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Old August 17, 2002, 02:19 PM   #76
larryw
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I was reading some of the past Commentaries from Col. Cooper last night and ran across this from Vol. 3, No. 6:

"... Glock trigger, which means that the safety is incorporated in the trigger (which is something like stamping the combination on the safe door.) Of course, as Glock points out, if you keep your finger outside the trigger-guard where it belongs until you can see your sights, this will not give you any trouble. The same can be said of a 1911 with the safety off."

That said and (IMO) agreed with, I just sold my P7M8. Great gun, just too small for my hands.

If the shooter is unable to keep the squeeze cocker locked, they don't have the hand strength to safely hold and fire a handgun. It takes less force to dent a coke can than lock the cocker back. And maintaining the lock is trivial. My P7 digested everything I ever fed it without complaint (did choke on some WinClean when new, but that same box also choked a buddy's Glock.) I read that Ayoob ran something like 4K rouds through his without a cleaning (there's a pic and story of it online, anyone?). If I could buy the larger framed P7M10 in CA, I would in a heartbeat.

And how do you know when Lunde hits the gun range? When the Brinks truck rolls up and unloads his gun collection.
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Old August 17, 2002, 04:41 PM   #77
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And finally, it's true, you can't shoot more than 50 rounds quickly without burning your hands. HOWEVER, this is irrelevant for a real world combat handgun, where you will never put more than 50 rounds through your gun and stay alive.

Never having even seen a P7 (and having little to no interest in actually owning one, save if I suddenly come into a huge surplus of cash), I don't know how fast they heat up and cool off.

But when I go out and shoot, I would guesstimate that I burn through at least 200-300 rounds of ammunition per firearm that I bring out (depending on magazine size - it's easier to hit 300 with a 15 rd 9mm than a 7 rd .45).

Practice is vital; I'd hate to shoot a few mags, then have to wait an hour before I can hold onto my pistol to shoot with it some more.
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Old August 17, 2002, 04:59 PM   #78
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Greg Bell,

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I would like to know where I can find data that corroborates this statement. I've noticed this, and claims that the Germans were having ND/AD problems more and more--but I've never seen the source. I would like to figure out if this is true or just internet "wisdom" that has snowballed.
It's true; I've seen it from more than one source. Perhaps German TFL'er T.Stahl can source us some links to stories in the German press. Basically, it happens thusly; Johnny Law, feeling nervous, has P7 in hand, covering offender. Something startles him or raises his hackles, and he squeezes the pistol to cock it. Unfortunately, his finger has migrated to the trigger (remember, it's completely safe to put your finger there!) and *BANG!* Dead citizen.
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Old August 17, 2002, 05:07 PM   #79
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Tam,

Yeah, I've heard this before. I surely don't doubt some fool has pulled it off(somebody has probably done it with a Vp70z!)--but I would like to see the data. Further, it was stated that there were more with the P7 than any other gun--I would really, really like to see the source of this factoid.

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Old August 18, 2002, 04:30 AM   #80
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Perhaps German TFL'er T.Stahl can source us some links to stories in the German press.
Well, there's a collector of "German police handguns from God-knows-when until present" in our club who I could ask. I missed the opportunity yesterday, maybe I'll meet him again in two weeks. I could also ask on a German board.
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Old August 18, 2002, 04:31 AM   #81
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Greg Bell

Please reference me to your source regarding pressure needed to maintain the HKP7 squeeze cock. Where is that written? Thanks.
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Old August 18, 2002, 07:08 AM   #82
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TomB,

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Please reference me to your source regarding pressure needed to maintain the HKP7 squeeze cock. Where is that written? Thanks.
Page 4 of the instruction manual.
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Old August 18, 2002, 10:46 AM   #83
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Search the NJ area newspapers? I remember hearing about 4 of 'em. That's about 1 per 1000 officers. NYPD didn't have 38 in the same amount of time, Chicago PD didn't have 13... Joke was the NJSP motto was "Halt, or I'll shoot myself!"

OK, OK, the NJSP is a fine organization, one of the best, but it did happen way more than it should have until they got the hang of it, and it was embarassing. Some PDs had fewer problems w their new autos than their old revolvers, some did not. Maybe it's just a temporary bug during transitions? Beats me.

Alameda county in CA switched from Glocks to SIGs after a series of embarassing NDs.

A DEA agent shot himself in the butt w his Glock, a US Marshal shot himself in the thigh w his Glock... the feds still issue and love those Glocks.

