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Old August 15, 2002, 04:46 PM   #51
Glock_Racer
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I got FOUR reasons why Glock is FAR superior than the HK P7

There are four reasons for this...the four F's.

1. Its Fast
2. Furious
3. Fires all the time
4. and can be Fondled all day long without cutting yourself unlike some metal frames
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Old August 15, 2002, 04:48 PM   #52
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"Didn't the P7 lose the US pistol trials due to it's unorthodox manual-of-arms?"

It lost because it failed some of the tests in numerous trials from 1977 to 1985.

"I think the Glock lost under similar circumstances (lack of manual safety, which the Army wants on ALL weapons)."

The Glock was never in any US military 9mm pistol trials, and a manual safety was not a requirement in any of them since the 70s (they started looking at the 9 in the late 40s). Didn't ya notice the P226 and P228/M11 do not have one?

They would not have wasted the time and money testing a pistol that did not meet the basic requirements of the contract and could not be selected.

"I know the last 5 guns in the test were Sig, Beretta, a Llama, a Star and I think a Smith and Wesson (not sure on that one)."

The last pistol test was for the 45 SOCOM pistol. Colt and HK entered guns. HK got the contract.

The last 9mm test was for the compact 9mm, the M11. Beretta and SIG were the only guns entered. Both passed, SIG P228 got the contract.

The M10 tests were brought on by the Beretta/M9 slide failures. The Ruger, Beretta, S&W entered. Ruger failed, Beretta kept the M9 contract.

The final M9 trials were the Beretta, SIG, S&W, Walther, HK. Only the Beretta and SIG passed, Beretta got the contract.

There were numerous earlier tests. Gotta go way back for the pistolas you mentioned. Go back far enough ya can add the FN BHP, Fast Action BHP, Colt's SSP, High Standard T3, Colt T4, and Colt Commander, various S&Ws. All 9mm guns tested since 1946.
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Old August 15, 2002, 06:08 PM   #53
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Saying that the HK squeeze cocker never gets tiring to hold during an extended range session is like saying that the HK never gets overly hot as well (which some try to say). Better check that white substance on your nose pal...it ain't baking soda!
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Old August 15, 2002, 06:28 PM   #54
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The last word on what gun is better (from the guru on high).

What is better about the Glock:

1. Capacity, capacity, capacity.
2. Corrosion resistance/easy maintence
3. Cheap
4. Lightweight

What is better about the P7Mx

Everything else


And the winner is: P7M8

P.S. The P7 requires no more force to hold than any other pistol. Further, I'm not sure why you would hold it all day with the cocking lever depressed anyway? A lot of novices will keep their grip extra-tight because they think they have to--just loosen up.

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Old August 15, 2002, 07:59 PM   #55
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Which P7 / Glock

are we comparing here? As with Glock, the P7 is / was produced in various iterations, and I am assuming that it is the P7M8 or PSP that is being compared to Glock pistols in general.

However, in the case of the P7M10 vs. the Glock competition, the P7M10 wins hands down. Pistol for pistol, caliber for caliber, it's the beefiest porkchop in the contest. Advantage: P7M10 - if ya run out of ammo, ya can always use it for a club.

BTW, in regards to lunde's collection, and the reasons behind it... I can sum it up like this: "He has what he has BECAUSE HE CAN!" (Thanks again, Ken, for the summer shoot out - maybe we can make it an annual event?)
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Old August 15, 2002, 09:54 PM   #56
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Heck I like them both.
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Old August 16, 2002, 01:22 AM   #57
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Oh, I don't know. I would pick a weapon from a country that has actually won a war.

