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Old November 7, 2002, 12:44 PM   #1
Mikul
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Who Can Make a Custom 7.62x25 Pistol

I'm thoroughly enamoured with the 7.62x25 cartridge. Big power, small package, reliable feeding. I like it a lot. The only options for shooting this cartridge are the CZ-52, the Russian and Chinese Tokarevs and the PPsH. I would prefer a modern handgun with at least 10-round capacity to fire this cartridge.

Any suggestions on platform, who would make it and what it might cost?

The 1911 is an obvious choice. The problem I see is the overall length of this cartridge and the magazines. I wouldn't be opposed to an H&K USP fullsize in this cartridge either.

The overall length is 1.381" with a maximum diameter of .392"
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Old November 7, 2002, 03:04 PM   #2
Walt Sherrill
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For personal defense/carry?

I'm not sure I'd go there. Maybe too much oomph for the task. The round might go through the bad guy, the house behind him, and who knows what else...

If you think you still want to go there, why not get someone to modify a Tokarev, and make it a bit more user friendly; custom grips, etc.?

For hunting? Perhaps.
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Old November 7, 2002, 03:12 PM   #3
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I think a good hollowpoint will serve well in this caliber. The low bullet weight (usually 85gr) isn't going to penetrate too far, but only time and testing will tell. If I'm really worried, MagSafe makes fragmenting rounds in this caliber.
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Old November 7, 2002, 04:05 PM   #4
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Neat idea.

I'm pretty sure I've seen talk on doing such a conversion over in "The Ten Ring" at Glock Talk. You might cruise over there and write a search.

Personally, I'm making due with a Polish Tokarev for those times when I feel I want the fast little 7.62 pill with me. But I could see how a Glock 29 might be neat . . .
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Old November 7, 2002, 04:10 PM   #5
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If I remember correctly, some gun manufacturers (Browning, SIG, Ruger, Beretta) have made .30 Luger versions of their 9mm pistols. I would probably start there for a barrel (the two calibers SHOULD be interchangeable) & then rechamber the Luger barrel for 7.62x25 (some minor dimension differences). 9mm magazines should work well for this, too.

Let us know how the project goes....
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Old November 7, 2002, 04:48 PM   #6
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Though not the same, the 357SIG has many of the advantages of the 7.62x25.
They aren't really available in bigger guns, either, but they are available in guns closer to the current trends in concealment (Polymer, etc.), and with some creative reloading, may serve the purpose with a minimum of hardware changes.
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Old November 7, 2002, 05:41 PM   #7
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Somebody over at the old Makarov.com boards had a Hi-Power converted to 7.62x25. He seemed to like it a lot, but since it's been a few years, I can't recall how much it cost him and where it was done.
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Old November 7, 2002, 07:24 PM   #8
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Would it be possible to make an AR upper for that caliber? It's a round that lends itself well to the carbine/SMG concepts, but right now the only one I know of is the PPSh clone made by IO, and it's cost prohibitive. I don't currently have an AR but I would definitely get a 7.62x25 upper if they were available.

I get about 1600fps out of a CZ-52. With a little longer barrel I bet it would really scream.
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Old November 7, 2002, 11:14 PM   #9
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7.62X25MM is dimentionaly VERY simular to 9MM.

All you need is a normal weight 9MM gun and a 7.62X25MM barrel and a heavier recoil spring set.

There are Norinco Tokarov 9MM and 7.62X25MM pistols, only difference between the two is the barrel.

The Norinco Tokarovs are all steel by the way.
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Old November 8, 2002, 12:32 AM   #10
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Right, but the dedicated 9x19 Tok (the Chicom 213) has a somewhat narrower butt than the regular Type 53s.

Remember, the 9mm shell is about 25% shorter (19 mm vs. 25 mm) than the Tok round's shell. Max 9x19 OAL is listed as 1.169"; the Tok is 1.381". This is why I suggested the 10 mm . . . max OAL is 1.26", but you may be able to squeeze the cartridge into the butt of a 29. Don't know what you'd do for mags, though.

Even a .38 Super is only max OAL 1.28" . . . might rule out the 1911.

Well, this was all very fun in an academic way, but I'm increasingly happy with my Polish Tokarev for launching 7.62x25 rounds!
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Old November 8, 2002, 12:52 AM   #11
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Not that this answers your question, but I have a 9mm Luger barrel for my CZ52. It uses the same mags and works fine.
I agree with the idea of just having a CZ52 gone over by a good smith that will possibly modify the thing to make it a little more practical.
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Old November 8, 2002, 09:51 AM   #12
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What about the Polish TT-33's that are being sold on southernohiogun.gun? They're going for about $150.
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Old November 8, 2002, 10:23 AM   #13
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I have a Government Model Colt barrel that came out of China. It was reamed and lined to .30 caliber and then apparently chambered in 7.62 x 25. Never had it in a gun so I have no idea how it worked (or if it did). I would expect magazine problems but maybe they found a way…..
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Old November 8, 2002, 11:31 AM   #14
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To me, a "custom" handgun is not nessessarily something built from the ground up. For example a 1911 race gun is just a factory handgun that has been extensively modified. I certainly consider a race gun to be a custom handgun.
So, I don't see the problem with taking something like a CZ52 and working on it, just like you would do with any other handgun (assuming of course you are willing to spend the money). The standard mods that are normally performed to a 1911 would be a good place to start. Better sights, trigger job, action job. I am sure that something could be done to improve the accuracy if you wern't satisfied with that. Although I doubt you could find a match quality barrel for it. For cosmetics/ergonomics you could have a custom finish, stippling, checkering etc. done. The hardest part (other than parting with the money) would be to find a gunsmith that would be willing to take on the project and be serious about it.
In fact, if you find someone willing to take on the project, I might very well be interested in sending them one of my CZ52s. I would be willing to drop a few hundred on the project, but I wouldn't be interested in spending thousands on it simply because the CZ52 just doesn't interest me enough to expend the resources.
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Old November 8, 2002, 03:39 PM   #15
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Hi,
The biggest problem is that of Overall cartridge length. The difficulty is not in the conversion to fire or chamber the cartridge in any pistol that was designed to fire a 9mm round. Its in converting a 9mm magazine to accomodate a 7.62x 25 Tokarev cartridge.