Officer left his Glock on the table, his kid shot him w it...

Officer left her Glock in the car while she unloaded groceries, her kid shot his brother w it...

None of this has kept Glock from becoming Numero Uno in the market.

All modern guns are "safe". All people can be trained to be safe. When ya put em together though, some combos are "safer" than others when ya put 'em in real hands in the real world? IOW, some are more "idiot" proof than others?

I've been shooting handguns for 26 yrs. Mostly Glocks since 1987. SA XDs and Walther P99s now. The only ND I ever had was w a Ruger revolver (nothing hurt but dirt thank gawd!)!?
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Old August 18, 2002, 01:12 PM   #84
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Hard facts about Glock reliablilty

First let me state that I do not want to upset people so I will only post this info once and not make any further replys.

Second: I own two Glocks and have had no serious problems with them. They work fine and I like them.

Third: I have always been very interested in the mechanical history of firearms and keep an open mind in regards to the faults of firearms that may even be my favorites.

For those who are serious about studying the mechanical history of glock reliablity I suggest you go to this web site and read what a professional has to say about the reliablity of the Glock pistol.

http://communities.prodigy.net/sport...glock-dir.html

.[[B]Some interesting facts that you will find at this sight are:[/B

The Glock failed the Austrian test trials. In the throw test slides flew off the frames and when loaded the weapon fired.

One of the many Glock recall and design changes (updates) half cured one defect and created some utterly new unreliablity problems.

Workmanship and therefore reliablity varies quite a bit resulting in some very happy Glock owners and some not so happy Glock owners.


One case in point was that the New York City police department had so many phase 3 jams (partially extracted and stuck fired case) that they threatend to get rid of all their Glock 19's and buy Ruger automatics. Up until that threat was made Glock had ignored all of their complaints with the response that their pistol was not defective. Only then did they agree to do something about the problem.

My own thoughts are:

What is distrubing is that there are more pictures and posts of Glock blow ups than any other automatic pistol.

One response to the glock kabooms and recals has been that since so many Glocks are in existance there are bound to be more problems. I do not think that this argument is valid considering that there have been much longer production runs of other very famous pistols including the German HK P7. Yet in no case has there been the multitude of kabooms, design changes and recalls that the Glock pistol has had.

I think that workmanshipwise the node goes to the HK. And reliablity in the short run goes to the HK.

If prolonged shooting is taken into consideration a Glock that is reliable will keep functioning longer than the HK because of the HK's gas operated system is definately not as reliable when multitudes of rounds are fired through it.

Summary:

Price: The nod goes to the Glock. The price of the HK puts it out of reach for many people.

Accuracy: My own HK pistols easily out shoot my Glocks.

Investment: The Hk is the better investment in terms of future worth.

Workmanship: By far the HK.

Safety: Slightly and only slightly to the HK. Glocks lack of a manuel safety has caused A.D.'s but so has the squeeze cocking mechanism of the HK.

Reliablity: On average its the HK under normal firing conditions, unless hundreds of rounds are fired without cleaning.

Beauty: In my own preception the HK although not outstandingly graceful is much more pleasing to the eye than the Glock.

Trigger Pull: Slightly to the HK. The HK's trigger pull while mushy is more managable than the creepy trigger pull of the Glock.

Sights: The HK. They are more durable than the Glock.

Balance and pointability: A close tie.

Kabooms: The Glock has had many more than the HK has.
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Old August 18, 2002, 02:53 PM   #85
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So the Glock failed the Austrian army trials? That's total bull, why did the Austrians adapt the Glock?

Glock has more kabooms than H-ks? I challange anyone to come up with firm numbers from reliable sources.

More web BS.
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Old August 18, 2002, 08:27 PM   #86
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Oh my god, are you seriously suggesting that the HK P7 blows up more often than the Glock. C'mon man. I've seen cracked platic Glock frames, but I'll be damned if I've ever seen a cracked steel P7 frame. A lot of this Glock is better than the P7 stuff souds to me like sour grapes rationalization... it's so expensive, I can't afford it, but I don't really want one. Another thing I don't get is why everyone's so worked up about the P7 getting so hot after firing 50 rounds. If you're using a fighting handgun like the P7 for what it's really intended for, how often are you going to go through 50+ rounds? If you want to play shooting games like IPSC sure, go for a glock or some weird hi-cap 1911 in 38 super. Bur for the real world, I'll take a P7 any day.
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Old August 19, 2002, 07:51 AM   #87
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TMfr,

Quote:
One response to the glock kabooms and recals has been that since so many Glocks are in existance there are bound to be more problems. I do not think that this argument is valid considering that there have been much longer production runs of other very famous pistols including the German HK P7.
One doesn't hear about too many 9mm Glock kB!'s, either.

