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Old September 3, 2002, 02:06 AM   #1
Jim March
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A completely psychotic load concept, sure to leave the coroner deeply puzzled <GRIN!>

Guys, I've got this idea running through my head, and I want to know if it's remotely possible.

The Steps:

1) Take a 32ACP shell, and polish the rim down so that it's the same diameter as the main body of the shell or a hair smaller.

2) Fill the primer pocket with a fast-burning powder, and put a piece of masking tape over it.

3) Fill the shell's other end with as much slow-burn powder as it'll hold.

4) Put a good 60grain JHP in it, and crimp it in there. HEAVY crimp.

5) Weigh the whole mess. We're prolly talking 70 grains or so?

6) Load it backwards into a .357Magnum shell, ahead of a healthy charge .

Get it yet? Somewhere around halfway down the barrel, the .357 charge will burn through the masking tape, setting off the primer pocket powder, which in turn sets off what's in the 32 shell - which uses the 32cal primer pocket as a rocket nozzle! It clears the 357's muzzle at maybe 1,500fps - and it's still accellerating for the next, I dunno, 10 feet?

A peak velocity somewhere up past 2,000fps seems possible ?

The weird part happens when the coroner opens some goblin up and finds the bullet, still in it's shell.

Variations: there are 85grain and 100grain .32 projectiles usually used in .32H&RMagnums that could be shoved into the 32ACP shells for this application.

If the 32ACP shell is a bit too narrow, a coat of paint of some sort should give it an optimal bore.

Waddya think? Yes, I know about the Gyrojet, but it didn't have an "initial boost" from a conventional charge. So it wasn't going very fast on clearing the muzzle, hence the velocity sucked.

This might work better with a .357Maximum, to get enough overall length...

Comments? (No, I don't reload yet .)
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Old September 3, 2002, 02:47 AM   #2
labgrade
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Trying as hard as I can here, Jim, but I don't get it. Sure may be me & not fully tracking on your concept, but:

loading it backwards = I don't see how the initial powder charge is gonna ignite anything. The bullet will be in contact with your booster charge/your masking tape is on the wrong side of things to do that .....

A .32 going out of a .357 has just to (must) start going in a way tumbler act & ignition (if it could happen at all) would be at a so totally random axis as to preclude anything accurate - seems silly & well, goofier the more I consider it at all.

Like I said at my reply, I just don't get it. Maybe in the morning, after a cup of coffee & a coupla replies, I'll slap my head & do the Homer Simpson exhortation.

I figured a "best bet" coroner puzzler would be a suppressed .45+ sub-sonic gell-cap of mercury = maybe better galium (since it's a solid at initial velocity, but a liquid at body temperature).

For a gee-whiz process, a .45 cal sabot with a 9mm/.38 cal bullet leaves nothing but the plastic sleeve - & even that's eveidence. (BTW, use a revolver or closed-breech - brass is evidence - no semis ejecting forensics)

Far as your premise, I'm cornfusticated .....
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Old September 3, 2002, 03:16 AM   #3
Jim March
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Ah, no, you stick the 32ACP shell into the 357 case primer end first, so that the 32 bullet is pointed "downrange". The 32 "backs in" to the 357. That way, the 357 powder charge burns through the masking tape over the 32 shell primer pocket, which starts the "rocket" portion of the ignition sequence.
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Old September 3, 2002, 03:27 AM   #4
labgrade
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OK.

Thought it might be me ....

Still, you have a .32 in a .35 bore = zip for stability & even worse once clearing the barrel upon ignition (as you put it) - as I understand it.

An ignitable/"fragible" paper-patch might give you something though.

I have given this some thought before, Jim.

Again, I just may not be tracking your thought process enough to drift genious ....

One thing external ballistic is that you really do have to have a stable "thing internal" that exits the same way external. Physix in & out. Simple (= less things) is (usually) better.

Outa here this evening .... I'm sleepy now ...
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Old September 3, 2002, 04:46 AM   #5
Jim March
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No, it's NOT a ".32 bore projectile in a .357 barrel".

You're missing something .

Try shoving an empty 32ACP *shell* nose-first into either a 9mm Para, .380ACP, 38Spl or .357 empty shell. It's pretty much a perfect fit. I happened to notice this at the range one time, idly playing with shells while a buddy shot. The .32ACP is a "semi-rimmed" cartridge, so you'd have to polish the rim down so it's the same bore as the basic shell (or a little smaller) but that's no problem.

