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Old July 1, 1999, 11:03 PM   #1
Josh D
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What is a good scope for an AR? I would be firing out to 300 yds with the occasional 400-500 yard shot. Any good BDC scopes out there? This would be mounted on a flattop. I would prefer one that is under $250.00 I have heard that the Reflex is great, but I am wondering about the long distance range, it would probably be marginal at best.
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Old July 5, 1999, 03:09 PM   #2
Jeff White
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Josh,
I've got a 4x32 Trijicon ACOG. I think it's the best scope for an AR. Don't know where you'd find one in your price range though.

I've also got a 4x20 (made by a Japanese company and sold under the Colt name) that would be closer to your price range. The BDC is computed for 55 gr ammo out of a 20" barrel.

I've got no experience with the Marksmans Elite, so I can't really comment on how they work.

I've heard both good and bad things about the cheap ($29.95 - $49.95) Chinese copies of the Colt scope I mentioned earlier. The general consensus is that you either get a good one or a bad one, there isn't much consistancy to them.

I'd have to recommend the Colt scope for the application you mentioned. I think it's the only one in your price range that has a BDC.

I wouldn't recommend the red dot reflex scopes for long distance shooting. On many of them the dot is bigger then the target out past 300 meters.
HTH
Jeff
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Old July 5, 1999, 05:21 PM   #3
Josh D
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Thanks for the info.
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Old July 5, 1999, 08:01 PM   #4
Chief Paul
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I have the AMT "Professional" 5 X 33 scope with a bullet drop compensator, illumanated etched crosshairs and a range finder. It's fairly small, pretty rugged and light wieght. It mounts in 30 mm rings.

I like mine enough to keep it as my primary rifle scope on my AR flat top. The system works pretty well. I took a 3 foot tall target out into the high desert of California and placed it at random distances between 150 and 400 yards (that's a long walk in the heat ).

The range finder and compensator worked well enough to keep shots really tight in the vitals - concidering I was shooting out to 400 yards I could still group around the X ring.

It sells for about $230.
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Old July 5, 1999, 08:12 PM   #5
Josh D
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I think you are right on the money, Chief. I was thinking about getting one, and there were some guys on AR15.com(my home) talking about it. Might just have to get one.
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Old July 5, 1999, 08:34 PM   #6
ProfJava
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You can find the Trijicons and a whole bunch of other scopes and mounts for AR-15s at http://www.riflescopes.com
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Old July 5, 1999, 09:27 PM   #7
Kodiac
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The really depends on the shooting your going to do. A red dot gun sight works well for CQB duty... But if your going to be reaching out - a 4X scope is perfect. I have seen 3X9 variables - but those are rather long... and you really dont need that much scope on an AR unless your benching it for long range precision work - and in that case you would want a higher quality optic than those 50 buck Burris variables... A good solid 4X is about right for a carry AR, or a Trunk Gun AR.

Hmmm Just like that 4X scope for sell in the Gear and Accessory section!

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[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited July 05, 1999).]
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Old July 7, 1999, 08:47 PM   #8
Doc2be
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Cheaper than dirt is the only place I have found the AMT professional. Is there anywhere else that sells them?
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Old July 8, 1999, 12:01 AM   #9
4V50 Gary
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I have one of those rubber armored Tasco 3x9. Not the best choice, but it's close to what Colt use to put on their Delta Elite. If I had to do it again, I'd get an Aimpoint Comp M.

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Old July 8, 1999, 03:44 PM   #10
TaxPhd
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The terrain where you shoot has a big impact on this decision. Where I live in Georgia, there is almost nowhere that I can see past 100 yards, even in the winter with the leaves off the trees. Given this constraint, my AR wears an Aimpoint Comp ML XD on an Aimpoint Railgrabber mount. With a 3 min. dot, it won't block out a target, even at 300 yards. Up close (<100 yards), it is the fastest rifle sighting system I've ever used (non-tube sights, such as the C-more or Holosight are usually considered faster, but I was not as convinced of their reliability as with the Aimpoint. My IPSC race gun wears a C-more, but that pistol will not likely face the same abuse as my AR).

If your primary use for the rifle is 300-400, with little shooting taking place at less than that distance, by all means, put a regular scope on it. If you want to have the full range of use (0-400 yards), put a low power variable (like a 1.5 - 5) on the gun.

I don't think that a single sighting system exists that will be optimum for the engaging targets at anywhere from contact distance to 400 or 500 yards. With that said, I think that I have come close to the perfect system (for me).