As far as "much longer production runs", it wouldn't surprise me if Glock churns out more pistols in any given six month period than there are in the entire production run of the P7, all variants. That's one reason the P7 has never been a big commercial hit; its high price reflects its less-than-easy-to-mass-produce nature.
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Old August 19, 2002, 02:10 PM   #88
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He meant the USA/DEA pistol trials, not Austrian army trials.

The DEA has been issuing Glock 40s for several yrs now too; guess Glock fixed that and the DEA got over it?

Glock was near the bottom of the barrel when the FBI evaluated guns in the late 80s; they issue Glock 40s now too.

NYPD recruits are briefed on the G19 problems, they still pick Glock the most often as a duty weapon.

Hmmm...

Numerous Glocks (and some Berettas, Kel-Tecs, a Walther) in 40/45/357 have been damaged w factory ammo on the 2 public, 2 private, and 2 LE ranges I am most familiar w around here. Way more than Glock 9s, or any other 9s, and the 9s have been around longer, still more 9s being shot (the city uses Glock 9s, have more officers than the state (357) and surrounding counties (40) put together). Still more 9 ammo being sold, guns shot at the rental range. They have seen several Glocks and a Walther in 40/357 damaged w factory ammo just this year; still waiting for the first 9 to be damaged as bad w factory ammo. YMMV.

Doesn't matter. The 40/357 and Glocks are here to stay. The 9mm and P7 are treading water, on the way down? In the USA, especially for LE, anyway.
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Old August 19, 2002, 04:35 PM   #89
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The choice of law enforcement "professionals"

So, the FBI is in love with the Glock 40? The same FBI that just took a giant leap backwards by adopting the hopelessly out of date 1911? Wow, where do I sign up!? As far as I'm concerned, the guns chosen by the law enforcement's elite of are the ones to avoid... Why, you ask? Well, let's think about the criteria the FBI and every other "I need to look bad ass" organization uses in selecting a new weapon. First of all, it needs to be cheap. Second, it needs to be so safe and so simple that even the stupidest person can use it "proficiently" without accidentally shooting himself or someone innocent... that means squeeze cockers are out if for no other reason than excess "complication." When you're issuing a weapon, you need to appeal to the lowest common denominator...

Remember, the FBI are the folks who sang the praises of the 10mm, only to admit later that their guns were too powerful for their own meager shooting skills. So why did they switch to the 10mm in the first place? Oh yeah, because they needed a round that, unlike their current 9mm, could kill a taget instantly regardless of shot placement. Or at least, that was the idea, right? After all, when their agents were killed as a result of the badguy failing to go down after being shot, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact he was shot once in the shoulder, right? right? The FBI needed someone or something to blame, and since they couldn't blame their failure on their own incompetence, they blamed their guns instead. The feds may have fooled some of you into thinking that they're some sort of firearms authority, but I think the facts speak for themselves. The next time the FBI chooses a new handgun, I know exactly where it belongs... the trash can.


*edited for typos*

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Old August 19, 2002, 06:30 PM   #90
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I loved your post Black Razor

There is much wisdom in your response.
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Old August 19, 2002, 07:05 PM   #91
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Ah, the One-True-Sworders make an appearance.

Let's have some fun.

BlackRazor opines:

Quote:
The choice of law enforcement "professionals"

So, the FBI is in love with the Glock 40?
If you'd call "Purchasing several thousand after holding a rigorous selection process" being "in love", then yes, I guess they are.

Quote:
The same FBI that just took a giant leap backwards by adopting the hopelessly out of date 1911?
What makes it "hopelessly out of date"? What exactly will your favorite pistol do that the FBI SWAT 1911 won't do? (As I own both a P7M8 and a Springfield Professional, I'd be interested in finding out. Maybe it's "sour grapes rationalization", as the Professional is too expensive, so you settle for the much cheaper, mass-produced squeeze cocker. ) Perhaps you could share your enlightenment with the FBI's Crisis Response Group, LAPD SWAT, USMC MEU-SOC units and others who've made such a hopelessly obsolete choice in sidearms.

