Cliques in the Gun Community?

Guyon · August 7, 2002, 04:19 PM

I despise cliques in the RKBA community. Yet I keep running into new ones all the time. I suppose it's idealistic and even commendable to think that all shooters (and hunters) will look out for each other, but that just ain't the case.

I just bought my first muzzleloader--an inline. I was happy to get it and begin learning about a new facet of shooting. Maybe it will lead to a sidelock on down the road, but right now, all I have is the inline. After posting in blackpowder and reviewing some old threads, I find that I and my like (the horrid, "cheating" inliners) are vilified by many traditionalists in the blackpowder field. Oh well...

Infighting is only going to hurt us, folks. Next time you have the urge to look down your nose at a fellow shooter because of his or her gun of choice, take a minute and think about the larger picture.

Blackhawk · August 7, 2002, 04:49 PM

There are cliques in ANY community.

Always have been.

Always will be.

People are too insecure not to be attracted to cliques.

Libertarian · August 7, 2002, 05:01 PM

The worst of the cliques in our community is the O/U shotgun clique because of their numbers and (usual) wealth. The ones that I have had interaction with are stauchly anti-handgun and black rifle. They also believe that their chosen hobbies of trap, skeet, bird hunting are immune from government interferance and bans.

They will probably be the last effected (along with muzzle loaders) but they will eventually be effected after the rest of us fall. (Look to UK and Australia for this.)

They are usually the group that HCI/VPC points to when they say that "most sportsmen do not mind reasonable gun control."

What other clique has caused the rest of us so much greif?

Calamity Jane · August 7, 2002, 06:35 PM

I have never encountered a clique-free community. Cliqueishness, unfortunately, seems to be a part of human nature, albeit, IMHO, an unsavory one.

But I agree, any attempts by the various factions within the RKBA community to minimize cliquish tendencies will help our cause greatly.

Riphalman · August 7, 2002, 07:20 PM

Yes, this is a very unfortunate fact even in shooting circles. I was shocked and disheartened to find this when I went to my first big IPSC match in southern Indiana many years ago. I went in there thinking I was part of some large brotherhood of shooters and expected to be welcomed as part of the clan. What a disappointment when I found that most of the top competitors were way too important to be bothered by mere mortals. These were people I had idolized for years and suddenly I saw that they were nothing more than the "country club" set. It took me a while to digest that one.

KSFreeman · August 7, 2002, 07:33 PM

I tried to join a gun culture clique, but my application was denied. It seems they have standards.

hansolo · August 7, 2002, 09:23 PM

I remember in High School being warned that,as a "known surfer",
I better not buy a motorcycle or the bikers would thump me. I worked hard and bought my first motorcycle. I was warned that I better cut my hair short if I wanted to make the sports teams(this was mid-sixties). I grew it shoulder length and was "asked not to return" the following semester. I became captain of the swim team at my next school while continuing Surfing and riding my motorcycle. I got into shooting and my "intellectual" friends said that wasn't acceptable behavior. I bought more guns. I do what I want as long is it doesn't break any laws, makes me happy, and I can afford it. Anybody (including O/U elitists)tells me what to do with my life, I remind them that this is the U.S.A. and, "Sit on it!"

P.S. I've encountered these types @ ranges. They think their sh*t
don't stink and handgunners are cretins...gotta big surprise, Bubba, the Golden Rule gonna GIT YA one day.

PATH · August 8, 2002, 12:27 AM

Libertarian you are spot on! I hate when those snobs with the reallly expensive shotguns look down their elitist noses. In one of the clubs I belong to the Preserve and O/U are the biggest pains in the posterior. I don't attend as many meetings at this club anymore because of these narrow minded folks. They yap on and on about nonsense.

Kharn · August 8, 2002, 07:54 AM

The one-box-a-year deer hunters are the second most annoying (after the O/U snobs). They constantly ask at the range "What can you hunt with that?" when I pull out new toys. Look, buddy, its my friggen money, I'll buy whatever I want, and if it doesnt fit your idea of a Bambi-Wunder-Blaster go home and cry to momma, because I dont care.

