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Old November 20, 2002, 03:26 PM   #26
Dave McC
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Giz, back when IPSC was still good training for the street, lots of us were polishing off the blue on various carry guns at the muzzle. Made the hole on the bbl look bigger, my GM looked like a cat could crawl inside.

High profile weaponry can act as a pacifier,IMO, but not always.

Greg, thanks, stop by more often...
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Old November 20, 2002, 06:24 PM   #27
FeelNFroggy79
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Combat Shotgun

My opinion is that you get what you pay for. Ya, the M1 Tactical is pricey, but its probably the most reliable weapon I know of aside from my overall favorite, the M4 Carbine.
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Old November 20, 2002, 07:28 PM   #28
Dave McC
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Be that as it may,79,I'll match the 870's record against any other shotgun, period.

In more than 40 years of use, maybe 50K rounds,I cannot recall any glitches, except with a handful of abused and neglected institutional weapons.

870s are my bet my butt, A/S scenario goto.

But again, the software is so much more important than the hardware. A good shotgunner is good with any shotgun.

Uh, just how close are you to central Md?
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Old November 20, 2002, 07:30 PM   #29
S&W 24
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simply buy a solid pump action and practice alot. Personaly I love the rem 870 and that is what I use but I have fired most other shotguns as well and would not turn down a ithica 37/87 or a norinco 1897.
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Old November 20, 2002, 07:50 PM   #30
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Gkock Glocker, per your original post you stated "the more evil looking the better". You may want to rethink that one. I am under the assumption that this will be for Home Defense. (Doesn't sound like you are assembling a skeet gun). In that role if you are forced to shoot in a defensive situation there will be an aftermath. Think Criminal charges. Think civil suit, think about a jury of 12 of your peers ( a combination of liberal bedwetters and soccermoms). Think about a prosecutor waving a laser sighted, pistol grip, heat shielded, flash lighted, black stocked, side saddled, butt cuffed, evil looking ASSAULT shotgun at the jury! This would be a very cool shotty in the TFL circle but might not be so cool in court. Al in Md
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Old November 20, 2002, 10:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
My opinion is that you get what you pay for. Ya, the M1 Tactical is pricey, but its probably the most reliable weapon I know of aside from my overall favorite, the M4 Carbine.
The SG class I took a few months back had one M1 present. It was the only gun to have any malfunctions. My old pump gun was flawless. I guess it could have been a fluke.

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Old November 20, 2002, 11:21 PM   #32
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I used to shoot original SOF 3 gun matches in early 80s so I HAD to make up a full race 1100. Before that I liked High Standard Flite Kings and Ithaca 37s (alot). 20 years and Louis Auwerbuck classes later its the pre express 870's that I depend on for protection/whatever. Good clean used one tuned up by a good smith is better than any of the high priced new junk (benelli M-1 possibly excepted) IMHO.
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Old November 20, 2002, 11:41 PM   #33
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glock glocker...

Well, 9mmMike predicted what would happen and it did. Kinda like trying to get a drink from a firehose, eh?

I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this thread, but the most fun you might have this year would be to take a weekend or week-long combat shotgun course from some reputable school (see search function). Shoot a thousand rounds and blow away hundreds of targets and feel every single shot from your shoulder to your soul... it doesn't get any better than that!
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Old November 20, 2002, 11:50 PM   #34
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Dave McC--

Sorry I jumped in late here, but Gowd, if you didn't just give me a reason to wish I lived in MD, (or even better, you lived in Texas!) Wish I could take you up on that challenge if only so I could learn a thing or two (or twenty) from you!



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Old November 20, 2002, 11:54 PM   #35
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sorry, just noticed that some of us have been mis-spelling your handle...

glock glockler... with the second L in...

Another thought.... not that glock shooters are wimpy, but you also might want to read Dave McC's posts about recoil, especially if you're gonna shoot (72 caliber) slugs a lot.
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Old November 21, 2002, 05:17 AM   #36
Dave McC
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Thanks, HL. I kinda wish I could get up a match. It would illumunate the fact that Injuns matter more than arrows.And it's usually a lot of fun to meet and shoot with Net buds.

Maybe I can make one of the South PA or North VA TFL shoots....
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Old November 23, 2002, 09:59 AM   #37
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870..

if you dont mind the fees and paperwork for a registered a.o.w(any other weapon)get an 870 entry gun.as compact as they get.the home def. model is a good gun.or just get a express model and add tac star pistol grips(these are good,theyre very hard to break) and a choate mag extension(get the kit with the orange follower that keeps the spring from binding).check the receiver side for "express magnum",they can handle mag loads.#4 buck is a good def load.switch barrels and stock and youre back to a good rabbit or bird gun.
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Old November 25, 2002, 01:23 PM   #38
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I just bought a new Winchester 1300 Defender 8 shot synth stock I thought I would let you know how things went.

