Speer Grand Slam for whitetail?

youngun · September 3, 2002, 09:31 PM

I'd like to go deer hunting this winter;
Found some Grand Slams on closeout, $13/50, in 150, 165 &180;
Is this too tough a bullet, just punch a clean hole?
I'm thinking .100yds.

Thanks for the help!
youngun

Al Thompson · September 3, 2002, 09:51 PM

That's a good price for a tough bullet. I'm thinking that it's .308 or '06 and the range is sub 100 yards? Should do fine to 300y plus.

Don't forget to zero your rifle with that ammo - there are some major differences in POI/POA when you switch caase lots. let alone brands or weights.l

youngun · September 3, 2002, 11:03 PM

Hey thanks for the response, G.
Sorry, I forgot about the kid brother, yes it's '06.

Now isn't the idea to give controlled expansion, so you don't leave it to run off, with the wind faintly whistlin' through its midsection?
Is there no "too tough" bullet?

**Art Eatman** · September 3, 2002, 11:34 PM

My father started loading with the 150-grain Hornady bullets in the 1940s. I started meddling around in 1950 with the Remington Bronze Points, and for no particular reason have wound up using mostly the Sierra 150-grain bullets since whenever they first came out.

They all work.

I'd be prone to save Grand Slams for elk or trophy-sized muleys. Whitetails tend to go "Flop!" pretty easily, really. However, if you got 'em, use 'em.

I've always had very good luck with 4064. With a possibly-harder jacket (I know the Winchester Fail Safe jackets are harder) I'd work up toward book max from whatever is the suggested starting load. Generally, a grain under max is as good as max, as far as Bambi is concerned. He'll never know the difference. And, usually, a bit under max is for some reason a bit tighter grouping than full house.

, Art

Cain R · September 4, 2002, 12:30 AM

I really like the 165gr load for the '06.

Loaded with 58.5 grs IMR-4350, Rem cases and Fed 210 primers I get consistent 3/4" groups with my Savage 110.

THIS LOAD IS SLIGHLTY OVER MAX IN MANY OF THE NEW RELOADING MANUALS, SO PROCEED WITH CAUTION FOR YOUR RIFLE. ITS FINE IN MINE BUT MAY NOT BE OKAY IN YOURS!!

I picked this load up from an older issue of Handloader mag and its never failed to perform in any of my '06.

Just be aware of the potential pressure issues.

Al Thompson · September 4, 2002, 07:28 AM

Oops, missed the reloading angle.

Frankly, I like two holes in my target - lets more blood in, air out. When I was with the USDA animal control folks, we tried 168 Match Kings and those were "Too Tough". Inconsistant results - sometimes good performance, sometimes a pencil sized hole poked through the critter. I havve had very good results with Ballistic Tips, Hornadys and Speer HotCore bullets.

FWIW, IMR 4350 has performed the best for me over a broad range of .30-06's.

labgrade · September 4, 2002, 06:56 PM

Whitetails? I'd go 150s "just because." 165s? Why not? Same difference. 180? "why bother with the added recoil?

There aren't any that'd need more than that if you put the bullet where it's supposed to go.

Dogjaw · September 9, 2002, 09:11 PM

Not a great buy. Check out what I just posted on
The Hunt: What .300WM load for shorter range whitetail? The Grand Slam bullet was at the bottom of scale in performance.

The Hornady Interlock will do the same for a lot less. My folks just got back from a caribou hunt in Northwest Territories, Canada. He used reloaded 165 grain SP Hornady Interlocks in a 30-06. The first caribou was shot at 50 yards, reared up and flipped over on it's back dead (shot in the lungs). The second caribou was shot at 250 yards and dropped in it's tracks (shot in the lungs). I've used Interlocks in several calibers on deer with very good results, and they're acurate.

youngun · September 10, 2002, 03:05 AM

Interesting, Dogjaw.
I'd love to read the article.
I wish the author had the expansion of each bullet.
Also seems different guns like different bullets.
Can you buy the Hornadys for much less than $13 a box or so?