Kharn

BigG · August 8, 2002, 09:01 AM

Competition is at the very heart of American culture. Look at our emphasis on pro sports. Advertising tries to differentiate people, reward yourself, smoke a Marlboro. All of a sudden you have a Marlboro clique. We're better than the guys who smoke Winstons. And on and on...

Hemicuda · August 8, 2002, 09:02 AM

correct answer is "anything I can get a license for"

I got looks at my gun club when I showed up to sight in my SKS...

(with the 30 round detatchables, and 1000 rounds of Wolf ammo..)

there were a few that wouldn't even acknowledge it or me, but at the end of a couple hours, a dozen or so, of the people there had shot it...

When I told them that I had 1000 rounds, they about died... "that must be expensive" then I told them about the 2 dollar a box price...

that was when they started asking to shoot it, and handing me fivers for a mag full, (I didn't ask, but I did accept...) and blasting away...

they were even polite... and 2 or 3 even took the time to help clean the gun a bit when it was dirty... (and needed a cool down)

since then, I have seen a couple of them with SKS's, and AK's of their own...

that day was cool, because I ended up with the money to replace my ammo, and enough left over to pick up a package of stripper clips and a couple other minor accessories... AND a few people opened their mind and had a little fun...

**4V50 Gary** · August 8, 2002, 10:35 AM

Yep. Blackhawk said it. But, what do you think they meant when they said, "Celebrate Diversity!" Certainly not about race, is it? It's flintlock, cap, underhammer, mule's ear, in-line, rifled, smoothbore, combination, swivels, falling blocks, minie guns all have their place. If it takes inlines to bring the centerfire crowd into muzzleloading, so be it. Welcome aboard and if someone doesn't like your gun, tough on them (including myself).

Foxy · August 8, 2002, 10:48 AM

I can't help but notice a few cliques around here.

I'll happily say straight up that I am far more interested in self-loading military rifles, tactics, and other 'mall-ninja' type stuff. It's kind of funny to see someone ask, in the Rifle Forum, "What kind of military 7.62 rifle should I get?" and half the responses are split up between M14/G3/FAL, and half are split up between Rem700/ ... ?

Even in the people who like military automatic rifles, there's the group who looks back fondly at wood n' steel rifles of at least .30 caliber, while other people are quite happy with their high-tech, 5.56/5.45 plasic/aluminum wonders. (The handgunner's analogy would be the .45ACP 1911 lovers and the 9mm Glock Lovers).

Not as prevalent, but still present, is sort of either a 'snob' or at least, well-to-do group. Someone asks for an inexpensive handgun, and people are suggesting Sigs instead of Rugers. What's the best value for a 1911? Charles Daly, say some, Les Baer, say others.

Another sort of 'clique' involves those who believe that they are infailable when it comes to firearms safety, and those who believe that people are not perfect. I asked about an aftermarket manual safety on a Glock. "The only safety is the safety between your ears!" Well, yes, but I'd like to augument (not replace!) that. The ILS system on Springfield 1911's? Condition three on a 1911? All unnecessary!

The 'between your ears' group does seem to have a 'holier-than-thou' attitude towards that may be a bit stuffier, but a bit safer in their firearm preferences.

Guyon · August 8, 2002, 11:32 AM

Hemicuda, good on ya, man. That sounds like a fun day all around. I go to a public range (mostly because it's free) over at a WMA (Wildlife Management Area). There's all types out there--from hunters sighting in to AK/SKS/AR shooters blasting away. I even recall one .50 cannon out there. Heck, I shoot hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols, and my evil AK. I've even patterned my turkey gun at 30 yards and blasted slugs out of an 870 at 100. The diversity of firearms makes for interesting conversations, and people often come away a little more knowledgeable than when they arrived. One fellow even showed me the basics of handloading (with a hand press) after I expressed some interest.

Futo Inu · August 8, 2002, 11:41 AM

Dis-association/"clique-i-ness" due to non-gun-related-issues (like religion or whatever) or types of guns, etc. = bad thing, to be avoided.