See, the .32 projectile might be .32 (actually .312 I think) but that's NOT the projectile bore we're dealing with here. The bore of the .32ACP *shell* is - and that's very close to .356. Prolly something like .349 or so. Still undersized, but nothing a coat or two of hard enamel paint can't fix .

OR instead of paint, just a single layer of masking tape around the .32ACP shell before cramming it into the .357 shell would do the trick.
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Old September 3, 2002, 05:21 AM   #6
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Should work fine unless the masking tape burns through while the whole mess is still in the case. HEE HEE

Jim Taylor did some test with paper attached to the rear of bullets and could never get the paper to burn so I'm not sure what the results would be with tape.
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Old September 3, 2002, 05:52 AM   #7
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Hmm.

Well the idea here is to use the "first stage" 357 ignition to light off the "rocket". Maybe the way to do that is with a fuse! Instead of filling the 32 primer pocket with Unique or something, pour grains of powder onto some...I dunno, toilet paper, twist it up, and run it through the 32 shell's primer pocket hole into the 32 shell main charge. Or...hmmm...powder can be formed into a solid, by mixing well with a combustable liquid and allowing it to dry? Fill the 32 primer pocket with that, with the "powder paste" run right through the 32's primer pocket hole before it dries. That should form a predictable "fuse" that would burn away just as it lights the rocket. Different burn speed powders used in such a paste would let you control the "fuse speed" to some degree. For best results, you want the rocket to kick in just after it clears muzzle. Too early and you get a pressure spike from hell . Methinks we oughta test this in a Blackhawk, or one of Weshoot2's Redhawk .357s .

We'd have to experiment with the proper size of the hole in the 32 shell's primer pocket, for maximum thrust.

Another thing: is the .32ACP shell *tapered*!? That would complicate things a bit. The rear end of the shell might be very close to .356/.357, and only the front end of the .32 shell would need "support" of any kind. If you didn't support the front with a ring of...something, tape maybe, the danger would be that the rocket round would come out of the muzzle slightly yawed, and when the rocket thrust kicked in, God only knows where it'd go.

You know, I'll bet we could scale this whole concept up to where we use a .45ACP "second stage rocket" in a .475Linebaugh or .480Ruger "first stage". Jeez, that'd be completely off-scale nutso .
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Old September 3, 2002, 08:24 AM   #8
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Three problems, Jim. (Among many, many, I'm sure.)

The bullet-in-case will have a very nose heavy configuration and will flip over almost immediately. If the rocket idea works, which I strongly doubt, then it will have the opposite effect sought.

The slowest smokeless powder is orders of magnitude faster than solid rocket propellent when confined. Substitute a simple rocket prop. like zinc and sulfur and maybe...

The acceleration of the .357 charge (variously measured at over 1200 g's) will immediately cause the nose heavy bullet to go deep no matter what kind of crimp you have. If the igniter works as planned and the powder actually starts burning ... Well, you know enough about what happens with packed smokeless powder.
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Old September 3, 2002, 08:47 AM   #9
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Ah. Right...we need solid rocket fuel in the .32 .

Right, that seems...possible .

<scratches head>

I hear what you're saying re: nose heavy, although the spin you'll get on the rifling might help? Otherwise, use a .357Maximum as the "launch caliber", use a 32H&RMagnum as the basis for the flight platform. Pour 65 grains of liquid lead into the shell, drill through that lead up from the primer hole, shorten the case a bit, put rocket fuel in, then cap it with a 60grain JHP. Now you've got something with lead at EACH end, fuel in the middle...the fuel packed in so tight the forward lead (JHP) can't compress under the initial G-forces as the 357 launches it. Granted, your powder capacity on the 357Maximum is a bit limited, but we're only dealing with a 170 - 180grain projectile here...we can get that moving at least around 1,200fps before the rocket kicks in?

Waitasec, let's back up here. The Gyrojet rounds "basically worked". They got peak velocities pretty much on par with handgun ammo, and that was using rockets from a dead stop. I've seen Gyrojet rounds at a gun show, they had a row of nozzles around the rear edge of the round. Most of the weight seemed to be rearward with the fuel forward or in the middle somewhere, so that makes sense.