Dogjaw · September 10, 2002, 06:27 AM

youngun,

The author did give the expansions. I just got tired of typing.

It's the October issue. It might be still on the selves at the store. I found it interesting that the Grand Slam had a recovered frontal dia. of .7 on both impact tests. It penetrated more at low impact velocity, than High velocity. In the high velocity test, it had the penetration and cavity profile like the Nosler Ballistic Tip.

Looking over the chart overall, the conventional bullets did very well against the premium in frontal diameter and penetration in the low velocity impact test.

You had a price of $13 per 50 for Speer Grand Slams. I buy Hornady Interlocks all day locally for $18 per 100 ($9 per 50).
I just went to Midsouth Shooters Supply and this is their price on Hornady Interlock 165 gr. Spire Points. $13.66 per 100 ct.
Grand Slams are $14.89 per 50 ct.

Here's the site: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/

I copied and pasted the post from the other thread so it can be read without bouncing back and forth.

Timing is everything. I was just reading an article in Shooting Times Magazine on terminal performance of hunting bullets (October 2002 issue). The test used a .300 Winchester Magnum using low and high velocity impact into animal glue expansion medium AT 30 FEET. Bullets were all 180 grain. I think this will answer a few questions. Here's some of the results:

High Velocity Impact

Swift A-Frame
impact velocity = 3048 fps
Retained weight = 163 (91%)
Penetration = 12"

Winchester Fail Safe
I V = 3143 fps
Retained weight = 144 (80%)
Penetration = 19"

Barnes X
I V = 3031 fps
Retained Weight = 134 (74%)
Penetration = 18

Nosler Partition
I V = 2923 fps
Retained weight = 123 (68%)
Penetration = 15"

Hornady SP Interlock
I V = 3055 fps
Retained Weight = 104 (58%)
Penetration = 10"

Speer Grand Slam
I V = 3107 fps
Retained Weight = 104 (58%)
Penetration = 10

Sierra Spitzer BT
I V = 3081 fps
Retained Weight = 78 (43%)
Penetration = 9
--------------------------------------------------------
Low Velocity Impact

Swift A-Frame
impact velocity = 1995 fps
Retained weight = 179 (99%)
Penetration = 14"

Winchester Fail Safe
I V = 1997 fps
Retained weight = 180 (100%)
Penetration = 18"

Barnes X
I V = 1930 fps
Retained Weight = 180 (100%)
Penetration = 10

Nosler Partition
I V = 2021 fps
Retained weight = 171 (95%)
Penetration = 14"

Hornady SP Interlock
I V = 1991 fps
Retained Weight = 174 (97%)
Penetration = 12"

Speer Grand Slam
I V = 2010 fps
Retained Weight = 173 (96%)
Penetration = 13

Sierra Spitzer BT
I V = 2017 fps
Retained Weight = 175 (97%)
Penetration = 11

youngun · September 11, 2002, 02:51 AM

Great Dogjaw.
Now I have all of these Grand Slams and Im wondering if I should waste the time developing a load for them, if I'm not going to keep buying them once they're gone.
-Though I have to say, for a "premium" bullet, the price ain't all THAT bad.

It doens't reallysurprise me that they penetrate more at low-impact velocities - if you can call them that.
A quick look at my factory ballistics chart shows a .300 winmag pushing 180 gr less than 3000 fps at the muzzle.
So "high velocity impact" at 3100 fps is somewhat an understatement. I'm not sure how useful that data is, since the bullet makers have to project a functional velocity range in which they expect their bullet to perform - and it ain't the muzzle!
Whereas the "low velocity" figures are about right for the .300 winmag at about 400 yds, and the '06 at about 300 or so.

Since I'll be lucky to get 2350 at 200 I'm not sure this is a bad thing.

I guess I'll push on and see what kind of performance I can get.
After all, there are worse forms of torture than playing with bullets!

