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Old November 23, 2002, 08:13 AM   #1
BILLY THE KID
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Federal EFMJ

Are federal expanding full metal jacket rounds legal in states that don't allow HP? Like say NJ? and has anyone used them report please. Thanks
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Old November 23, 2002, 08:28 AM   #2
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I bought some to try out and they seemed to work OK. The bullets expanded nicely when shot into jugs of water.
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Old November 23, 2002, 10:14 AM   #3
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My guess is : Anything that's worth bothing with is illegal in NJ.
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Old November 23, 2002, 11:04 AM   #4
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This is a common misperception. Here's exactly what the law says, from NJ 2C:30-1, which also pertains to armor-penetrating rounds:
Quote:
f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet... is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.
However, the other subsections tell us:
Quote:
(2)Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, nor shall subsection f...
So, here's the translation:
If you're a bad guy, and are holding up a liquor store with hollow points, it's one more thing they can hang on you. If you're a good guy, defending your home, it doesn't apply, because you're on your own premisis. In either case, a 4th degree offense isn't on the radar, because if you're charged with this, it's probably because you've done something else SIGNIFICANTLY wrong, and this is just one more tidbit for them to plea-bargain away, in the process of getting a conviction on the larger offense.
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Old November 23, 2002, 12:31 PM   #5
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Sorry if I am the dum-dum here, but what exactly is a dum-dum bullet?

BTW, I use EFMJ in my carry weapon and I've found them to be reliable. Haven't tested expansion though.
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Old November 23, 2002, 02:41 PM   #6
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Dum Dum bullets are what idiot liberals call Hollow Point bullets.
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Old November 23, 2002, 02:52 PM   #7
Mike Irwin
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Dum Dum is a generic name for expanding bullets.

It came from bullets developed for, I believe, the .303 rifle at the Dum Dum arsenal in India in the late 1800s.
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Old November 23, 2002, 04:54 PM   #8
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A Dum-Dum is a full metal jacket or lead bullet that has been scored across the nose in a cross pattern which looks like a "+" and will cause the bullet to expand..
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Old November 23, 2002, 10:16 PM   #9
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RK, here are some photos of EFMJ and the Winchester Ranger / Black Talon:
http://www.gothammarketing.com/rck/ballistics.htm
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Old November 24, 2002, 12:41 AM   #10
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Wow, thanks for all the info.

Looks like pretty good expansion to me. I'll keep using them.
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Old November 24, 2002, 01:04 AM   #11
Jim March
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I'm of the opinion that the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball is an even better design than the E-FMJ. At present the Cor-Bon alternative is a .45ACP thing only but they're promising to eventually get away from JHPs altogether in favor of the Pow'R'Ball type projectile.

This is my opinion will be a good thing. As with the E-FMJ, it's "clogproof" on clothes...but the Cor-Bon version expands to a much wider end stage. The one advantage to the E-FMJ is that it works across a broader velocity range; if I had a 16" barrel 9mm/40/45ACP the E-FMJ would be my top pick, it won't "come unglued" in the target at the extra velocity.

New Jersey is a bit more likely to class the Cor-Bon as a "hollowpoint" than they would the E-FMJ.
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Old November 24, 2002, 01:09 AM   #12
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What Jim said!
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Old November 24, 2002, 10:00 AM   #13
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Thanks guys for the help. The picture were cool too.
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Old November 25, 2002, 08:44 AM   #14
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As far as I know...sorry, I didnt read the thread entirely , Fed EFMJ's were made for exactly where you live..where people cant carry hollow points among other reaons...I read a great article on them that was linked from TFL a while ago....great read.
In my own testing..no gelatin..just water, plastic jugs, targets and a chrono...Im pretty impressed with them and their performance. They seem to chrono right at Feds specs and are very accurate rounds...although they do shoot high out of one of my guns....oh well. The expand very consistantly in water testing..not very scientific mind you..but still a test.
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Old November 26, 2002, 02:47 AM   #15
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Let me clarify that I'm not "slamming" the E-FMJ, I think it's a really great round. It would be the ultimate, 'cept for most cases Cor-Bon went 'em one better .

That said, the E-FMJ expands across an unbelievably broad velocity range. They'd be awesome as a "snubby 38 answer"; it wouldn't take much for Federal to re-size the 124grain 9mm projectile up a hair and load it as-is in 38spl cases...but they're saying it's going to be a 9mm/40/45ACP product only. The damnfools are focused on the feed reliability, and not thinking about the clog resistence and broad velocity compatibility which in my opinion are even cooler, and just as critical for wheelgunners.
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Old November 26, 2002, 07:48 AM   #16
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If the people at Federal are thinking about the E-FMJ only in terms of feed reliability, then they are very wrong.