So they basically solved the problem, except that since it wasn't going very fast on clearing the muzzle, accuracy sucked. But what if the same sort of round had been kicked off with an initial .357 or whatever blast? Boost it past 1,000fps at the muzzle, then get 2,000+ at 20 feet?

OK, fine. How small of a model rocket engine can you get, anyhow? Small enough that you can shove it in the end of a .45-70 case and launch it with a Magnum Research BFR? With a copper penetrator nosecone of course . Maybe shorten the shell so you've got a projectile maybe an inch and a half long. Or start with a .444Marlin version, that's a straight-wall case instead of a taper I think?
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Old September 3, 2002, 08:52 AM   #10
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I say load the round as you orginally intended and send it to Vermont for testing.
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Old September 3, 2002, 08:55 AM   #11
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Even if the rocket boost idea won't work, the somewhat simpler notion of a bullet still attached to its case would be bizarre enough for a forensic pathologist to puzzle over.
could the rear of the case be counterweighted with lead to help balance? any space between the bullet and the rear could be filled with zinc or some other light metal too I suppose

Without a "booster" charge would the BATF classify this as AP?



or is that only when using steel or other hard metals?
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Old September 3, 2002, 09:36 AM   #12
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Jim, I know you're kinda half joking about this, but as a technical note the "rocket" you've designed will have a very low specific impulse. You're thinking it will increase the vel by 1000 fps. You'd be lucky to get an additional 5 fps out of such a small amount of fuel with an untuned nozzle and a relatively large payload to fuel ratio.
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Old September 3, 2002, 12:05 PM   #13
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YEAH, THE CORONER IS GOING TO BE REALLY CONFUSED.........
ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU !!!!!

Most likely scenario is that due to the progressive burning nature of the powders is that you will get a lack of seal around the case (32acp) and will get a squib that throws the whole package at your feet (well 30-50 feet maybe). Or, if you do get obturation, the progressive nature of the powder burning will fire off the foward charge (due to heat and pressure) and will cause the pressure to spike, causing the .357 to fragment (as in hand-grenade). If you did get the foward charge to fire as you plan, it would just fire the case backwards at you. If you weren't lucky as I was, the coroner would find you with a .32 acp case lodged in your skull !!!!!!!

Three years ago I was shooting a PPC match. Next to me (3 feet) on either side were shooters also firing the first stage at 7yds. During the course of the string, I noticed a loud round go off close by , and felt a "whoose" between my arms and in front of my face. Later, when I went to reload my speed loader, I noticed a wadcutter bullet lying in one of the holes on the block and the surronding rounds scattered around the loading block tray. A little further examination revealed evidence that one of the rounds had sympathetically fired due to the concussion of the gun fire on the firing on the line. Who knows where the case went !!!! only that it missed me!

Also had an aquaintance at a match had a round in his loading block go off when he threw his spent cases on it while reloading during a string of fire. (He dosen't do that any more!). He was hit by the flying case. There was a cut and a tear in his pants and a flesh cut. It hit him in the leg about mid thigh. The case never was found. We teased him about "missing" the family jewels and should not have- that way he could not have reproduced more "idiots" (my apologies Bruce R.).
The point is that the case has much less mass than the bullet, and the neck tension of the bullet much less than the internal pressure in the case, hence it is the case that goes flying, and if it occurs outside the barrel, the case goes opposite the direction the bullet goes and at a much higher velocity.
Several years ago, their was an outfit selling "exploding" rounds. It was one of these in a CCI MiniMag HP that John Hinkley shot President Reagan. The round failed to explode, but the HP still expanded accoring to the forensics report. These rounds were noted for frequently exploding, and if they did, the kinetic energy was so much less than that of the normal impact energy of the bullet that it was insignificant.

Interesting concept you had, but just not feasable !!!!
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Old September 3, 2002, 02:12 PM   #14
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I doubt that the tape would burn through. Paper wads seldom burn through, due the to swift nature of the reaction. Also, the case would not be in a chamber with smooth walls with a locked breech, but in a barrel with lands and grooves and the pressure of the initial reaction forming a "breech" of hot gas. Assuming that the case even ignited, it would likely burst in the barrel, subsequently leaking any gas created by the second firing, past the .32 bullet and out the barrel. Some of the gas could also be lost to the rear, but I'm not sure about the physics on that.
Fun idea.
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Old September 3, 2002, 04:45 PM   #15
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Jim, Why don't you try out your idea and let everyone know what happens...
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Old September 3, 2002, 06:22 PM   #16
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7.5 Nagant (Swede) better case to work with.
.355 at both ends, and tiny vestigal rim to turn off.