[I am surprised, as I look these charts over, to see the '06 at 400 yds is only 20 fps slower and 2 1/2" lower than the .300 WM! This is limited to the 180 gr in particular. The other weights heavier and lighter the .300 blows the '06 out of the water.)

youngun

pilon · September 11, 2002, 03:03 AM

For whitetails you really don't need premium bullet - with .30-06.
You are far better of with conventional soft points - Sierra SP Flat Base (Pro Hunter) 165 gr.

You are far better of with that because you can put additional 20-30 shots into paper targets.
Particulary if you expect 100- 200 yards distances

But If you dont mind the extra $ - Grand Slam is one of the top bullets ( Nosler Partition, Swift A-Frame, Winchester FailSafe, Barnes-X).

Dogjaw · September 11, 2002, 06:12 AM

youngun,

The 3100 fps is because he had loaded each. The Grand Slam looked good in conventional rifle speeds. If your using an 06, they'll work fine. The penetration is deeper at the lower speed because the initial shock is lower, allowing the bullet mass to stay intact and "push" through rather than blowing up near the surface. This is a big problem for magnum rilfe shooters and why a premium bullet is used in magnums at close range. On the other hand, proper expansion can be a problem with some of the tougher premium bullets at long range. If your shots are at 300 yards with a magnum, a conventional bullet should work great.

If you have a bunch bought, use them. I used the chart to compare the Grand Slam to other bullets with similar performance. They just cost a lot less. Truthfully, I almost bought some Grand Slams myself. My eyes kinda popped when I read the article.

Hawkman · September 11, 2002, 08:43 AM

What Dogjaw said. My manuals show the 180 coming out of a 30.06 at about 2700 fps max. A 100 yd shot with the 180 Grand Slam will give you nice bullet performance. I'm loading them right now for deer season.

youngun · September 11, 2002, 02:02 PM

Hawkman - as an aside -
What powder are you using?
youngun

**Art Eatman** · September 11, 2002, 02:29 PM

I've been using 4064 since 1950, for 150- through 180-grain bullets. I've tried other stuff, but nothing has done any better for accuracy. 100 ft/sec one way or the other won't ever matter to Bambi, for sure.

For varmint loads, I've used a 110-grain bullet with 3031.

Art

Mannlicher · September 11, 2002, 10:15 PM

I hate to admit it but sometimes the availability of a bargain can change your bullet choice. Last year, I cought the closeout of Kmart's ammo here in Miami. I picked up 20 boxes of Federal 150 soft point, HiShock .270 ammo. Packed 20 to the plastic pack, thats 400 rounds. $1.00 a pack was not a bad price. The deer I hunt now will just have to be content with being shot with that instead of the 130 grain Remington CorLocks I like.

Dogjaw · September 13, 2002, 09:09 PM

In 30-06, I have extremely good luck with Win 760 in 165 & 180 grain bullets.

106RR · September 14, 2002, 07:46 PM

There was a test in one of the old Handloaders Digest showing excellent performance from Speer Mag Tips. They are half the price of GS and deliver great performance. The GS has a slighly higher BC. The Mag Tip has a large window of expansion velocity. it does well at 1600 fps and 3100 fps.

labgrade · September 14, 2002, 09:10 PM

Assuming proper ballistics, not a downloaded round, etc., I see no reason to go premium anything for "just deer."

A bare-bones Hornady, Speer, whatever will kill 'em all if the bullet's placed properly. Feel undergunned? Go to a 165.

.308 I shoot 165s, .30-06 = 180s, but that's for elk & no sense beatin' yourself all up with 180s when after deer.

September 3, 2002, 09:31 PM	#1
youngun Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 323	Speer Grand Slam for whitetail? I'd like to go deer hunting this winter; Found some Grand Slams on closeout, $13/50, in 150, 165 &180; Is this too tough a bullet, just punch a clean hole? I'm thinking .100yds. Thanks for the help! youngun __________________ New firing pin: $12. New extractor: $15. Ballistic fingerprinting: worthless.

