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Old September 24, 2002, 05:52 PM   #26
Larry Ashcraft
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Let's not forget that we are not infallible, the 2 worst KB's I've seen were loaded by "experienced" reloaders.

The first one loaded some 44 mags with 22 grains of Unique. When asked why he said "I don't know, it seemed right at the time". Split the cylinder on his SBH and blew off the top strap.

The second one was more serious, a gunsmith friend of mine has the "remains" of the rifle, a sporterized 1903 25-06. The guy waited until 11:00 pm the night before antelope season opening to run downstairs and load up some rounds. Grabbed the wrong powder (one of the IMR numbered ones, I forget which). The next morning when he fired his first round, he saw a huge ball of fire as it knocked him down. Blew the barrel about 100' in front of him, blew off the scope, splintered the stock and he almost ate the bolt. 2 lugs were sheared off and the 3rd was cracked. He was left with only minor injuries, luckily. The gunsmith figured he must have had the pressure up around 300,000 psi.

Knowledge and experience are no good without "careful" thrown in. Never get complacent.
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Old September 24, 2002, 07:24 PM   #27
James K
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I had a similar experience stopping a guy outside a gun shop and telling him the the load the clerk recommended was a "bomb" looking for a place to happen. He sneered at me and asked who should know more, me or the expert in the store. He then called me an idiot and a few other choice names and threatened to call the police if I "harassed" him any more. I should be more charitable, but I have a sneaking hope that he blew his fool head off.

Jim
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Old September 25, 2002, 06:28 PM   #28
Southla1
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You know Jim I can understand someone in a department store like Wally Mart or some store like that pulling a bone headed stunt like you and boige described, but in all of the gun stores around here (maybe bacause they are fairly small............)the "clerks" are uaually the owner or the gunsmith. It would seem to me that a gun shop owner would kind of "lay down the law" to anyone that they hired as a clerk regarding giving advice when they don't know "squat" about what they are talking about.

In other words brief them to call a knowledgeble person or keep their damn mouth shut! That should apply to any store really.

In one of the gunshops that I frequent in Lafayette, La the owner/manager SHOWS me the loading data printed on a can of powder (Hodgdon has an abbreviated chart printed on its containers) and then tells me to be sure to check the loading manual. He even asks what Caliber am loading then says "yup that's agood powder for it".

In another shop in New Iberia, La the manager and I discuss loads and methods (and where the fish are biting ) any time I make a purchase.

I KNOW they have idiots like you and bogie ran into, but luckily I have never run into one.................hope I never do............not that I know it all but I can hold my own so I guess I would end up telling him off LOL
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Old September 26, 2002, 06:30 AM   #29
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Wes,
If you friend wants any help feeding what's left of the M1 piece by piece to the idiot behind the counter let me know.
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Old September 26, 2002, 06:40 AM   #30
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Yipes!

That's about the worst Kaboom I've ever seen, your friend was very lucky....

Unfortunately, he's also an idiot...I'd be avoinging him in the future (Sorry, but the only thing that would pi$$ me off more than blowing myself up, would be someone ELSE blowing me up)...

Also, if I was him, my next handloads would be geared towards taking out the guy from the gunstore
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Old September 26, 2002, 06:44 AM   #31
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Gonna hafta shoot .22 rimfire for years to get over that flinch he has now.

LMAO!
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Old September 26, 2002, 06:51 AM   #32
Westicle
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Quote:
Yipes!
That's about the worst Kaboom I've ever seen, your friend was very lucky....

Unfortunately, he's also an idiot...I'd be avoinging him in the future (Sorry, but the only thing that would pi$$ me off more than blowing myself up, would be someone ELSE blowing me up)...
My friend is neither an idiot or a buffon, and frankly I take offence at any post that says he is..... what he is , is inexperienced with reloading and took the worng advice. I am so glad that everyone here has never taken a word of someone and treated it as gosphel.

yes he made a mistake, but those that call him an idiot obviously don't remember to well of thier own mistakes.
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Old September 26, 2002, 07:33 AM   #33
Fred S
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Westicle:

You are right, nobody should be calling anyone an idiot. All of us reloaders should be saying: "By the grace of God go I!"