The only workable solution would be to modify the cartridges by putting in a bullet with real short Ogive (1/2 E Ogive maybe?) so that the overall length of the cartridge is now the sam as that of the 9mm.

Here again you would have to work with increasing the powdercharge in the case since putting in a shorter (Lighter) bullet may now decrease pressures to affect reliability.

A close enough solution is to just get an aftermarket .30 luger barrel for the pistol and use those. Ballistically the .30 lugers are about the same pressure but may not be as fast as the 7.62x25mm.

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Old November 8, 2002, 04:43 PM   #16
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There's a 7.62x25 1911 for sale in Austin

Down at Just Guns, Austin TX, they have a 7.62x25 1911 for sale.

The shopkeep said it's a trophy brought back from Vietnam, and is being sold as a collector's item, he said he does not believe it should be fired, as it was cobbled together by some ambitious soul.

Very interesting piece, if the story is to be believed.

On a side note: will the OAL of the Tok round fit into the cylinder of Ruger Blackhawk? Maybe you can get a extra cylinder made for a .30 Carbine Blackhawk.

Do give us a full report should you ever go through with your plan.
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Old November 8, 2002, 05:19 PM   #17
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Now there is an idea. I was locked into the idea of an automatic. Absolutely the 7.62x25mm cartridge will fit in the cylinder of a .30 Carbine Blackhawk. I held up two cases side by side and the .30 Carbine case (with no bullet) was only slightly shorter than a 7.62x25 loaded cartridge. Bore size is Ok also. I am not sure what this would give you. It would certainly outperform the .30 Carbine. Of course you could simply buy the same gun in .357 and get more performance than either one. Halo says he gets 1600 fps out of a CZ52, with a .357 you can get 1900 fps out of a 110 grain bullet. But I guess that isn't the point. If you had a facination with the 7.62x25, I believe the Ruger Blackhawk would be a workable solution. Why would be another question altogether.
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Old November 8, 2002, 06:38 PM   #18
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I like the idea of a 7.62X25MM in a modern auto.
Like a Springfield XD. That would be sweet. But would be even better would be this round chambered in a longslide Glock or 1911. The extra length would give an even greater boost in performance for this angry little round.
I'd love to see the chrony results from one of these converted with the .223Timbs round.
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Old November 8, 2002, 07:36 PM   #19
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Ok, how about a custom built up on an AMT .30 Carbine pistol ?

What did they call them, the Javelina or something like that ?
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Old November 8, 2002, 10:47 PM   #20
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I have loaded the 7.62x25 cartrage with a 90g XTP HP and the expansion is impressive out of my CZ52. it goes from .308 to .712 almost every time, it will not go through a gallon milk jug of sand, will be within 1" of the other side. I don't know how damp sand compairs to flesh so no idea as to the penetration in a real life situation.
The real impressive thing is the expansion and the chrno. is 1500+ fps.
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Old November 9, 2002, 01:42 AM   #21
Daniel Watters
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Chinese 7.62x25mm M1911 Conversions

Old Fluff mentioned the Chinese 7.62x25mm barrel for the M1911. I vaguely remember seeing a photo of a complete conversion many years ago. They had somehow reworked the frame to accept Tokarev mags. One wonders how thin the front strap and the rear of the mag well became as a result.

(Of course, the Chinese converted just about every surplus weapon within reach to either the 7.62x25mm or the 7.62x39mm. I've seen photos of 7.62x25mm-converted Stens and Thompsons, along with Brens and WW2 Japenese LMGs converted to accept the 7.62x39mm. The Bren conversion even appeared to use standard AK47 mags.)

As for modern conversions to 7.62x25mm, I concur that a rebarreled G20 or G29 would probably work with metal magazines. The kicker would be to have these mags fabricated. For a proof of concept, you could probably shim the sides of a single-stack TT33 or CZ52 mag to fit and lock in the existing mag catch.

FWIW: The Yugoslav M57 has a slightly longer frame and magazine than the standard Tokarev. As a result, it can accept one extra round.
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Old November 9, 2002, 09:28 AM   #22
George Hill
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"7.62x25mm-converted Stens"


Okay, that's about the coolest idea I've heard of all day...
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Old November 9, 2002, 10:41 AM   #23
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Why ?
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Old November 9, 2002, 03:38 PM   #24
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this looks like an interesting project, actually.


I'd like to see a marlin camp carbine rebarrelled to 7.62X25, just because.
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Old November 9, 2002, 04:45 PM   #25
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I believe my wife's uncle successfully converted a 1911 to fire the 7.62x25 cartridge. I seem to remember him saying that he ordered a .38 Super barrel and received a 7.62x25 barrel by mistake, but he kept the barrel and the rest is history. I'll ask him whether any other modifications were necessary and report back.

He and my father-in-law took the gun shooting a couple of weeks ago, and the report was that it performed beautifully. They chronographed it at 1700+ fps (don't know what ammo they used, but I'll find out). Muzzle blast and recoil were reported to be quite intense.

I don't think I'd dare carry a pistol converted to this caliber (or any "converted" pistol, for that matter) for fear of the ensuing legal mess.
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