September 3, 2002, 09:51 PM	#2
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,574	That's a good price for a tough bullet. I'm thinking that it's .308 or '06 and the range is sub 100 yards? Should do fine to 300y plus. Don't forget to zero your rifle with that ammo - there are some major differences in POI/POA when you switch caase lots. let alone brands or weights.l __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

September 3, 2002, 11:03 PM	#3
youngun Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 323	Hey thanks for the response, G. Sorry, I forgot about the kid brother, yes it's '06. Now isn't the idea to give controlled expansion, so you don't leave it to run off, with the wind faintly whistlin' through its midsection? Is there no "too tough" bullet? __________________ New firing pin: $12. New extractor: $15. Ballistic fingerprinting: worthless.

September 3, 2002, 11:34 PM	#4
Art Eatman Staff Lead Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX, USA Posts: 20,936	My father started loading with the 150-grain Hornady bullets in the 1940s. I started meddling around in 1950 with the Remington Bronze Points, and for no particular reason have wound up using mostly the Sierra 150-grain bullets since whenever they first came out. They all work. I'd be prone to save Grand Slams for elk or trophy-sized muleys. Whitetails tend to go "Flop!" pretty easily, really. However, if you got 'em, use 'em. I've always had very good luck with 4064. With a possibly-harder jacket (I know the Winchester Fail Safe jackets are harder) I'd work up toward book max from whatever is the suggested starting load. Generally, a grain under max is as good as max, as far as Bambi is concerned. He'll never know the difference. And, usually, a bit under max is for some reason a bit tighter grouping than full house. , Art __________________ You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!

September 4, 2002, 07:28 AM	#6
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,574	RTFQ!! Oops, missed the reloading angle. Frankly, I like two holes in my target - lets more blood in, air out. When I was with the USDA animal control folks, we tried 168 Match Kings and those were "Too Tough". Inconsistant results - sometimes good performance, sometimes a pencil sized hole poked through the critter. I havve had very good results with Ballistic Tips, Hornadys and Speer HotCore bullets. FWIW, IMR 4350 has performed the best for me over a broad range of .30-06's. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

September 4, 2002, 12:30 AM	#5
Cain R Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2001 Location: Peoples Dominion of Kanada Posts: 288	I really like the 165gr load for the '06. Loaded with 58.5 grs IMR-4350, Rem cases and Fed 210 primers I get consistent 3/4" groups with my Savage 110. THIS LOAD IS SLIGHLTY OVER MAX IN MANY OF THE NEW RELOADING MANUALS, SO PROCEED WITH CAUTION FOR YOUR RIFLE. ITS FINE IN MINE BUT MAY NOT BE OKAY IN YOURS!! I picked this load up from an older issue of Handloader mag and its never failed to perform in any of my '06. Just be aware of the potential pressure issues.

September 4, 2002, 06:56 PM	#7
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Whitetails? I'd go 150s "just because." 165s? Why not? Same difference. 180? "why bother with the added recoil? There aren't any that'd need more than that if you put the bullet where it's supposed to go.

September 9, 2002, 09:11 PM	#8
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	Not a great buy. Check out what I just posted on The Hunt: What .300WM load for shorter range whitetail? The Grand Slam bullet was at the bottom of scale in performance. The Hornady Interlock will do the same for a lot less. My folks just got back from a caribou hunt in Northwest Territories, Canada. He used reloaded 165 grain SP Hornady Interlocks in a 30-06. The first caribou was shot at 50 yards, reared up and flipped over on it's back dead (shot in the lungs). The second caribou was shot at 250 yards and dropped in it's tracks (shot in the lungs). I've used Interlocks in several calibers on deer with very good results, and they're acurate. __________________ There are three kinds of men: 1) The ones that learn by reading. 2) The few who learn by observation. 3) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves..........

September 10, 2002, 03:05 AM	#9
youngun Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 323	Interesting, Dogjaw. I'd love to read the article. I wish the author had the expansion of each bullet. Also seems different guns like different bullets. Can you buy the Hornadys for much less than $13 a box or so? __________________ New firing pin: $12. New extractor: $15. Ballistic fingerprinting: worthless.