Quote:
Wow, where do I sign up!? As far as I'm concerned, the guns chosen by the law enforcement's elite of are the ones to avoid... Why, you ask? Well, let's think about the criteria the FBI and every other "I need to look bad ass" organization uses in selecting a new weapon. First of all, it needs to be cheap.
Does this include the LE agencies who have adopted your fave, the P7, or just LE agencies that adopt guns you don't like?

Quote:
Second, it needs to be so safe and so simple that even the stupidest person can use it "proficiently" without accidentally shooting himself or someone innocent... that means squeeze cockers are out if for no other reason than excess "complication." When you're issuing a weapon, you need to appeal to the lowest common denominator...
Ooohhh, you're confusing me now: FBI SWAT is too stupid to operate a squeeze-cocker, so they issue a C&L 1911 instead?

Quote:
Remember, the FBI are the folks who sang the praises of the 10mm, only to admit later that their guns were too powerful for their own meager shooting skills.
Actually, that's a myth. They had problems with the guns, not the round.

Quote:
So why did they switch to the 10mm in the first place? Oh yeah, because they needed a round that, unlike their current 9mm, could kill a taget instantly regardless of shot placement. Or at least, that was the idea, right? After all, when their agents were killed as a result of the badgun failing to go down after being shot, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact he was shot once in the shoulder, right? right?
Maybe you should ascertain exactly where the "badgun"[sic] was hit before issuing such confident proclamations.

Quote:
The FBI needed someone or something to blame, and since they couldn't blame their failure on their own incompetence, they blamed their guns instead. The feds may have fooled some of you into thinking that they're some sort of firearms authority, but I think the facts speak for themselves.
The facts indeed do speak for themselves, once you actually learn them.

Quote:
The next time the FBI chooses a new handgun, I know exactly where it belongs... the trash can.
It's a free country, buy what you want.
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Old August 19, 2002, 07:12 PM   #92
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Quote:
The next time the FBI chooses a new handgun, I know exactly where it belongs... the trash can.

Looks like im gonna be doin' a little dumpster diving at your place.
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Old August 19, 2002, 07:28 PM   #93
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ouch!

Tamara, you hit back hard, man! Just the way I like it! (Don't worry, no offense taken here, we gun nuts have to stick together). Now, with the formalities out of the way...

I have to admit, I have a big beef with the 1911. For it's time, it was a brilliant, fantastic design, but now, nearly 100 years later, it leaves a lot to be desired. The worst problem with the 1911 is it's extractor design, which really handicaps the reliability. The thing has to work like a spring, yet be hard enough to extract thousands of rounds over and over again... in the end it always seems to be a problem. Now, like all things, I suppose infinite amounts of money can solve the problem, but it just seems like changing the design (as it was for the Hi-Power aka 1911 version 2.0) would be a better way to go. The feed-ramp barrel gap is another problem that seems to affect the reliability of the 1911, although this too can be fixed with hand-polishing and fitting (or you can build the ramp into the barrel like Para-Ordnance did). The 1911 is also the only pistol I've had slam fire on me due to the hammer follow. Lastly, I'm not a huge fan of the .45 round, but I really shouldn't get into this here, since there are already thousands of posts about this topic and it's been beaten to death. Well, OK, I can't help myself: the .45 offers only a slight increase in energy but has a lot more recoil and lower capacity and poorer trajectory and poorer penetration and... blah blah blah).

As far as P7 vs. 1911, besides the above mentioned problems with the 1911, the P7 can be fired faster, is more reliable, has lower recoil, weighs less, and takes up less space.

As far as the badguy (hey, I spelled it right this time ), he was hit in the shoulder from the side, the bullet failed to go through his arm into his body, so they FBI blamed the gun. I forget the name of the shootout right now, but it's a pretty well known incident, and I think it occured in Florida... it pretty much sparked the whole stopping power debate if I remember correctly.

There were problems with the 10mm guns in addition to the recoil which was also considered one of the problems... if I remember correctly one of the problems was the cracking of the plastic Glock frames... yet another Glock problem?

I agree, it is a free country (heck, did I mention I own a 1911 even though I just slammed it?). At least we're allowed to have arguments like this, right?
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Old August 19, 2002, 08:43 PM   #94
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Tam,

The last time a large department/agency adopted the P7 (early 80's) the P7 was competitive with other designs, price-wise. It was actually cheaper than the Beretta and Sig during the early, early 80's. So, no "cheap" shots please.
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Old August 19, 2002, 11:48 PM   #95
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Never suggested that H-Ks blow-up more than Glocks, but I strongly state that no one ( no one meaning web surfers and gun nuts like the folks here) has the data showing that one brand of pistol is more prone to kabooms than another. The only data that would be meaningful is number of kabooms per X number of pistols(choose your own X whether it be 1,000 or 100,000). The only people with this kind of data may be manufacturers and/or gov't agencies.