Sam
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Old September 3, 2002, 06:23 PM   #17
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VERMONT RESPONSE

I can already get 2000fps with heavier projectiles ............

Don't try this at home.





--------------------------------------------------

"all my ammo is rockets-in-the-a$$ ammo"
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Old September 3, 2002, 08:43 PM   #18
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Yes, WESHOOT2, and it's a cheap, readily available, on-the-shelf technology...called rifles.
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Old September 3, 2002, 09:02 PM   #19
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TERMINOLOGY 101

Whatsa "rifle"?
Is that the thing you can't smoke with while shooting?
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Old September 3, 2002, 10:10 PM   #20
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I think I'd use a bit of firecracker fuse, inserted through the primer pocket of the .32. No tape.

Odds are that at close range, the whole cartridge would enter the goblin just as ignition was occurring and the powder-burn of the .32 would occur "inside the innards". (Assumption: Aim for center of mass.) I imagine this would give a whole new meaning to "gut bomb" or "a burning sensation", etc.

, Art
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Old September 3, 2002, 10:19 PM   #21
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Heartburn.

Or

Flatulance Flambe'

Depending on anatomical target choice.

Sam
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Old September 3, 2002, 11:30 PM   #22
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Anybody here ever make a "flaming zippy" while sitting around the campfire?

No, it's not the kind as in Blazing Saddles.
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Old September 4, 2002, 01:11 AM   #23
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We seriously need to consult with the artillery shell manufacturers. They know all about that fuse initiation stuff, flame propagation delays, and the sort.

Max effect with with a tuned nozzle, such as used by the Aro-tek(?) Hybrid compensator with its row of ports starting about mid-barrel. The NASA guys and gals can help us with that one.

I doubt that ignition mid-barrel would spike pressure enough to cause damage. The peak occurs within the first two inches of bullet travel and RAPIDLY drops off after that.
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Old September 4, 2002, 03:38 AM   #24
Jim March
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I did a little more reading on the Gyrojet. The original pistol ammo was 13mm wide and pretty long . That's how they got enough rocket fuel in it . Then they realized that 13mm was bigger than 50cal so they couldn't sell it to civvies, and produced a 12mm version...

Hmmmm. Ya, on top of everything else, we ain't gonna get enough boost out of a .32. Or even a 45ACP shell set up as a projectile - too short.

Oh well.

(scratches head)

But...here's a question: I already suspected that additional pressure kicking in when the round was halfway down a 5" or so barrel wouldn't be a problem.

So...what if we *used* that? Take the whole concept of "duplex load" to the next level?

We know powder can be set up as a hard, dry "block". That's how caseless ammo works, right? Or Pyrodex pellets for the black powder crowd, although that's not quite the powder type we want. Still, the principle applies.

OK, take a...hey, I know what we can use for development anyhow, a 148grain .357cal hollow base wadcutter! It's got a big ol' cavity in the back. Fill that with some some sort of powder paste that is going to be dried prior to loading. Figure out a way to delay the ignition of it until it's partway down the barrel! How? Hmmm...layer of rice paper? Layer of thicker paper with a fuse in the middle? Needs more study. But you can make up "experimental controls" that are filled with a non-flammable dried substance of some sort, and chrono those in comparison to the "second stage active" variety, so you can see if you're getting a real "second stage effect".

If it works, "supersize it" by taking a .452 caliber 500grain cast slug, and boring out the tail until it's down to around 250-300 grains, fill the rear with another "second stage load" and use it in a strong .45LC gun.

Peak pressure should be low for the velocity/ME achieved, and recoil energy would be "spread out" across a longer period?
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Old September 4, 2002, 06:11 AM   #25
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Been thinking

of something similar for years...But I was gonna use 12 ga..much more room for projectile/rocket fuel..What I didn't consider was "two stage" effect (using conventional charge to get started), just simple rocket projectile, ignited by primer...(some)Model rocket engines use some kind of black powder for propellant, should be easy to duplicate...No reason projectile must be made outa lead either, could be steel or aluminum...Fin stabilized, smooth bore barrel....Hmmmmmmmmm
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