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Old August 16, 2002, 04:40 AM   #58
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What is "everything else"? Ease of maintenance? No way! Accuracy? Maybe in some examples. "It is no harder to hold the squeeze cocker than anything else"? What else has a squeeze cocker? If you are saying that the squeeze cocker is no harder to hold than a Glock, Browning etc... without one then sorry but I have owned a NIB HKP7 and I know better. I have been through two different handgun training courses and one student in each course used a HKP7. Neither HK made it thru the course. One went to the locker room due to feed problems (owner said he felt it was a bad mag) and the other had a broken part of some type (owner was way down the firing line from me so I don't know the details but he finished the course with a Glock). By the way these were the only two handguns that failed during the courses! Coincidence? Maybe. Both these HK owners are members here at TFL by the way.
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Old August 16, 2002, 09:56 AM   #59
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Kahr Carrier,

That kinda rules both pistols out doesn't it?
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Old August 16, 2002, 10:42 AM   #60
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I know a guy who went through an advanced course given by the feds. His Ruger P90 and Mini-14 were the only guns that did not choke at least once during the whole course. ALL the Berettas, SIG, Glocks, Colts, Bushmasters, Armalites, etc went down at least once. Ya never know?
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Old August 16, 2002, 10:49 AM   #61
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Tamara, my criteria for selecting a handgun is based on what runs the best at competitive shooting matches. You need to count the number of Glocks in Production, Limited and Limited 10 in USPSA. In IDPA out here, Glocks and 1911's are about the same.
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Old August 16, 2002, 01:39 PM   #62
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Two more S's

'Spensive

Sparse on ammo.

Love 'em anyway.
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Old August 16, 2002, 02:54 PM   #63
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The Real story on P7 vs Glock

P7 Advantages

P7 is the most reliable gun I've ever seen. It's the only gun I own that has NEVER jammed. EVER.

P7 has a better trigger since the safety isn't in the trigger. Glocks might as well be double action only.

P7 is more compact, better for CCW stuff.

P7 has a stronger steel frame.

P7 has a doubly redundant extraction system (see reliability above).

P7 Disadvatages:

You can't fire super high pressure ammo with thin brass, since the brass fire forms to the grooves in the chamber. This was a problem with glaser rounds.

You also can't shoot unjacketed ammo (not a big deal for a combat handgun).

Gas port is close to the back of the barrel and tends to "open up" after firing thousands of rounds. Eventually it will get to the point where it starts shaving off the jacket of your ammo and stuff copper filings into the gas tube.

lighter weight and slimmer size (at least for the M8) makes for more perceived recoil, despite the ingenious recoild reducing gas system.

Costs a lot more... but hey you get what you pay for. There's two kinds of gun owners: those who buy the best, and those who "settle" and compromise with second rate equipment.

And finally, it's true, you can't shoot more than 50 rounds quickly without burning your hands. HOWEVER, this is irrelevant for a real world combat handgun, where you will never put more than 50 rounds through your gun and stay alive. If you need more than 50 rounds of firepower, get a rifle. Handguns are for backup and concealed carry.

Winner: P7
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Old August 16, 2002, 04:40 PM   #64
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There are really only two reasons:

1.) It's a H&K.

2.) It's a P7.
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Old August 16, 2002, 06:01 PM   #65
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All guns can break. All guns could jam.

In my local IDPA matches, I've never seen one of the 3 P7's hiccup. I've seen (and had) Glocks jam, and I've seen broken trigger springs in Glocks, tying them up (another reason for the NY trigger).

Does that prove anything? Of course not. They're both far more reliable designs than something like a 1911.

As far as the grip pressure, both the P7 and the Glock require a firm grip to function properly. I don't know about shooting a P7 "all day" as I've never shot a single firearm for more than a couple of hours. But I'm sure someone could come up with a reasonable situation requiriung 8 hours of constant firing. I can't.

Another advantage of the P7 that I forgot to mention is that the blowback design avoids failures to extract, or double feeds. The cases are self extracting, unlike the Glock that requires an extractor to pull the case out with the recoiling slide. Probably another reason the P7 seems so reliable.

Since someone mentioned the P5, my brother has one. His test target is a 3 inch group. My P7 test target is a 1 inch group. My trigger is better too.

Even Jeff Cooper likes the P7.

The European and US agencies who did spend the money have been very happy with the P7. New Jersey has worn theirs down and doesn't like the cost for rebuilding. So they chose the S&W99. Then they sent that back and bought Sigs. The Sig is a good gun and while pricey, will still make the budget minders happy. They did not choose the Glock.
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Old August 16, 2002, 06:34 PM   #66
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That guns so ugly its makes me wana slap my mother!!! :barf:
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Old August 16, 2002, 08:49 PM   #67
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TomB,

I said the Glock was easier to maintain--so nothing new there.

