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Old August 14, 2002, 09:16 PM   #26
Tamara
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Greg Bell,

As an aside, Glocks have the same "loaded chamber indicator" (ie 'raised extractor') that P7's do; it takes a while to learn to discern the positions visually, but they're easy to differentiate between with a swipe of the trigger figger pad over the extractor(flush=empty, raised=loaded). It's my understanding that among this year's changes on the Glock will be a little red spot of paint atop the extractor, a la the Walther P-99 and Beretta 92, to make accurate visual determination easier.
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Old August 14, 2002, 09:38 PM   #27
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Interesting thread.

Here's all I know about the P7. There's a nice used one in the display case at the local gunshop. The price: $950.

Sorry. My wife accepted my spending $519 on a Glock 27 a couple of months ago. She was okay with the $600+ that my two-tone P228 cost. But there's no way she'd be okay with my spending nearly a thousand bucks on one 9mm pistol--and a used one at that. Until we win the lottery, I'm inclined to agree with her. For me, comparing the P7 with other guns boils down to an issue of domestic tranquility. For that matter, I doubt if there are a lot of P210's in my future, either.

YMMV.
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Old August 14, 2002, 11:01 PM   #28
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Tam,

Yeah, but you have to admit that the P7's chamber loaded indicator is more useful. There is no doubt whatsoever with the P7Mx. The Mx can be checked by touch or sight much more easily(the funny thing is that I never trust it anyway. --I always look for the brass). I remember my USPs' chamber loaded indicators were like the Glock will be with the upcoming change--and I didn't find it usefull at all. Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the P7's little extra touches.

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Old August 14, 2002, 11:07 PM   #29
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I'll go out on a limb and say this is a really stupid topic. I might as well compare a Glock 20 to my BCP Delta Elite or a CZ-75B to my SIG P210-DK/M49. I hear Corvettes are faster than Civics too...
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Old August 14, 2002, 11:18 PM   #30
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Well CastleBravo...

I don't recall ever calling any of your topics stupid, but I will make a note to do so in the future.

The point of this thread was to compare two different striker fired pistols. I said why I liked the P7 and have sat back and read others opinions. I can think of no two guns better to compare than these two because these are two striker fired pistols that have cult like followings. Sure...one is rather cheap, and one is rather expensive. But I don't see what that has to do with quality, design, and features. As someone already pointed out, this has been a very civil and mature discussion. Let's keep it that way and avoid the name calling, shall we?
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Old August 14, 2002, 11:23 PM   #31
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<------------owner of five 1911's, laughing at Euro gun owners calling each other's guns ugly

<ducking>

I have shot both - it's been a few years since I shot the P7, but I was impressed with the accuracy. Glocks? Well, they're reliable.

The P7 is arguably the fastest pistol to draw and fire. The squeeze cocking mechanism gives it safety, a pretty good trigger, and a bit of eccentric charm. It will be a classic 50 years from now.

Glocks need a thumb safety.

<ducking and running>

If the P7 was $600 I'd probably own one. As much as I like the gun, I'd probably go for a 9mm Glock instead.

As it is, I'll probably buy either a BHP or a .38 Super 1911 next.
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Old August 14, 2002, 11:37 PM   #32
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Sundance,

Quote:
Sure...one is rather cheap, and one is rather expensive. But I don't see what that has to do with quality, design, and features.
This is one of those cases where you can see where the price differential comes in: The P7 is not a cheap pistol to make.

A Mazda Miata and a BMW M Roadster are both pretty fun cars to toss down a twisty road, but there's no mistaking which one has more "quality, design, and features", and the astronomical price tag to go with them. They'll both mess your hair up and put a smile on your face, though.
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Old August 15, 2002, 12:16 AM   #33
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rock_jock, you wrote:
Quote:
Seriously, why do have so many copies of the same guns? I really like variety in my collection (which I used to think was rather impressive, but not anymore).
Huh? Well, there's quite a few models of HK P7s and Glocks. I do have spares. I generally get spares of my favorites. Why? Dunno. Seems like a good idea.
New_comer, you wrote:
Quote:
I see the pics coming...
Unfortunately, I have never taken a single picture of my entire Glock collection. I have only taken a pic of four of my six HK P7s (the single-stack ones). Well, here it is, magazines and all:
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Old August 15, 2002, 09:35 AM   #34
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Quote:
Sure...one is rather cheap, and one is rather expensive. But I don't see what that has to do with quality, design, and features.
If you can't figure out the concept of "you get what you pay for," then I guess this topic would seem perfectly sensible.
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Old August 15, 2002, 09:45 AM   #35
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Ummm... Dr. Lunde,



Well...., since you've got only two hands...




