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Old March 23, 2016, 08:59 AM   #1
Pistola Pedro
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2 Questions

1. If you were going to go for a Minor Open/limited gun, is there a reason to pay more for the 2011 than a CZ/Tanfoglio? It seems to make more sense to use the gun designed for the 9mm round and also save some money. Maybe I'm wrong here though.

2. What is your stance on what to do if you fall during a course of fire? How should you handle the gun while falling? I'm still not sure what the safest way to handle this is. It's never happened, but I think it's an interesting problem and it might be a place where the grip safety really comes into its own.
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Old March 23, 2016, 12:47 PM   #2
g.willikers
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2011 vs Tanfoglio = BMW vs Nissan.
If you can afford it, why not?
Do you need it?
Probably depends on how much you are going to shoot it and how well.
Only you can answer.

Why are you thinking about falling down with a gun in hand?
A physical problem?
I don't recall ever seeing anyone do that at an action type event, even in really bad weather.
Did see some folks slippin' and sliding and land on their butt.
But they got good hits on their way down.
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Old March 23, 2016, 12:58 PM   #3
Pistola Pedro
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Actually saw a guy fall back on his butt and finish his shot immediately upon landing. He wasn't dq'd, but in my opinion he should have been because he could have blasted his own toes off. The shot was maybe an inch over the top. I've also seen others fall at indoor ranges by slipping on brass.
Is it not okay to think about it?
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Old March 23, 2016, 02:41 PM   #4
9x45
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Why would you shoot Open/Limited Minor to start with? Your'e going to hammered by guys shooting Major, C=4, D=2, versus Minor C=3, D=1. Shooting 2 D's in Minor is almost as bad as one mike. Shoot Production instead.

Falling/slipping/tripping in itself is not a DQ offense, regardless of the gun type, single action, Glock, DA/SA, revolver, etc. Dropping a load gun is, and the shooter must not retrieve the gun, only the RO. As long as the falling shooter did not put a round within 2 meters of himself, break the 180 rule, or throw one over the berm, he is good. Without seeing it, it sounds like he broke the 2 meter rule. Whenever an RO DQ's a shooter, they have to cite the rule. If he fell outside the shooting area, and fired rounds, it would be procedural. It happens, and you could to choose to stop, have the RO unload and clear you, which will be scored as shot at 180 seconds, or continue and finish. I have slipped twice in the last 10 years, and continued the stage with a suck time. We shoot on sand over hard pan, so it can be slippery. Now the RO "could" judge you to be unsafe after the fall. We had an older shooter fall backwards and hit his head. He maintained control of the weapon but clearly was in no shape to continue at that point.
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Last edited by 9x45; March 23, 2016 at 04:44 PM.
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Old March 23, 2016, 02:59 PM   #5
g.willikers
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There's actually a self defense technique involving throwing your legs out in front and landing kind of flat on your back, hoping the bullets heading your way go over head.
Probably best practiced with airsoft or Nurf guns.
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Old March 23, 2016, 03:18 PM   #6
Pistola Pedro
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Fair question 9x45! I want a minor gun because I'm a cheapskate. I don't want to pay extra for .40/.45 and I honestly don't need to worry about scoring minor currently. I also believe that the minor/major scoring system is soon to bite the dust. That's not just my opinion. Max Michel is one of many top level shooters who has acknowledged the silliness and predicts a change in the near future. At that point, the major guns are going to be abandoned in a hurry and the .40 will lose its last major foothold (the LE community is already starting to jump ship and the FBI has pretty much made sure that 9mm is back in its place as king of the pistol rounds)
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Old March 23, 2016, 03:18 PM   #7
Jim Watson
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I have fallen on the range twice.
Once while "walking the plank" on a 2x12 on tires to give an intentionally unsteady path. I fell off, kept the gun downrange and unfired, got up and continued on my way.
Once as RO while chasing a shooter on a field course across rough gravel.
Unfortunately the fall cleared the timer and we had to give her a reshoot. I was resting and let somebody else handle it.

As to the first question, I see a good number of people shooting Limited Minor.
I was told that a lot of them were using their three gun pistol which is normally a large capacity 9mm.

Mr Michel has made a number of interesting suggestions. What will they do besides improve his scores and increase his business income?

I think that if USPSA abandons power factoring, they had just as well go ahead and shoot .22s in the footsteps of ISU/ISSF.
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Old March 23, 2016, 03:48 PM   #8
Pistola Pedro
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I'm not suggesting that they abandon the power factor scoring, but I am suggesting the major/minor is a bit of a joke. A 9mm hitting someone in the D zone isn't going to be a kill. Neither is a .40 in the D zone. To try and continue and prop up the idea that the .40 is SO superior to the 9mm is really ridiculous at this point. I also think that loading rounds to be puff loads is a little silly as well. If it doesn't cycle as "hard" as a WWB load, then it shouldn't even make "minor" scoring.
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Old March 23, 2016, 04:50 PM   #9
9x45
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I think the power floor issue is artificially low for minor anyway. It should be 140, and Major should go back up to 180..... USPSA doesn't care what caliber LEO run, and it changes all the time anyway based on a new Captain in charge of use of force. My agency started with G22s, then issued G21s, then G17s, now back to G21s, all politics. You can't compare the scoring zones on a target to real life shootings anyway, these aren't all alphas but I wouldn't want to face this guy......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH1HioAHPW4
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Old March 23, 2016, 05:14 PM   #10
Pistola Pedro
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I agree that going back to 180 would be better than nothing, but if 9mm is good enough for NATO and the FBI to fight evil, I don't understand (actually I do) why it's penalized in paper punching. Not a big deal either way. I will be going minor
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