Accuracy--I'd bet big $$ that 5 P7's picked at random will be more accurate than 5 Glocks picked at random. The P7 is just intrinsically darned accurate (fixed barrel and all).

Tom, it takes 1.5 lbs to keep the P7 cocked--that is it. In fact, most P7's require less after a little use. If you aren't shooting just release your grip--sheesh. Believe me, unless you like the taste of plastic you will hold your Glock with more than 1.5lbs of pressure while shooting.

As far as P7s breaking--take a look at GT or TFL and you will find endless accounts of every type of pistol imaginable breaking. I can tell you one thing, you won't hear about any P7's kbooming. . I would count this as a fairly big minus for the Glock--after all, it is hard to keep that ferocious grip on the P7 with a couple of your fingers blown off.

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Old August 17, 2002, 05:49 AM   #68
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"It takes 1.5lbs" to hold the cocker in but how many lbs to initially engage the cocker? Glocks require 0 lbs pressure to stay cocked. In my case I don't think it was the pressure to hold the cocker in but the fact that I didn't seem as comfortable shifting my hand position around any in between shots without feeling that I must decock and recock the weapon. Like I said I always wanted one so I purchased it, tried it and didn't like it. For the cost of 2+ NIB Glocks to me it wasn't worth it. Its been about 7 years since I owned mine so I don't remember the sqeeze cocker manual of arms in detail. I do remember it was a mess to clean and one had better clean it after each range session if one wants the gas system to operate correctly the next time. Its the Lincoln of handguns if one wants to show it but would be one of the last handguns that I would want to use in a defensive situation. In competition it may be great but I have never seen one used at all. Glocks in competition...well everyone knows the story there. To those that like the HKP7 I say enjoy and I am happy for you. For those of us that don't that doesn't mean we must be novices or on crack. Most here know that isn't the case and now that school has restarted....well.
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Old August 17, 2002, 09:35 AM   #69
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A few things...

The P7 is a very good gun for many good reasons, but it is not the best for most folks for many good reasons too.

The P7 is expensive to make and sell, the biggest reason it's popularity has been limited. Next biggest reason is the 13 shot model feels like a brick in the hand. As far as the US market, the 40 model just doesn't cut it; that cartridge needs a bigger gun in that platform, not just a way too big slide that looks like Moby Bang, the Black Whale.

Watch a whole lotta people who are basic cops/military train with em and ya find out that "little bit" of pressure needed to keep em cocked is often too much under pressure and/or from odd positions, etc. NJSP had more officers ND and shoot themselves with their own pistols per capita than any organization I can think of w any other gun in the same amount of time too. A much better gun for real experts than real folks IMO.

It is a very good gun, but it has not been the top performer in several military trials around the world when it has gone head to head w Beretta, SIG, Glock, FN, CZ, Walther. Different strokes for different folks have declared all of them King of the Hill in turn, but the P7 has won the fewest. No way can it be declared most accurate, most reliable, etc; just hasn't proved it often enough, certainly less than the others. Of course, YMMV, but it hasn't for most so far.

The Glock is double action only (DAO), according to the folks whose definition counts, the feds (FBI, DEA, INS/BP, BATF). Pulling the trigger performs a double action; the partially cocked striker is 1) fully cocked and then 2) released.

In some documents the feds now refer to "SFA" or Striker Fired Action since many of these guns are functionally (from the user viewpoint) identical while technically/mechanically different.

U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs National Institute of Justice Equipment Performance Report: 1999 Autoloading Pistols May 2000 NCJ 180751:

Striker fire action: A pistol design that employs an internal striker mechanism to detonate the primer. In operation, the pistol is normally in a partially cocked condition. Pulling the trigger completes cocking the action, and then releases the striker mechanism to fire the pistol.

Even that definition may need tweaking?

The Glock is DAO, the XD is SAO (Single Action Only), but both are striker fired that pretty much feel/work the same for the shooter. The Walther P99 is DA/SA, the 990 DAO, the 99QA SAO... all of em more alike than different for most.