I dont see how the E-FMJ will feed any better than a JHP or a SWC, considering its shape.
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Old November 26, 2002, 08:15 AM   #17
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I posted a question about this ammo over on Glock Talk and got this link:

http://www.ammolab.com/federal_efmj.htm
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Old November 26, 2002, 12:07 PM   #18
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Federal EFMJ

FWIW, here is a photo of a recovered .40 cal EFMJ that I fired from a Walther P99 4" bbl. at a distance of 10-12 feet into clean, moist, not wet, playsand.



I have others that look very similar. None failed to expand way beyond their original diameter.

This bullet started life as a 165gr. projectile. The retained weight is 157.7gr.
The expanded diameter is .838 or, as you can clearly see, the size of a US nickel.

The Federal advertised velocity is 1050 fps but they don't say with what barrel length. The velocity from the P99 4" barrel was 981.0 fps avg. of 10 rounds. ES was only 23.5 fps.

Accuracy of this load is as good as or better than any other good defensive .40S&W round that I have tested.

I persoanlly know of tests conducted using the .45 ACP 200gr. +P EFMJ load where the expansion into ballistic gelatin was nearly .60 caliber!
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Old November 26, 2002, 07:30 PM   #19
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Jim, cool results. Looks more like my Ranger SXT than the EFMJ. Man, that'll give a BG a moment of pause!
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Old November 27, 2002, 03:16 PM   #20
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Anyone know of street results with the EFMJ in any caliber?
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Old November 28, 2002, 04:52 PM   #21
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the pictures I have seen didn't look that wicked.
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Old November 28, 2002, 07:39 PM   #22
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On the left is the EFMJ, on the right is a Ranger SXT. These jpg shots are from www.gothammarketing.com/rck/ballistics.htm .
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Old November 28, 2002, 10:02 PM   #23
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The pics Blade67 just posted are much more typical of all the other E-FMJ expanded shots I've seen.

I suspect the sand was just too "harsh" and caused the nosecone area to come totally apart, leading to very atypical performance for this round.

That's OK though...the "sand shot" tells us what's likely to happen if we shoot E-FMJs out of a 16" barrel carbine or similar (Ruger PC40, Marlin Camp Carbine, etc). When "overdriven", the E-FMJ still seems to deliver a useful end state.

Cool . In longer barrels like that, it's probably a better choice than the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball.
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Old November 30, 2002, 11:27 AM   #24
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Depends on how they define "hollow nose/point" or if they borrow the language of the international treaties to decide:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

Federal's EFMJ bullet does/has both (the jacket is internally incised).

They may not plug, but they don't always expand either, and they do come apart too. Have seen the 9/40 fail both ways in gel tests and game.

They are longer bullets at the same weight. That reduces case capacity, so ya get more pressure at the same speed, less speed at the same pressure. Why the 124/9 +P EFMJ only did 1065 fps from my G19.

5 round avgs, FBI test protocol

P45CSP1 200 gr Glock 21 12/14/00

bare gel 978 12.95/.653
cloth 984 13.7/.651
wboard 983 12.15/.676
pwood 982 12.65/.654
steel 992 12.2/.59 (jacket/core sep/77% ret wt)
glass 1002 11.7/.576 (67%)

P45CSP2 165 gr SIG P220 3/6/01

bare gel 1068 9.1/.74
cloth 1032 9.9/.722
wboard 1054 8.9/.726
pwood 1043 9.55/.743
steel 1047 8.15/.58 (71%)
glass 1047 7.85/.578 (61%)

P9CSP1 124 gr SIG P228 1063 fps 1/00

bare gel 12.85/.519
cloth 12.55/.519
wboard 11.1/.525
pwood 13.2/.51
steel 9.5/.466 (65%)
glass 8.5/.511 (60%)

Beretta 92

bare 11.35/.567
cloth 12.1/.552
wboard 10/.563
pwood 10.8/.561
steel 9.33/.492 (65%)
glass 7.9/.526 (55%)


P9CSP1 124 gr HK MP5 1225 fps 1/00

bare gel 11.3/.600
cloth 10.9/.596
wboard 9/.592
pwood 10.3/.596
steel 11.1/.491 (68%)
glass 8.6/.512 (57%)


P40CSP1

bare 12.45/.617
cloth 13.3/.605
wboard 12.8/.610
pwood 15.95/.579
steel 11.65/.513 (72%)
glass 11.75/.530 (67%)

Did about 970 fps from my G23, and the lot I had failed to expand more often than it did, even when pulled and pumped up to over 1100 fps. Bad lot?

Compare to:

147 HS 13/.62 bare, 15/.57 cloth
165 HS 13.5/.63, 14.5/.60
230 HS 13.7/.70, 16.4/.66

The 124 +P 9mm does 1065 from a G19. Into a deer at 15 ft did 14 inches, .56x.59 caliber.

Better than FMJ, but not the better JHPs. So far. Hear there is a 100 gr 9mm at 1200 fps now too? Still no .357SIG, though I have seen pictures of what must be prototypes?
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