I once made serious reloading error but the good lord gave me the sense to check what I was doing and I caught it way before the round went in the gun. I bet it would have killed me if I fired it. Scared me cold and made me a more cautious reloader.

I bet your friend either becomes an expert at reloading or never does it again.

Wish him the best for me and I'm glad he wasn't harmed. The gun, although a valuable collectors item, can always be replaced.
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Old September 26, 2002, 07:45 AM   #34
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There was a pic of an M1A blown up jes like the M1 a while back on this site.

Must've been the same clerk giving load data. Although they had an expert evaluate the gun as to "mechanical" failure, my guess was the ol' compressed Bullseye load.

IIRC, WW 296 is just about as quick as Bullseye (which in my mind nearly detonates) 3.5 grains will launch a 230 gr projo from a 45 Auto at around 700 fps so you can imagine 52 grains behind a 180 gr 30 cal. Prolly about a quarter million PSI or so judging by my seat of the pants computer...
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Old September 26, 2002, 10:19 AM   #35
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BigG, if you're thinking about this kaboomed M1A...

It was found to have a no-name, substandard barrel, of dubious metallurgy, and the ammo was not at fault.



Or was there a different kaboomed M1A of late?




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Old September 26, 2002, 10:24 AM   #36
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yikes, I had a chance to inspect my buddies garand and where the reciever goes over the barrel was cracked andgaping about 1/2"..... so he was close to having the barrel go fluing off the reciever.

pretty scary all in all.
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Old September 26, 2002, 11:17 AM   #37
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No, Gewehr, I recognize it by the "tackytical" scope (and paintjob).

If that M1A was not also using faulty ammo in addition to substandard bbl. it is undoubtedly the worst POS firearm ever made, or nearly so.

You can't split a barrel like that and blow the receiver apart without a bbl obstruction and serious overload conditions. Or what was the bbl made of silly putty?
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Old September 26, 2002, 11:23 AM   #38
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"I am so glad that everyone here has never taken a word of someone and treated it as gosphel."

Guess I am a cynical old b*****d but I never did or no doubt never will, and I am not talking just about reloading either.

Guys I ain't no better or no worse than anyone on here but I have NEVER used a load given to me by someone else without FIRST checking it in 2 or 3 or 4 different manuals. When I started in 1963 I was given a load by a friend and did NOT use it until I checked it with another friend that had a manual that listed that particular powder.................the manual I did own at that time did not list the type powder that was recommended. It turned out the load given to me was a SAFE load and I use it to this day.

Sorry but I cannot understand anyone especially a NEWBIE listining to a CLERK of all people.

Live and Learn I guess
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Old September 26, 2002, 11:33 AM   #39
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Silly putty barrel...

Yup, that's basically what the metallurgist boiled it down to. There were no barrel obstructions or overpressure rounds, although many speculated it as the root cause. Turns out there was no maker's mark on the barrel, tons of microcracks in the chamber and throat, poor grain structure and heat treat. That barrel was an accident waiting to happen, regardless of what was fired through it, save for maybe blanks. Here's a photomicrograph of the chamber wall:



I first thought bad ammo, too. But since I had 10 years of forensics experience under my belt for the Air Force, this final report made darned good sense:

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762r.html

It doesn't absolve the handloader of the responsibility of checking, and double-checking their load data prior to assembling the ammo, but it does prove there are other factors.
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Old September 26, 2002, 12:27 PM   #40
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Westicle,

I do not feel your friend was a fool or an idiot. We was misled by someone who thought he was an authority. Sorry some have decided to go that way.

I was taught reloading by an old timer who had about 50 years of press time under his belt. Everytime I asked about a load, he would turn around a pull down a manual. This use to make me think the old guy's memory was going until one day I went into a very repected gunshop in town. I asked the clerk, who was also the owner, what load he recommended for a particular rifle/bullet combination. To my surprise, he turned around and pulled out a manual from behind the counter.

The best words of advice I learned about reloading have been:

"Remember nothing, except where to look it up".