IIRC, the newest version of the Glock NY triggers uses a coil spring, not a flat spring like the earlier models, so those seeeking refuge from that bogeyman will be disappointed. When I sent my Glocks in to get NY triggers in 1997, I got new NY triggers w the same coil springs, not the colored flat springs. Unless they have changed it back again... or have lots of the older ones left they are getting rid of? The newer coil spring arrangement "fixed" that problem a while back anyway. I have seen as much/more problems from Beretta and SIG trigger springs as Glock springs for the last several years; much ado about nothing much.
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Old August 17, 2002, 10:59 AM   #70
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Brokenarrow,

" NJSP had more officers ND and shoot themselves with their own pistols per capita than any organization I can think of w any other gun in the same amount of time too. "

I would like to know where I can find data that corroborates this statement. I've noticed this, and claims that the Germans were having ND/AD problems more and more--but I've never seen the source. I would like to figure out if this is true or just internet "wisdom" that has snowballed.

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Old August 17, 2002, 11:10 AM   #71
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Well, I've owned both guns, and here are my views:

The P7M13 was the first handgun I ever owned. I REALLY liked it, right off the bat. I absolutely loved the squeeze-cocking mechanism. The squeeze-cocker is the ultimate for safety, combined with speed. Nothing else compares. If ya' ain't squeezin' that grip, that gun ain't gonna' fire, period, because the gun is in a totally decocked state. Sqeezing the grip is a natural movement, and lightning fast. My P7M13 was fast, accurate, cool looking, durable, and death-and-taxes reliable.

With quality factory jacketed ammo of 100 grains and up, a P7M13 is about as reliable as one can make a handgun, assuming it's for urban purposes. Even when the gas piston/chamber starts to get dirty, the gun will continue to run, grit and all, for thousands of rounds, possibly over 4,000 rounds--and up to 5,000 rounds--without a malfunction. This is provided it's kept with a modicum of lubrication.

My single favorite feature of the P7, besides the squeeze-cock, is the quick-removable firing pin assembly. It's one of the coolest features on any handgun ever, and hardly anyone ever talks about it. You can remove it by hand in seconds, and this procedure renders the gun totally inert. At the same time, it cannot be done by accident or by anyone who isn't intimately familiar with this feature.

All that said, P7M13's are pretty damn heavy when fully loaded with 14 rounds. They also heat up like crazy. If you go to the range and want to shoot over 100 rounds back to back, you'll have to lay the gun down and let it sit and cool off at least once. The gun will actually start really heating up around the 50-60 round mark, and sooner if you go rapid-fire.

What does this mean? It means the P7 is really intended for beating the other guy to the shot in a quick gunfight. It's probably not the best gun for protracted situations. It's also expensive and nice looking, which makes one want to baby it and worry about it. Oh, and the grip is a little large and blocky(but I have large enough hands for it, so it never really bothered me).

Now, my second handgun ever, and the type I still carry, is the Glock 19. It's a superior carry gun for me for several reasons. First, it's a good bit lighter fully loaded than the P7M13, while holding 2-6 more rounds at the same time(depending on which magazine I want to use). The multiple magazine options is nice in itself. I even have a reliable 33 round factory magazine option, if I choose to carry one as a back-up.

The polymer frame doesn't heat up in the South Florida weather or during multiple rapid-fire strings like the P7M13's steel frame. You can shoot the G19 all day, and never have to lay it down. The polymer is also not as susceptible to cold, so it's more comfortable to hold in cold environments as well.

My G19 functions reliably with Magsafe Agent Loads and other "safety" ammunition reliably, even though all these rounds are less than 100 grains. The G19's I've owned have been reliable pistols. Are they as death-and-taxes reliable as the P7M13? Perhaps not. But properly fed and maintained, they come pretty close.

The G19 is more comfortable to shoot, and it's bore axis is almost as low as the P7's. The polymer grip flexes and absorbs a good portion of the recoil forces.

I never have to worry about the G19 rusting on me. The tenifer finish as close to rust-proof as you're gonna' get, even in Miami humidity and salt air. The G19 is easier to maintain and repair. I can clean a G19 faster than I can a P7. In terms of repair, ALL G19 parts are cheaper and easier to install.