September 10, 2002, 06:27 AM	#10
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	youngun, The author did give the expansions. I just got tired of typing. It's the October issue. It might be still on the selves at the store. I found it interesting that the Grand Slam had a recovered frontal dia. of .7 on both impact tests. It penetrated more at low impact velocity, than High velocity. In the high velocity test, it had the penetration and cavity profile like the Nosler Ballistic Tip. Looking over the chart overall, the conventional bullets did very well against the premium in frontal diameter and penetration in the low velocity impact test. You had a price of $13 per 50 for Speer Grand Slams. I buy Hornady Interlocks all day locally for $18 per 100 ($9 per 50). I just went to Midsouth Shooters Supply and this is their price on Hornady Interlock 165 gr. Spire Points. $13.66 per 100 ct. Grand Slams are $14.89 per 50 ct. Here's the site: http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/ I copied and pasted the post from the other thread so it can be read without bouncing back and forth. Timing is everything. I was just reading an article in Shooting Times Magazine on terminal performance of hunting bullets (October 2002 issue). The test used a .300 Winchester Magnum using low and high velocity impact into animal glue expansion medium AT 30 FEET. Bullets were all 180 grain. I think this will answer a few questions. Here's some of the results: High Velocity Impact Swift A-Frame impact velocity = 3048 fps Retained weight = 163 (91%) Penetration = 12" Winchester Fail Safe I V = 3143 fps Retained weight = 144 (80%) Penetration = 19" Barnes X I V = 3031 fps Retained Weight = 134 (74%) Penetration = 18 Nosler Partition I V = 2923 fps Retained weight = 123 (68%) Penetration = 15" Hornady SP Interlock I V = 3055 fps Retained Weight = 104 (58%) Penetration = 10" Speer Grand Slam I V = 3107 fps Retained Weight = 104 (58%) Penetration = 10 Sierra Spitzer BT I V = 3081 fps Retained Weight = 78 (43%) Penetration = 9 -------------------------------------------------------- Low Velocity Impact Swift A-Frame impact velocity = 1995 fps Retained weight = 179 (99%) Penetration = 14" Winchester Fail Safe I V = 1997 fps Retained weight = 180 (100%) Penetration = 18" Barnes X I V = 1930 fps Retained Weight = 180 (100%) Penetration = 10 Nosler Partition I V = 2021 fps Retained weight = 171 (95%) Penetration = 14" Hornady SP Interlock I V = 1991 fps Retained Weight = 174 (97%) Penetration = 12" Speer Grand Slam I V = 2010 fps Retained Weight = 173 (96%) Penetration = 13 Sierra Spitzer BT I V = 2017 fps Retained Weight = 175 (97%) Penetration = 11 __________________ There are three kinds of men: 1) The ones that learn by reading. 2) The few who learn by observation. 3) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves..........

September 11, 2002, 02:51 AM	#11
youngun Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 323	Great Dogjaw. Now I have all of these Grand Slams and Im wondering if I should waste the time developing a load for them, if I'm not going to keep buying them once they're gone. -Though I have to say, for a "premium" bullet, the price ain't all THAT bad. It doens't reallysurprise me that they penetrate more at low-impact velocities - if you can call them that. A quick look at my factory ballistics chart shows a .300 winmag pushing 180 gr less than 3000 fps at the muzzle. So "high velocity impact" at 3100 fps is somewhat an understatement. I'm not sure how useful that data is, since the bullet makers have to project a functional velocity range in which they expect their bullet to perform - and it ain't the muzzle! Whereas the "low velocity" figures are about right for the .300 winmag at about 400 yds, and the '06 at about 300 or so. Since I'll be lucky to get 2350 at 200 I'm not sure this is a bad thing. I guess I'll push on and see what kind of performance I can get. After all, there are worse forms of torture than playing with bullets! [I am surprised, as I look these charts over, to see the '06 at 400 yds is only 20 fps slower and 2 1/2" lower than the .300 WM! This is limited to the 180 gr in particular. The other weights heavier and lighter the .300 blows the '06 out of the water.) youngun __________________ New firing pin: $12. New extractor: $15. Ballistic fingerprinting: worthless.

