in front of the carry handle.

You may have seen an unauthorized set up, or a field expedient one.
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 07:44 PM   #45
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
Quote:
Roger, but the Somalia incident was a long time ago, over 9 years in the past. While the M4 has been around since 86, it wasn't in use across the board until 96
I thought it was something like that. The whole A3 thing is starting to pop in my neck of the woods. I actually looked into getting one but ended up with the XM15E2. I may go with a shorty A3 next time around.

I have a picture of a US NEWS and World report with a soldier on the side of a mountain in Afghanistan with an M4 with an ACOG. I'll see if I can look around the house for the article and scan it. The gun looked really beaten up.

If I come home with an ACOG or Shorty A3 tomorrow its your fault, Pat.

*Big gunshow here in Pennsylvania this weekend*
__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline  
Old December 20, 2002, 10:24 PM   #46
blades67
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 1999
Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA
Posts: 6,014
The Mini-14 that lost headspace, was it being loaded with 5.56 NATO or .223 Rem. ammunition?

I see from Denny's post that the AR 15's are so reliable that some owners have to bring "a bag of spare parts" to keep them running, but the Mini-14 is "fragile".
__________________
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

I hunt, therefore I am.
blades67 is offline  
Old December 21, 2002, 12:54 AM   #47
Quartus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,823
blades, instructors of Pat's caliber across the country see hundreds of rifles run through their courses, firing thousands of rounds each year. They all say the same. Minis don't cut it. A quality AR clone does. When people with that much experience speak, amateurs like you and me could learn something by listening.

NO weapon is perfect, not even <GASP!> the M-1 Garand. They all break, they all need repair. The question is, which ones break a lot, and which ones break a little, under hard use?

The minis break a lot. The ARs break a little. A mini will do fine for the range, the ranch, and the occasional hard plinking. But they weren't designed for combat use, and these kind of classes put them through more than they can handle, and it shows.
__________________
.

Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.
Quartus is offline  
Old December 21, 2002, 01:31 AM   #48
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
I've put over 6000rds threw my Mini 14 and never had anything break. But I wouldn't expect it take a beating at the same pace an AR would. I've heated up my Mini 14 and I could tell the thing was close to melting. My AR heats up and shows no signs of stress. I honestly think firing more than 50rds a minute threw the Mini 14 (especially with NATO ammo) will stress the gun and cause it to loose headspace or warp. I put 150rds threw it in about 5 minutes and the barrel changed from SS to a brownish yellow. Its now gone back to SS.

Kind of makes me worry about pushing it too hard.

But mine last 6000rds so far. Let's see if my XM15E2 can cut it. With all the flaws the AR has, Its still probable the best carbine.
__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline  
Old December 21, 2002, 06:58 AM   #49
Pat Rogers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Don't shoot the messenger

Blades,
The shooter was using PMC ball.

It has been my experience that the Colt AR's will generally work if not modified w/ aftermarket triggers and such. Quality Parts are a close second. The other makers guns will work or not, but QC is an issue.
You can draw an analogy to cars. Chevy/Ford/MB /BMW/ et al all make a good car. However, unless your name is God or you just started pumping guns / cars out today, you will turn out a lemon. If the basic design interfaced with the users doctrine on driving (don't take a super economy car to a 4WD championship and expect to do well) you will have something that suits your needs.

If you are a backyard apprentice bricklayer and decide to build the car to end all cars, you may not be happy with the results.

The same is true with the so called "Frankenguns" that are put together POS. They will cause problems.
Or as my Dad used to say "You can't make chicken salad with Chicken feces".

The mini is non ergonomic.
The safety is poorly located. It has a target disc type rear sight in a gun that exhibits poor (but acceptable under 50yds) accuracy.
Magazine changes are slow and ponderous.
Magazines (that work) are difficult to come by.

People bring AR's to the class- and use them for real- because they work best in that environment. If the mini did, they would use them.

Anyone that attends a shooting course without having certain spare parts (or beter yet, a spare gun) is cutting themselves short.
Parts wear and parts break. Not all AR's are created equal, nor are all AR parts equal.

Again- don't shoot the messenger. Would you rather that i lie about what does and does not work?
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline  
Old December 21, 2002, 12:05 PM   #50
444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,727
Denny: What kind of weather should I prepare for in March ? I would imagine that it is pretty much like it is here ?

Pat: Let's talk maintainence. I recently saw a publication from Gunsite that very briefly discussed lubrication of the AR15. They said that the biggest culpret in malfunctions was over-lubrication. They advised a very small amount of lube on the bolt. This is contrary to everything else I have read on the subject. What do you say ?

I started running yesterday. I need to get in a lot better shape not only for this course but I have my physical in two months including the treadmill. I really let myself go after not getting an elk tag for the last two years. Haven't cut back on the food and beer yet; that will be an after the holidays event.

I am working overtime on XMAS day and will hopefully pick up at least 48 more hours of overtime next week. That should get me a lot of the stuff I "need" for this course.

I have been out shooting my AR at least a couple times a week since deciding to take this course. Hopefully I am not reinforcing too many bad habits, but at least I am getting much more familiar with my rifle. However, if everything goes right between now and the course, I won't be using the rifles I have now which are both A2s with the carry handle and iron sights. I ordered a flat top upper from Bushmaster, but of course they told me it would be like six weeks. I more than likely will buy another complete rifle before the class since I know this upper will take longer than they say. What would be your suggestion for a new rifle. I know Pat prefers the Colts, but I never see any Colts in the stores. Bushmaster seems to be the main rifle I see around. I never asked my local dealer about getting a Colt. Does Colt still make AR15s for the public ?
444 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13332 seconds with 7 queries