And can't fire all 6 of your P7's all at the same time...




Ummm, .... could I... ahhh...ummm....




HAVE TWO OF THOSE?!!



Well? CAN I ?! Huh, CAN I?!! (me drooling...)
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Old August 15, 2002, 10:27 AM   #36
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It _is_ a good gun, but...

Even the German cops/military didn't/don't like it best.

Beretta beat the PSP/P7 in the USAF pistol trials they did in the 70s, the Beretta and SIG beat it in the JSSAP trials of the 80s, the NJ and UT state police found better pistols in the 90s and 00s too.

In steel I prefer 1911, BHP, CZ to the P7. I prefer polymer to steel, and the HS/XD, Walther/S&W 99, CZ100, USP to the Glock, so there!
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Old August 15, 2002, 10:32 AM   #37
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How about reliability, reliability, reliability. How many P7's have you seen in a USPSA match? How many have you seen in IDPA match? Glocks are cheap and they run good for a really long time.
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Old August 15, 2002, 10:39 AM   #38
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P7's and Glock's...

Blond or Brunette? Maybe pick up a Detonics so you can have a Redhead as well?

Have them both, love them both.
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Old August 15, 2002, 10:49 AM   #39
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Blondes, brunettes, redheads, 9 minimeter, 45 ACP, 357 SIG, 40 S&W... they all sound the same (OK, close enough for me) in the dark?
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Old August 15, 2002, 12:23 PM   #40
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Quote:
By Sundance:
The HK P7 is Safe.
Really?
Then why have there been so many (fatal) accidents with P7s/PSPs in the hands of German police officers?

Ok, maybe it's because of this:
Earlier this year I saw a fellow shooter with a P7 on our range and before we exchanged guns for test firing, I asked him whether it was true that a P7 will shoot when you first pull the trigger and then squeeze the cocker. "Naa, can't be!" he said, inserted a mag, squeezed the cocker, released it, pulled the trigger, squeezed the co...BANG. He was more surprised then I was. I wonder how many P7 owners know this "special feature."
Well, my Glock will shoot when I pull the trigger - and only when I pull the trigger.
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Old August 15, 2002, 01:12 PM   #41
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T.Stahl,

Quote:
I wonder how many P7 owners know this "special feature."
All of them who've read the owner's manual.
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Old August 15, 2002, 01:27 PM   #42
juliet charley
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Quote:
a P7 will shoot when you first pull the trigger and then squeeze the cocker.
Quote:
Well, my Glock will shoot when I pull the trigger - and only when I pull the trigger.
You have to pull the trigger of the P7
You have to pull the trigger of the Glock.
If you pull the trigger, they shoot.
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Old August 15, 2002, 02:12 PM   #43
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Didn't the P7 lose the US pistol trials due to it's unorthodox manual-of-arms?

I think the Glock lost under similar circumstances (lack of manual safety, which the Army wants on ALL weapons).

I know the last 5 guns in the test were Sig, Beretta, a Llama, a Star and I think a Smith and Wesson (not sure on that one).

I've never shot either a Glock or a P7. Don't know which is better.

It may also be worth considering the context in which you are comparing the guns. Just because one gun is better for carry in an urban environment doesn't mean it will be better in an environment such as the jungle or a desert.

JMBs original 1911 (with the rattles) was one of the best in the world at taking grunge and continuing to work. The latest versions from Kimber, Springfield, Wilson, Les Baer etc. can't do that because they are made too tight.

In an urban setting where you don't have that external grunge but you have to worry more about things like lawsuits and ease of operation with minimal training, something like a DAO Sig-Sauer may be better suited.