You may personally like one brand of pistol over another but that's your preference, it doesn't mean that your favorite is better.
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Old August 20, 2002, 12:25 PM   #96
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Platt was hit at least twice in the chest, one going through the arm first.

To get your facts straight on Miami, this is a good place to start:

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/11april86.html

"A perception that many have held the intervening years is that the eight FBI agents' marksmanship was gravely lacking. Not so, argues Dr. Anderson, and presents a persuasive brief that a number of FBI hits were good ones; they just happened to run up against two highly trained (military police, 101st Airborne and Rangers), well-practiced (approximately 750-1,500 rounds per week which they had purchased or robbed from several unfortunate civilians plinking in the Everglades), and extremely focussed individuals in Platt and Matix. The FBI fired a verified 70 rounds (possibly as many as 77 or 78) and delivered 18 wounds to the bad guys, firing at extremely hostile targets obscured by gunsmoke, considerable amounts of dust and debris from the crashing, careening cars, and the deep shadows of the trees beneath which their vehicle came to rest.

Among those wounds, McNeill hit Matix with that head shot plus a neck/chest shot early on in the fight; Dove delivered that difficult hit as Platt was wriggling from the passenger window of the Monte Carlo, as well as two others; Risner (from 30 yards!) also made a lethal chest wound on Platt in mid-fight; and Mireles, after his shotgun blast had delayed Platt with four 00 foot wounds, had one-handedly put three rounds into Matix's head and two into Platt (one central nervous system, one scalp) all while himself gravely wounded."
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Old August 20, 2002, 12:34 PM   #97
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Brokenarrow,

The test I was referring to was the M9 trials, NOT the SOCOM trials. I can't remember what the 5th gun was, it could have been either the S&W or the Ruger (which at the time wasn't even close to ready). It could have also been a 9mm 1911. I honestly do not remember.
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Old August 20, 2002, 01:06 PM   #98
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Well I do, and you are _still_ wrong about the last 5 guns in the M9 trials!

The Llama, Star, a 9mm 1911, etc were _not_ among the last 5 guns in the M9 trials.

The last 5 9mm pistols tested when the _M9_ contract was awarded were the Beretta, SIG, S&W, HK P7 and Walther P88.

A 9mm 1911 was _never_ an entrant considered for use or tested in _any_ of the USAF 9mm/JSSAP M9 trials (there were several through the 70s and 80s). Conversion of 45s to 9mm was an idea that went nowhere; most of em were too old and the specs called for a pistol w second strike capability and more capacity by then too.

A 9mm 1911 (Colt Commander) was tested in 1955, and Colt submitted a 9mm General Officers Pistol M1969 for consideration in the late 60s, but the Army decided to stick w the 45 and production of the M15 General Officers Pistol (in 45, not 9mm, and not to be confused w the USAF M15 .38 revolver) began in 1972.

I threw in the SOCOM 45, M11, M10 (that's the one Ruger was in BTW) trials w the last M9 trial in the post to be a little more thorough, not to confuse ya even more. Sorry.
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Old August 20, 2002, 02:43 PM   #99
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"a 9mm 1911, etc were _not_ among the last 5 guns in the M9 trials."

That's why I said it MIGHT HAVE BEEN! I don't know for sure and to be honest I really don't care. 9mm guns don't interest me except in pocket guns (IE the Kahr series). Other than the Sig none of the guns tested interest me either.

The reason the 9mm conversions don't work is the 9mm is too weak to cycle a full-weight slide on a 1911. You need to weaken the recoil spring AND lighten the slide to make it work. I guess the Army wasn't willing to do this. After all the reason the M9 trials started was that the 1911s they had were worn out (after only 75 years of service mind you).
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Old August 20, 2002, 03:02 PM   #100
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Yeah, except they started looking at 9mm pistols in 1946, and testing em in 1955, when most of the 45s were only 10-15 yrs old.

And the 9mm conversions they were looking at worked just fine; they included all the parts necessary. It was just too late; by M9 time, there were not enough "serviceable" 45s to work with, and they wanted a newer design.
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