However, OTOH, some issues warrant divisiveness in the RKBA community, IMO, for the purpose of ultimately helping the RKBA cause, by attempting to marginalize those who would injure the cause. For example, I will for one will not be best buds with those who contribute to the demise of our rights - the Ruger-buying and S&W-buying cliques. They should be debated with until they change their views, IMO. If they don't, well that's beyond our control. What is not beyond our control is TRYING, and try we must to kill these companies who are our enemies in sheep's clothing.

Guyon · August 8, 2002, 11:47 AM

Futo: You make a good point, and I think there is room for political debate within a political cause (RKBA). The cliques to which I object most strenuously simply have to do with personal choice, eg. the 1911 owner who sneers at a P97 shooter at a match. Or the Remington 700 crowd that belittles those brave enough to shoot a Savage. Often it's related to how much money the gun costs, but not always (eg. inlines vs. flintlocks).

Steve Smith · August 8, 2002, 03:20 PM

I like the "clique-i-ness" because it adds a good deal of interesting conversations. If we all agreed, we'd have nothing to talk about.

50 shooter · August 8, 2002, 03:49 PM

Try owning a .50! Go to the range and see how those types look at you. For some reason (I think to get us banned) these guys that shoot BR and rail guns always seem to set up next to or in the middle of us. As soon as we start shooting, the looks start coming!

Personally, I don't care what people shoot. If you can't handle the muzzle blast, get off the range. If you don't like a certain group of gun owners, get over it. All you do is add fuel for the anti's.

On the plus side, the owner of the range we go to said "if it's legal to shoot, it's always welcome here".

dfaugh · August 8, 2002, 06:32 PM

Unfortunately, this happens in most sports and activities...I've seen it in Dog training competition abd auto racing (you really race DRAG cars? what are you doing at a stock-car track?)...I just try to get along withe everyone, sometimes you can "break through", turn them a little but...I've done it

**Mike Irwin** · August 8, 2002, 06:48 PM

You guys want nasty cliques?

Try antiques and book dealers.

Sounds funny, but having been in that business for many years, you wouldn't believe how ugly some of the infighting can be.

trapshooter · August 9, 2002, 12:44 AM

Next time one of the dilletantes asks"What can you hunt with that?", here's what I say (depending on the tone of the question):

"Two-legged fox".

Kharn · August 9, 2002, 09:20 AM

My usual response is "Big Foot". They cant comment much anymore cause they are snickering and trying to tell their buddies.

Kharn

Steyr · August 9, 2002, 12:27 PM

The 'black rifles' major clique !And the 1911/IPSC'ers

Mikul · August 9, 2002, 12:42 PM

I used to hike with the Appalacian Mountain club on their various local hikes. This group is full of tree-hugging vegetarian lesbians, and they have cliques!

Those who eat chicken and fish are looked down on by the vegetarians who are looked down upon by the vegans.

The conservationists who advocate use of the land are looked down upon by those who think the woods should remain untouched and they're looked down upon by the people who feel we should be striving to cut the worlds population by 90% and they're all looked down upon by the people who think we should voluntarilty extinct ourselves.

The lesbians who still kinda like men are looked down upon by those who only date men and they're looked down upon by the group who won't even acknowledge that men exist.

I enjoy joining groups made up of cliques who look down on me. I'm never quite what they expect.

Guyon · August 10, 2002, 09:37 AM

Mikul, that is pure hilarity. Thanks for sharing.