Just my $.02 worth. Sorry, no refunds.
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Old August 15, 2002, 02:21 PM   #44
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Don't forget the three H's of the HKP7 - HOT - HEAVY - HANDTIRED from holding in the squeeze cocker !
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Old August 15, 2002, 03:02 PM   #45
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It is my understanding that the P7M13 lost because of the weak corrosion resistance. Other than that, the gun ran flawlessly and was one of the finalists before being dropped to an angry German response.

Lunde always makes us jealous with his pics. I especially love the look of his P7 with brushed flats! The good Dr. was kind enough to take a pic of one of his hard-chromed P7s so that I could use it as my Avatar on SIGForum. Alas, my personal P7M8 is just plain Jane blued...

I've owned 4 P7s and have thought the world of every one of them. Sold the two M13s because they were to fat for my small hands, and the refurb 'cause I didn't need two M8s.

And to the person who touted "reliability, reliability, reliability" and IPSC/IDPA matches. The P7 is one of the most reliable designs out there because of the fixed barrel and lack of feed ramp. I've never had a failure with a P7. They are just kind of excentric, which is the main reason they are such a novelty at the range, much less at an abusive pistol match...
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Old August 15, 2002, 03:26 PM   #46
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Funny how...

...more than one poster in this thread has said "I own them both; what's all the fuss about?".

lunde, rennaissancemann, thanks.
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Old August 15, 2002, 03:29 PM   #47
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Quote:
All of them who've read the owner's manual.
Ok, then it appears that the only P7 owner I met IRL hasn't read the manual.

I don't think the P7 is a bad gun.
I just think it's a gun that requires a lot of attention and a lot of training. More training than our police officers get (120-180rds/year).
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Old August 15, 2002, 03:31 PM   #48
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9x45,

Quote:
How about reliability, reliability, reliability. How many P7's have you seen in a USPSA match? How many have you seen in IDPA match? Glocks are cheap and they run good for a really long time.
Why shoot the bejabbers out of your $1200 wunderpistole, when a $450-$500 Glock is perfectly adequate for the job? Don't see many accurate and "reliable, reliable, reliable" SIG P-210's at matches, either. If there's one pistol on the planet more feed reliable than a 9mm Glock, the fixed-barrel P7 would be it.

If "how many you've seen at USPSA matches" was your criteria for choosing a pistol, you should sell those Glocks and buy some 1911's.
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Old August 15, 2002, 04:16 PM   #49
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Clackety clack, don't talk back

Sorry about the bad pun. Never owned this HK pistol but had a polce pal whose dept. issued P7's at one time. He said: 1) Manual of arms was diff. enough from his other guns that it messed up his recreational shooting. 2) The squeezer was LOUD when doing a search in the dark, like in a store or warehouse I guess--C-L-A-C-K is his description. 3) squeezer was tiring to hold in for any amt. of time. 4) Gas system made them kinda ammo-specific. I have shot a couple of them myself, low axis and grip angle were GOOD for me. Thanx for listening.
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Old August 15, 2002, 04:33 PM   #50
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Well, I just have to throw in my P7 opinion:

The BEST manual of arms invented is on the P7. A single lever, cocks, decocks, releases the slide and acts as a drop safety. And it's all ambidextrous.

The only shooters that require "special training" are the ones who are un-learning old habits.

The P7 avoids all the following classic pistol problems:

1. Crunch and tick. No heavy first shot or transition ala DA/SA.
2. Light trigger/no safety accidental discharges ala Glock.
3. Manual safety fumbling. Big ambi lever, not small thumb switch ala BHP and 1911.
4. Heavy trigger blues ala DAO.

And it does all that in a smaller, more accurate, completely ambidextrous and reliable package.

It is not necessarily a perfect choice for nasty combat conditions, sand and salt water could be a problem. Of course, sand and the M9 seem to be a problem, too.

The Glock is a fantastic $350 mass issue pistol. It gets questionable what you're getting for $600, though.

As an aside, I would never base too much on the US military weapon selection process. Let's look at their track record:

1. Select fire M-14 instead of the FAL or AR-10
2. M-60 instead of just about anything else
3. M-16 instead of AR-18 or Stoner 63 rifle
They haven't really picked a winner since the M1 Carbine

PS: You're on crack if you think the cocking lever is hard to hold in. It takes a pound to hold and can be accomplished with your pinky.
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