September 11, 2002, 03:03 AM	#12
pilon Member Join Date: June 4, 2001 Posts: 35	For whitetails you really don't need premium bullet - with .30-06. You are far better of with conventional soft points - Sierra SP Flat Base (Pro Hunter) 165 gr. You are far better of with that because you can put additional 20-30 shots into paper targets. Particulary if you expect 100- 200 yards distances But If you dont mind the extra $ - Grand Slam is one of the top bullets ( Nosler Partition, Swift A-Frame, Winchester FailSafe, Barnes-X).

September 11, 2002, 06:12 AM	#13
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	youngun, The 3100 fps is because he had loaded each. The Grand Slam looked good in conventional rifle speeds. If your using an 06, they'll work fine. The penetration is deeper at the lower speed because the initial shock is lower, allowing the bullet mass to stay intact and "push" through rather than blowing up near the surface. This is a big problem for magnum rilfe shooters and why a premium bullet is used in magnums at close range. On the other hand, proper expansion can be a problem with some of the tougher premium bullets at long range. If your shots are at 300 yards with a magnum, a conventional bullet should work great. If you have a bunch bought, use them. I used the chart to compare the Grand Slam to other bullets with similar performance. They just cost a lot less. Truthfully, I almost bought some Grand Slams myself. My eyes kinda popped when I read the article. __________________ There are three kinds of men: 1) The ones that learn by reading. 2) The few who learn by observation. 3) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves..........

September 11, 2002, 08:43 AM	#14
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 442	What Dogjaw said. My manuals show the 180 coming out of a 30.06 at about 2700 fps max. A 100 yd shot with the 180 Grand Slam will give you nice bullet performance. I'm loading them right now for deer season.

September 11, 2002, 02:02 PM	#15
youngun Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 323	Hawkman - as an aside - What powder are you using? youngun __________________ New firing pin: $12. New extractor: $15. Ballistic fingerprinting: worthless.

September 11, 2002, 02:29 PM	#16
Art Eatman Staff Lead Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX, USA Posts: 20,936	I've been using 4064 since 1950, for 150- through 180-grain bullets. I've tried other stuff, but nothing has done any better for accuracy. 100 ft/sec one way or the other won't ever matter to Bambi, for sure. For varmint loads, I've used a 110-grain bullet with 3031. Art __________________ You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!

September 11, 2002, 10:15 PM	#17
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida Posts: 2,933	I hate to admit it but sometimes the availability of a bargain can change your bullet choice. Last year, I cought the closeout of Kmart's ammo here in Miami. I picked up 20 boxes of Federal 150 soft point, HiShock .270 ammo. Packed 20 to the plastic pack, thats 400 rounds. $1.00 a pack was not a bad price. The deer I hunt now will just have to be content with being shot with that instead of the 130 grain Remington CorLocks I like. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

September 13, 2002, 09:09 PM	#18
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	In 30-06, I have extremely good luck with Win 760 in 165 & 180 grain bullets. __________________ There are three kinds of men: 1) The ones that learn by reading. 2) The few who learn by observation. 3) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves..........

September 14, 2002, 07:46 PM	#19
106RR Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2002 Posts: 216	There was a test in one of the old Handloaders Digest showing excellent performance from Speer Mag Tips. They are half the price of GS and deliver great performance. The GS has a slighly higher BC. The Mag Tip has a large window of expansion velocity. it does well at 1600 fps and 3100 fps.

September 14, 2002, 09:10 PM	#20
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Assuming proper ballistics, not a downloaded round, etc., I see no reason to go premium anything for "just deer." A bare-bones Hornady, Speer, whatever will kill 'em all if the bullet's placed properly. Feel undergunned? Go to a 165. .308 I shoot 165s, .30-06 = 180s, but that's for elk & no sense beatin' yourself all up with 180s when after deer.