August 7, 2002, 04:19 PM	#1
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	Cliques in the Gun Community? I despise cliques in the RKBA community. Yet I keep running into new ones all the time. I suppose it's idealistic and even commendable to think that all shooters (and hunters) will look out for each other, but that just ain't the case. I just bought my first muzzleloader--an inline. I was happy to get it and begin learning about a new facet of shooting. Maybe it will lead to a sidelock on down the road, but right now, all I have is the inline. After posting in blackpowder and reviewing some old threads, I find that I and my like (the horrid, "cheating" inliners) are vilified by many traditionalists in the blackpowder field. Oh well... Infighting is only going to hurt us, folks. Next time you have the urge to look down your nose at a fellow shooter because of his or her gun of choice, take a minute and think about the larger picture. __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 7, 2002, 05:01 PM	#3
Libertarian Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 1999 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 2,117	The worst of the cliques in our community is the O/U shotgun clique because of their numbers and (usual) wealth. The ones that I have had interaction with are stauchly anti-handgun and black rifle. They also believe that their chosen hobbies of trap, skeet, bird hunting are immune from government interferance and bans. They will probably be the last effected (along with muzzle loaders) but they will eventually be effected after the rest of us fall. (Look to UK and Australia for this.) They are usually the group that HCI/VPC points to when they say that "most sportsmen do not mind reasonable gun control." What other clique has caused the rest of us so much greif? __________________ "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." JFK My other favorite forum is The Armed Citizen My PGP key is 0x780B7C0A

August 7, 2002, 06:35 PM	#4
Calamity Jane Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2001 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 899	I have never encountered a clique-free community. Cliqueishness, unfortunately, seems to be a part of human nature, albeit, IMHO, an unsavory one. But I agree, any attempts by the various factions within the RKBA community to minimize cliquish tendencies will help our cause greatly. __________________ CJ “The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

August 7, 2002, 07:33 PM	#6
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,424	I tried to join a gun culture clique, but my application was denied. It seems they have standards. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

August 7, 2002, 09:23 PM	#7
hansolo Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2002 Location: Desert Hot Springs, CA Posts: 503	Cliques=High School Geeks I remember in High School being warned that,as a "known surfer", I better not buy a motorcycle or the bikers would thump me. I worked hard and bought my first motorcycle. I was warned that I better cut my hair short if I wanted to make the sports teams(this was mid-sixties). I grew it shoulder length and was "asked not to return" the following semester. I became captain of the swim team at my next school while continuing Surfing and riding my motorcycle. I got into shooting and my "intellectual" friends said that wasn't acceptable behavior. I bought more guns. I do what I want as long is it doesn't break any laws, makes me happy, and I can afford it. Anybody (including O/U elitists)tells me what to do with my life, I remind them that this is the U.S.A. and, "Sit on it!" P.S. I've encountered these types @ ranges. They think their sh*t don't stink and handgunners are cretins...gotta big surprise, Bubba, the Golden Rule gonna GIT YA one day. __________________ PROUD TFL ALUMNUS MOLON LABE!

August 7, 2002, 04:49 PM	#2
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,045	There are cliques in ANY community. Always have been. Always will be. People are too insecure not to be attracted to cliques.

August 7, 2002, 07:20 PM	#5
Riphalman Member Join Date: April 2, 2002 Location: Ft. Wayne, IN Posts: 52	Yes, this is a very unfortunate fact even in shooting circles. I was shocked and disheartened to find this when I went to my first big IPSC match in southern Indiana many years ago. I went in there thinking I was part of some large brotherhood of shooters and expected to be welcomed as part of the clan. What a disappointment when I found that most of the top competitors were way too important to be bothered by mere mortals. These were people I had idolized for years and suddenly I saw that they were nothing more than the "country club" set. It took me a while to digest that one.

August 8, 2002, 12:27 AM	#8
PATH Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 1999 Location: Rockland, NY Posts: 1,480	Libertarian you are spot on! I hate when those snobs with the reallly expensive shotguns look down their elitist noses. In one of the clubs I belong to the Preserve and O/U are the biggest pains in the posterior. I don't attend as many meetings at this club anymore because of these narrow minded folks. They yap on and on about nonsense. __________________ For sure it is an evil spite, and breaking to the heart, For Irishmen to watch a fight and not be taking part. -Robert Service 'How MacPherson Held The Floor'

August 8, 2002, 07:54 AM	#9
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	The one-box-a-year deer hunters are the second most annoying (after the O/U snobs). They constantly ask at the range "What can you hunt with that?" when I pull out new toys. Look, buddy, its my friggen money, I'll buy whatever I want, and if it doesnt fit your idea of a Bambi-Wunder-Blaster go home and cry to momma, because I dont care. Kharn