Paid $239.99 for the 1300 Defender 18" synth stock 8 shot tru glow sight., from Gart Sports (870 was the same price).

I friend of mine has an 870 in the configuration 18" synth stock I was looking at when trying to decided which gun to buy. So I convinced him to come with me to shoot the two shotguns. I had to bribe him by buying the ammo!!

400 rounds 200 winchester and 200 remington 2 3/4 12gauge target loads 8 and 7 1/2 shot. $14.88 per 100 at Walmart.

and assorted 2 3/4" and 3" slugs and magnum buckshot loads, mostly Winchester loads.

Up front the 1300 has the factory 7 shot mag, 870 has the factory 4 shot. Both are factory stock.
Winchester was brand new from factory cleaned once, the 870 has approximately 500 rounds through it and also had just been cleaned. My friend tells me the 870 was having a couple of problems with the action binding when racked to the rear last time he had shot it. Seems the left action bar is getting caught somewhere (not sure)... Seemed to cycle ok when empty before the range.

My friend intitially said he liked the action on th1300 felt a lot smoother and lighter than his 870. Also he liked that the mag was longer. (He din't like when I told him that if he got the extension for the 870 he would void the warranty)

Loading both guns seemed easy enough.

Shooting. I actually shot 5 rounds of the 870 first 2 3/4 target loads just getting a feel of the action . No problems the 870 was smooth and fast.

Then I shot the 1300 for the first time 8 shots. The 1300 is noticeably smoother and much faster to pump.! The un-locking of the action is pretty impressive. Handed it to my friend without comment and asked what he thought. Again he remarked with a smile that the 1300's action seemed smoother (I had not de-burred the gun yet, just oil) He wanted another 8 shots but I made him give at back!!

We shot 300 target loads without cleaning with zero problems through the 1300. One short stroke by me when I was trying to see just how fast I could get this thing to cycle.

We shot 100 target loads through the 870 and the action did bind again several times on this particular 870. (I have read about this else where on the forums and understand that there is a quick fix.) The slide would not move to the rear at all it seemed the harder it was pulled the more locked it became.That wasn't really a problem except for my buddy who was starting to get pretty ****** off!!! Trust me I understand that this is not indicative of all 870s I wish the 870 had not jammmed at all to make this evaluation a little more realistic. I was more interested in how the action felt and the balance of the gun. BTW the 1300 even with the higher capcity (unloaded) is lighter than the 870.

We then shot:
(5) 2 3/4" 1oz slugs
(5) 3" magnum 1oz slugs
(10) 2 3/4" magnum 12 00 buck
(10) 3" magnum 15 00 buck
(10) 2 3/4" 16 #1 buck
(10) 3" magnum 24 #1 buck
through the 1300.
Still no problems (except for my shoulder!)

It patterns well, although I will need to pattern the gun better as this was not the focus of the shoot. (Got the gun now what ammo to carry.... will my problems never cease???)

We stripped both guns and agreed the 1300 is easier to field strip.

I was very impressed with the 1300 the action did seem considerably smoother and a lot faster, even when the 870 cycled without binding up. (I am biased here so this is opinion)
Zero problems unlike the 870.
8 rounds on the 1300 which would require further expense on the 870 and void the warranty, dimples right?

My buddy didn't go as far as to race out and trade in his 870, but he is thinking about it...

After this small, personal, un-scientific evalation I think I made the right choice in buying the US Repeating Arms 1300.

Then after reading that the shotgun is an FN gun (did they design it, or do they build it, I'm not sure) and is quickly being adopted as a quality police and military shotgun around the world. I like the pedigree makes me feel even more that I made the right choice.

Conclusions:
Weight: both agreed 1300
Controls: split (I prefer the 1300 he the 870)
Speed of action: both agreed 1300
Capacity: both agreed 1300
Reliability: both agred 1300
Cost: same

So FWIW thats how I spent some of my Saturday.

HS/LD
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Old November 25, 2002, 03:58 PM   #39
Dave McC
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Thanks for the T&E. The 1300 is a good gun,shoot it for the next 40 years and get back to me on whether it held up like my 870s....
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Old November 25, 2002, 04:31 PM   #40
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My favorite birth certificate cancellation device...