Now, this next point is worst-case-scenario type thinking, but so what? The Glock 19 is a more versatile and hardier gun under adverse combat conditions like mud, sand, extreme cold, salt water, and constant abuse. Am I ever going to have to use the gun in these types of conditions? I don't know. No one really does. Who knows where, someday, you may have to take your gun.

Finally, the G19 is just easier for me to carry. First, it's more comfortable to carry. Part of this is due to the lighter weight, and part is due to its more rounded edges compared to the P7. The polymer frame, being softer material than steel, might also contribute somehow to carrying comfort. Finally, you just don't have to baby it or worry about it like like you do the P7. If your G19 drops on the ground, you can just just pick it up and dust it off. A P7 hitting the ground will cause you significantly more grief.

And think about this: God forbid you ever have to shoot another human being in self-defense. The police WILL confiscate your weapon. God only knows how long they'll keep it and how they'll treat it. Which gun would you rather lose? Of course, the infinitely more important concern is dealing with the police and the district attorney(and staying out of jail)--but still.

Wow, I sure ended up writing a lot more than I had planned when I started! I guess I just wanted to be thorough.
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Old August 17, 2002, 11:18 AM   #72
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Have G-21, G-35 with aftermarket 3.5 pd. triggers and G-35 has aftermarket barrel. P7M8 is great carry gun, but small in my hands. I won't keep the Glocks by my bed, because the P7's provide more half-awake safety. I've yet to put my finger on the trigger at the wrong time, but I feel safer with the P7. My P7M10 is more comfortable to shoot than my G-35 and a bit more accurate, in my hands.. I think that the Glock is a great gun for the money, but we are really comparing guns that fall into two very different price ranges. Ultimately, the public decides and it looks like the Glocks will go on for years. I don't know about the P7 series. We will see.
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Old August 17, 2002, 11:27 AM   #73
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TomB,

"In my case I don't think it was the pressure to hold the cocker in but the fact that I didn't seem as comfortable shifting my hand position around any in between shots without feeling that I must decock and recock the weapon."

If you have very small hands this might be a problem. I have medium/small (no M13 for me!) and only my last three fingers move during the cocking of the weapon--no change in grip. But hey, if you aren't comfortable, you aren't comfortable.


"It takes 1.5lbs" to hold the cocker in but how many lbs to initially engage the cocker? Glocks require 0 lbs pressure to stay cocked."

Hey, if I was a Glocker I would insist on lecturing you on the mechanics of the Glock here--it actually requires the application of several pounds of force everytime you cock the weapon--it is only finished cocking when you pull the trigger. But I agree,for all practical purposes, the Glock is always cocked. To replicate this state of affairs in the P7 just tape down the squeeze cocker and "keep finger off trigger no boom"--as the Glock intelligentisia often say.

"Like I said I always wanted one so I purchased it, tried it and didn't like it."

Blasphemy

"For the cost of 2+ NIB Glocks to me it wasn't worth it."


I don't think a Glock is worth 1/16the price of a P7. IMHO


"I do remember it was a mess to clean and one had better clean it after each range session if one wants the gas system to operate correctly the next time."

If you shoot 400-500 rounds per session, you need to do the ol' brush and scrape--it's no lie (and a trip to the burn unit). Just follow the instructions on the Glock and the P7 and you will be fine. I have to admit, if you want a gun that you can store in your fish tank full of saltwater and dog poo you are going to want the Glock. Incidentally, that is probably where I would store mine if I still had one.

"Its the Lincoln of handguns"

Well, as long as we are making car analogies, I have one for you. The Glock is the Pinto. It is was one of the best selling cars of the 70's but had a tendency to splode'.

GHB
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Old August 17, 2002, 01:31 PM   #74
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Well the Glock maybe a pinto but it's sales are soaring and the manufacture of the P7 is about to be dicontinued by HK. So take that for what its worth.
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Old August 17, 2002, 01:56 PM   #75
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Classical music and real Rock and Roll have been all but discontinued--the sales of Boy Band albums and Hip Hop are soaring--take that for what it's worth.
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