August 8, 2002, 09:01 AM	#10
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,260	Competition is at the very heart of American culture. Look at our emphasis on pro sports. Advertising tries to differentiate people, reward yourself, smoke a Marlboro. All of a sudden you have a Marlboro clique. We're better than the guys who smoke Winstons. And on and on... __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

August 8, 2002, 09:02 AM	#11
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	Hey, Kharn... correct answer is "anything I can get a license for" I got looks at my gun club when I showed up to sight in my SKS... (with the 30 round detatchables, and 1000 rounds of Wolf ammo..) there were a few that wouldn't even acknowledge it or me, but at the end of a couple hours, a dozen or so, of the people there had shot it... When I told them that I had 1000 rounds, they about died... "that must be expensive" then I told them about the 2 dollar a box price... that was when they started asking to shoot it, and handing me fivers for a mag full, (I didn't ask, but I did accept...) and blasting away... they were even polite... and 2 or 3 even took the time to help clean the gun a bit when it was dirty... (and needed a cool down) since then, I have seen a couple of them with SKS's, and AK's of their own... that day was cool, because I ended up with the money to replace my ammo, and enough left over to pick up a package of stripper clips and a couple other minor accessories... AND a few people opened their mind and had a little fun... __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

August 8, 2002, 10:35 AM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 15,424	Yep. Blackhawk said it. But, what do you think they meant when they said, "Celebrate Diversity!" Certainly not about race, is it? It's flintlock, cap, underhammer, mule's ear, in-line, rifled, smoothbore, combination, swivels, falling blocks, minie guns all have their place. If it takes inlines to bring the centerfire crowd into muzzleloading, so be it. Welcome aboard and if someone doesn't like your gun, tough on them (including myself). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 8, 2002, 10:48 AM	#13
Foxy Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 846	I can't help but notice a few cliques around here. I'll happily say straight up that I am far more interested in self-loading military rifles, tactics, and other 'mall-ninja' type stuff. It's kind of funny to see someone ask, in the Rifle Forum, "What kind of military 7.62 rifle should I get?" and half the responses are split up between M14/G3/FAL, and half are split up between Rem700/ ... ? Even in the people who like military automatic rifles, there's the group who looks back fondly at wood n' steel rifles of at least .30 caliber, while other people are quite happy with their high-tech, 5.56/5.45 plasic/aluminum wonders. (The handgunner's analogy would be the .45ACP 1911 lovers and the 9mm Glock Lovers). Not as prevalent, but still present, is sort of either a 'snob' or at least, well-to-do group. Someone asks for an inexpensive handgun, and people are suggesting Sigs instead of Rugers. What's the best value for a 1911? Charles Daly, say some, Les Baer, say others. Another sort of 'clique' involves those who believe that they are infailable when it comes to firearms safety, and those who believe that people are not perfect. I asked about an aftermarket manual safety on a Glock. "The only safety is the safety between your ears!" Well, yes, but I'd like to augument (not replace!) that. The ILS system on Springfield 1911's? Condition three on a 1911? All unnecessary! The 'between your ears' group does seem to have a 'holier-than-thou' attitude towards that may be a bit stuffier, but a bit safer in their firearm preferences.

August 8, 2002, 11:32 AM	#14
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	Hemicuda, good on ya, man. That sounds like a fun day all around. I go to a public range (mostly because it's free) over at a WMA (Wildlife Management Area). There's all types out there--from hunters sighting in to AK/SKS/AR shooters blasting away. I even recall one .50 cannon out there. Heck, I shoot hunting rifles, shotguns, pistols, and my evil AK. I've even patterned my turkey gun at 30 yards and blasted slugs out of an 870 at 100. The diversity of firearms makes for interesting conversations, and people often come away a little more knowledgeable than when they arrived. One fellow even showed me the basics of handloading (with a hand press) after I expressed some interest. __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 8, 2002, 11:41 AM	#15
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	Dis-association/"clique-i-ness" due to non-gun-related-issues (like religion or whatever) or types of guns, etc. = bad thing, to be avoided. However, OTOH, some issues warrant divisiveness in the RKBA community, IMO, for the purpose of ultimately helping the RKBA cause, by attempting to marginalize those who would injure the cause. For example, I will for one will not be best buds with those who contribute to the demise of our rights - the Ruger-buying and S&W-buying cliques. They should be debated with until they change their views, IMO. If they don't, well that's beyond our control. What is not beyond our control is TRYING, and try we must to kill these companies who are our enemies in sheep's clothing.