Those pictures made me want to go hug my Garand and M1A.
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Old September 26, 2002, 01:55 PM   #41
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Heh.

How to pick a load for the 6PPC using 68 grain match bullets:

Get a can of V133. See how much you can fit into the case. You might need a longer drop tube.

How to load for a .308 bolt rifle using 180 grain noslers:

Get a can of IMR 4350. See how much you can fit into the case. You might need a longer drop tube.

How to load for a .357 using 125 grain JHPs:

Get a can of W296. See how much you can fit into the case...

I _really_ like powders where one has to really work at it to get in trouble. Most of the pistol powders make me nervous, because it is hard to differentiate between a single charge and a double charge with it down at the bottom of the case.
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Old September 26, 2002, 01:56 PM   #42
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Gewehr, you may be right. I just cannot figure out how the receiver ring and everything else got blown apart if the round was not overpressure. I could see the bbl SPLITTING if it was such a POS, but the receiver ring should have stopped the chamber from coming apart. The cartridge appears to have DETONATED in the chamber like TNT or other high explosive. Some of the action should have held together if the bbl alone was at fault. But, that rifle is demolished.

I am not an expert but I am amazed!!! Like pop always said, you learn something new every day.
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o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain

o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey

o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC
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Old September 26, 2002, 05:37 PM   #43
Larry Ashcraft
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Bogie,

My gunsmith says the same thing about 30.06 and 4831. Fill the case up to the top, scrape off level and *crunch* the bullet in on top.

(I haven't tried it.)
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Old September 26, 2002, 06:50 PM   #44
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"My gunsmith says the same thing about 30.06 and 4831. Fill the case up to the top, scrape off level and *crunch* the bullet in on top."

Thats true up to about a 168 grain bullet. The load for H-4831 and a 168 is listed (in some manuals) as 61 grains.........That is just about to the mouth of the case. Go to 200 or 220 and you may want to bakc off just a tad.
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Old September 27, 2002, 11:28 AM   #45
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Glad your friend was not seriously injured.
That is about the worst KB I have ever seen and its a good thing no bystanders were injuried in the blow.

Given the info you present, I think this says something good about that M1-D. Possibly with another type of rifle we would be talking fatality.

Frighting, sobering stuff.

S-
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Old September 27, 2002, 02:38 PM   #46
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Selfdefenz, According to Julian S. Hatcher, US Army Head of Ordnance, the contrary is actually the case. Usually only minor injury is incurred by shooters when a gun lets go at the seams. And Hatcher saw more accidents than most. Per Hatcher's Notebook, IIRC. Exactly 180 out from what one would expect, eh?

Hatcher is the guy who IDed the Springfield 1903s with glass hard receivers, if you remember.
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o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain

o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey

o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC
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Old September 27, 2002, 03:27 PM   #47
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Is 4831 compatible with an M-1 Garand gas system? Is that H- or IMR-4831? They look a bit too slow to me. Has anyone actually tried this load in an M-1 Garand?

Loading 30-06 for a Remington 700 or Win 70 is one thing, an M-1 Garand needs a specific pressure curve to function correctly and not damage the gas system. It's probably best to stick with military equivalent loads. JMO, YMMV.
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Old September 27, 2002, 05:37 PM   #48
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IMR or Hodgdon 4831 is way too slow for the Garand. The best powder to use is the military standard--IMR 4895. For a complete listing of acceptable propellants, get "The M1 Rifle", published by the NRA. Mine cost $2.00 when I got it. It is an invaluable reference--has a complete table of acceptable loads for the arm.
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Old September 27, 2002, 06:55 PM   #49
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Powderman,
Thanks for confirming my gut feeling.
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Old September 27, 2002, 08:26 PM   #50
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"Thanks for confirming my gut feeling"

A good feeling riverdog, 4350 or 4831 is fine with a heavy bullet in a bolt or pump ought six but NOT in The M-1 or any other long stroke gas operated rifle. The maximum chamber pressure is no higher than any other load but the pressure lasts longer and is still much higher than 4895 at the gas port. The violent shock of this higher pressure hitting the gas piston bends op rods.
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