On the Pro side
There is almost no way to go wrong with your choice in shotgun. They are all good and will serve for their intended purpose.

On the Con side
People are pretty passionate about their shotgun of choice and you can lose sight of the forest for the trees.


Advising a fellow shooter on the advantages of practice seems like advising someone that breathing is a good idea... so self evident that it seems unnecessary to mention it.

You specifically asked about what kind of shotgun to buy. What spins your wheels?

I've had the opportunity to shoot a lot of different shotguns. Winchesters in models 97, 12, 1300. An Ithaca 37. Remington 870's and 11-87's. A Mossburg 500. A mystery Italian made side by side coach gun I used to own. A seriously bucks up over and under 12 gauge that was a real "wish 'em dead" clay pigeon shooter. Most recently, a M1 Super 90 with the works.

They all worked.

Personal Opinion... Buy what turns you on.

We could volley back and forth for days about the merits of single vs. double slide rods, the perils of short stroking vs. ammunition sensitivity, pump vs. auto, etc., etc., etc.

They all work. Buy what turns you on. You'll own a gun you love and enjoy shooting.


Regards
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Old November 26, 2002, 10:09 AM   #41
red_cedar
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How come I never here of you guys mentioning the saiga 12? I would think that that should be considered an option.
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Old November 26, 2002, 12:24 PM   #42
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If you decide to go with the 870, I recommend send it to either Vangcomp or Robar to do the work.
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Old November 26, 2002, 04:46 PM   #43
Dave McC
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You're right, Red. The Saiga deserves a look. But just because the AK series has won a well deserved rep as reliable doesn't mean the shotgun should be unreservedly accepted w/o some test. We hear little from the Saiga shotgun owners out there in Shotgunland. Maybe they're shy, maybe they're not fond of increasing the demand for these, maybe they got took....
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Old November 26, 2002, 05:22 PM   #44
red_cedar
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Dave, very well put,
I am new to shotguns and firearms in general,
I purchased a 19" saiga 12 about a month ago and and have not had the chance to shoot it yet, but will do so this Fri.
I,ve done a lot of research before I bought, and everthing I read pointed to the saiga12 as being versitle, reliable as its brother the AK-series rifles.
ak47.net has posts pretty often on the saiga12.
However with my lack of experience with firearms I wouldnt give much weight as to my opinon,
I guess its just nice to see one of the firearms Ive got spoken of in a forum such as this.
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Old November 26, 2002, 06:01 PM   #45
Dave McC
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Thanks, Red. Please post after shooting to tell us how it went.

A coupla things...

See how recharging the mags go.

Note how heavy the trigger pull is. Except for the Galil, Kalashnikovs have heavy triggers as a rule. Hard to do best work with those.

In theory,the K guns should be reliable, durable, and user friendly. Let us know how it goes.

Thanks...
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Old November 26, 2002, 07:38 PM   #46
glock glockler
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Wow, guys, thanks so much for the advice, I'm getting quite an education here.

I think the first thing I ought to do is shoot as many shotguns as possible and go from there, I've been guilty of buying guns w/o shooting them only to later want to get rid of them. I was at my dealer yesterday and was looking at quite a few shotguns, there really are some nice ones out there.

I am definately partial to autoloaders, being a lazy SOB, and I think I might have found a winner in the Remington 1187. I've heard very good things about it and it does balance very well. If I can only get one with a smaller barrel, about 20 inches or so, I might be in business.
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Old November 26, 2002, 07:46 PM   #47
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I'm not a big shotgun fan as I have no use for one, practical or otherwise, but if you look up the "Mossberg Super-shorty" (I can't remember who makes them, it's some custom job,) they look pretty fun. AFAIK, it only holds 3 shots, but it's like a large pump-action pistol. I think it would certainly have the shorter barrel you're looking for, too. (Though I don't imagine it's that great at long (normal for a shotgun) range.)
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Old November 26, 2002, 09:35 PM   #48
Al in Md.
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Glock Glocker, If you like the 1187 give the 1187 Police model a look. One benefit the gas operated auto loaders have is the built in recoil reduction. However the 1187 P models are less than ideal with reduced recoil and light target loads. Mine is sluggish with both. I believe there is a slight difference in the gas system between the 1187P(designed for full power ammo) and the regular 1187 models. Mine functions very well with full power ammo. They come from the factory with 18+ in. barrels ( a 14 in. model is available) and mag extensions, dark parkerized metal and of course those black (read tactical) synthetic stocks. Check the Remington LE website for the different models. Wilson Combat, among others, may have a pimped out model if that appeals. Al in Md.
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