As I said earlier, the Aimpoint Comp is the primary sight for my rifle. In addition, I have a 4-12 variable scope on an ARMS quick detach base. These two scopes detach and reattach with no loss of zero (yes, I have tested it extensively, and yes, it does work). The big scope is always in my kit, and always available. The scopes swap in less than one minute. While not perfect, this system allows me to effectively utilize the full range of my rifle.

If I was planning on doing a lot of shooting at greater than 300 yards, and on target bullet performance was a consideration (not just accuracy), an AR in .223 would not be my choice. Those problems are probably better handled by something in 30 caliber or larger.
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Old July 8, 1999, 10:25 PM   #11
Pthfndr
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I have to echo Taxphd's answer regarding the Aimpoint. I have what sounds to be the exact same setup on my Colt 6700 flat top. An Aimpoint for under 200 yards and a really good scope to "reach out and touch something". both on the same mounts he mentions. With the Aimpoint, once you get used to shooting with both eyes wide open, the speed of target aquisition is phenomenal. And with abosolutely no loss of field of view. No parallax problem. And there is no min or max distance from the tube for eye relief. Just put the dot on the target and pull the trigger. That's a big reason why the military is going to them for special ops groups.
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Old July 8, 1999, 10:54 PM   #12
Josh D
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You guys have me a little confused. Here is my situation. I will be coyote hunting, and about 99.9999% of the ones I see are out in the open, usually in the middle of a field or on the side of a field. I want to know what scope I need so I can get it now and be ready for this winter(thats when Y2K is too, just now thought of that). If I am walking around, I will use open sights. But for field shooting, I need a scope. I will probably not shoot past 300, but AR's are capable of 800+, cuz they shoot em' that far. Besides, I have never hit a target at 500, and the AR can do that. I don't want to have a gun that can perform, but no key to unlock it, know what I mean Vern? You wouldn't put 87 octane in a Porche, so why limit your AR to 250 or 300? Anyhow, I had a 3-9x40 Simmons on my old AR, but I sold it before I could try it out. Let me restate my first sentance. I AM TOTALLY FRIGGIN LOST!!!! One thing I do know is that .224 bullets drop a lot between 0 yards and 500 yards. If you are shooting between 100 and 500, isn't a BDC mandatory? A coyote is hard to hit long range, cuz you have from belly to back, and that ain't but about a foot. If you think that bullet drop dosen't matter, sight in your scope at 100 and shoot at a 500 yard target. Why don't you try to pee on that target while you're at it. It ain't gonna happen. Sorry for all the trouble, but will someone start over and give me the facts about my situation?
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Old July 9, 1999, 12:07 PM   #13
Jeff White
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Josh,
A BDC is not necessary to shoot the way you describe. You can "dial in" the holdover and hold dead on at any range with any scope. You just have to do some homework first.

Choose a scope that you like (power, field of view etc.) Look in the specifications for how much each click of elevation moves the point of impact and at what range. Now zero your scope for the range you will shoot at most often, say 100 yards for instructional purposes. Now get one of the online ballistics programs (there are several out there you can download for free, don't have any URLs here at the office though) and punch in your ammo data and barrel length. The program will give you a trajectory chart of the height above the point of aim at various ranges.

For example M193 ball (55gr) out of a 20" barrel drops 24 inches between 0 and 300 meters. All you have to do is take this data and figure out the number of clicks of elevation it will take to move your impact the right amount to hold dead on at the range different from your zero. Make up a little chart with the number of clicks on your scope it takes to hold dead on at various ranges. Put the chart on a 3x5 card, laminate it and tape to the stock of your rifle. Make a good estimation of your range, dial in your sight and then shoot. This is an abreviated/simplified explanation.

Different scopes use different methods for computing the bullet drop. Some like the Colt 3x20s and 4x20s just have range data un the upper turret and you just turn the turret to the range and hold dead on. The ACOGs and Springfield Armory scopes have different markings in the reticle for different ranges. The Leatherwood scopes use a cam that raises or lowers the rear of the scope against the mount. All of the factory BDC scopes are set up for one load out of one barrel length. For instance the standard 4x32 ACOG is calibrated for M855 (62gr) out of a 20" barrel. The TAO-1 NSN ACOG is calibrated for M855 out of a 14.5 M4 carbine barrel. The Colt scopes are calibrated for M193 (55gr) out of a 20" barrel. You buy different cams for different loads with the Leatherwood scopes. I haven't had a lot of experience with the Springfield, I'm not even sure that they have one for 5.56mm.

The most accurate way is to go to the range and work up your own data with your rifle and ammo, put it on the card and use as described above.

HTH
Jeff
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