August 8, 2002, 11:47 AM	#16
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	Futo: You make a good point, and I think there is room for political debate within a political cause (RKBA). The cliques to which I object most strenuously simply have to do with personal choice, eg. the 1911 owner who sneers at a P97 shooter at a match. Or the Remington 700 crowd that belittles those brave enough to shoot a Savage. Often it's related to how much money the gun costs, but not always (eg. inlines vs. flintlocks). __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.

August 8, 2002, 03:20 PM	#17
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	I like the "clique-i-ness" because it adds a good deal of interesting conversations. If we all agreed, we'd have nothing to talk about. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

August 8, 2002, 03:49 PM	#18
50 shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: SoCal PRK Posts: 528	Try owning a .50! Go to the range and see how those types look at you. For some reason (I think to get us banned) these guys that shoot BR and rail guns always seem to set up next to or in the middle of us. As soon as we start shooting, the looks start coming! Personally, I don't care what people shoot. If you can't handle the muzzle blast, get off the range. If you don't like a certain group of gun owners, get over it. All you do is add fuel for the anti's. On the plus side, the owner of the range we go to said "if it's legal to shoot, it's always welcome here".

August 8, 2002, 06:32 PM	#19
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	Unfortunately, this happens in most sports and activities...I've seen it in Dog training competition abd auto racing (you really race DRAG cars? what are you doing at a stock-car track?)...I just try to get along withe everyone, sometimes you can "break through", turn them a little but...I've done it __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."

August 8, 2002, 06:48 PM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,141	You guys want nasty cliques? Try antiques and book dealers. Sounds funny, but having been in that business for many years, you wouldn't believe how ugly some of the infighting can be. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 9, 2002, 12:44 AM	#21
trapshooter Junior member Join Date: January 2, 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 902	Kharn, Next time one of the dilletantes asks"What can you hunt with that?", here's what I say (depending on the tone of the question): "Two-legged fox".

August 9, 2002, 09:20 AM	#22
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	My usual response is "Big Foot". They cant comment much anymore cause they are snickering and trying to tell their buddies. Kharn

August 9, 2002, 12:27 PM	#23
Steyr Member Join Date: July 10, 2001 Location: Oxford Mills,Ontario Posts: 23	cliques? The 'black rifles' major clique !And the 1911/IPSC'ers

August 9, 2002, 12:42 PM	#24
Mikul Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2000 Posts: 1,396	I used to hike with the Appalacian Mountain club on their various local hikes. This group is full of tree-hugging vegetarian lesbians, and they have cliques! Those who eat chicken and fish are looked down on by the vegetarians who are looked down upon by the vegans. The conservationists who advocate use of the land are looked down upon by those who think the woods should remain untouched and they're looked down upon by the people who feel we should be striving to cut the worlds population by 90% and they're all looked down upon by the people who think we should voluntarilty extinct ourselves. The lesbians who still kinda like men are looked down upon by those who only date men and they're looked down upon by the group who won't even acknowledge that men exist. I enjoy joining groups made up of cliques who look down on me. I'm never quite what they expect. __________________ There are two types of men: those with guns, and those at their mercy.

August 10, 2002, 09:37 AM	#25
Guyon Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2000 Location: Over the Hills and Through the Woods, Tennessee Posts: 1,207	Mikul, that is pure hilarity. Thanks for sharing. __________________ Gun control should just be about hitting your target.