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Old July 1, 2002, 12:36 PM   #1
D.W. Drang
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OC Comparison tests?

Is there a site which rates brands of OC sprays, and concisely explains the differances between the types (i.e. fog/stream/spray/foam) along with the pros and cons of each?
Failing that, does anyone know of a magazine which has run an article on the topic, preferably one which offers an inexpensive (or free!) reprint service.
TIA
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Old July 3, 2002, 04:16 AM   #2
Fred Hansen
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Pepper spray is excellent as a food condiment, but absolutely useless against a serious attack; as the now very dead King County Deputy Herzog found out last week. I hope that the people that told him that it had a legitimate use against an attacker burn in hell.
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Old July 3, 2002, 09:52 AM   #3
D.W. Drang
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nonbox: I'm looking for comparison tests, no endorsements.

JMB: I knew Rich Herzog slightly in the Army. The scum who let Matthews out of prison early, and his family, should all be locked up in the same cell as him, while he's awaiting that Long Walk.
BTW, does WA still use Old Sparky, or do we have something else? Listening to Christine Gregoire do her Janet Reno impression until you gnaw your own ears off, perhaps?
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Old July 4, 2002, 01:32 PM   #4
VictorLouis
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I'd like to see and answer to D.W.'s question

if there is any such published material.

I don't think anyone teaches that ANY chemical weapon is 100% effective. IIRC, mace doesn't phase 10%-15% of the population. However, it's my understanding that the OC should cause constriction of the airways, and involutary closure of the eyelids regardless of whether or not the assailant feels pain. Is that correct?
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Old July 4, 2002, 03:56 PM   #5
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JMB: I knew Rich Herzog slightly in the Army. The scum who let Matthews out of prison early, and his family, should all be locked up in the same cell as him, while he's awaiting that Long Walk.
Agreed.
Quote:
BTW, does WA still use Old Sparky, or do we have something else? Listening to Christine Gregoire do her Janet Reno impression until you gnaw your own ears off, perhaps?
We have two options (the choice is granted to the condemned) hanging and lethal injection.

Having the choice is what led to the Mitchell Rupe fiasco. Rupe opted for hanging after being convicted of shooting two bank clerks. During the interminable wait to whack his dumba$$, he managed to bloat himself to well over 400+ lbs. He then instructed his attorney to petition the court to have his hanging overturned on the grounds that his head would be torn from his body due to his vast bulk. The liberal judge that heard the case so admired Rupe for his brilliant effort to weasel out of his sentence, that he granted Rupe's motion for stay, on the grounds that it is "cruel and unusual" to subject a "person of size" to hanging.

The 9th Circuit court of appeals (Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional) refused to overturn the lower courts ruling by refusing to hear the case.
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However, it's my understanding that the OC should cause constriction of the airways, and involutary closure of the eyelids regardless of whether or not the assailant feels pain. Is that correct?
All of the eyewitnesses to Deputy Herzog's execution reported exactly the same thing. The OC spray was a direct hit into the face/mouth/eyes of the assailant, and that it had ZERO!!!! effect. Which is consistent with the aftermath which saw Deputy Herzog run for his life, trip and fall after being hit multiple times with bullets from his own duty gun, at which point the assailant stood over the fallen deputy and put three rounds straight into the back of his head. That sure is a whole lot of running with a constricted airway, and even more uncanny are the numerous direct hits on what was initially a running, and then prostrate target with eyes swollen shut.

To make the situation even more tragic and stupid, the officers that responded to arrest the perp employed pepper spray and tasers to ZERO!!!! effect. It took four deputies to eventually overwhelm the perp who was on crack at the time of his capture.

With the outrageous price of one dead deputy, and several thousand dollars worth of tasers and Bull$H*T OC Spray, I'm going to go waaaayyy out on a limb and say that a 29 %&$#ing cent bullet would have been cheaper.

Honest to God, I can barely take any of this BS anymore.
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"This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?"

Michael Moore

Last edited by Fred Hansen; July 5, 2002 at 04:16 AM.
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Old July 4, 2002, 04:08 PM   #6
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The Pac NW must be like S. Florida

The Libs are so entrenched in the political/legal system that cops fear lawsuits or prosecution for defending themselves more than their own demise. That's not only a shame, it's really disgraceful. Thankfully, here in AZ. they don't seem to have that monkey on their collective backs. One or two LE-related shootings seem to occur here monthly. And that's just the ones that make it to the press...

Anyhow, thanks for clarification on the OC. It appears that particular POS was not at all hindered by it. It's a shame the Deputy wasn't able to exercise the final lethal option.
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Old July 8, 2002, 01:19 PM   #7
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And with yet another instance of OC spray failing to stop a suspect, I wait to hear that local police agencies are giving up on that and on tasers, which also have a lousy track record locally...

Makes it hard to get up in front of a bunch of students in a Refuse To B A Victim class and teach the "Personal Protection Devices" seciton with a straight face.
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Old July 8, 2002, 01:24 PM   #8
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I believe Berkeley Kalifornia no longer issues OC, at least the Police Review Commisssion recommended it.

I'd bet that the criminal training system has wonderful practice techniques for countering OC. My brother claims that he would still be able to function (due to Marine Corps training) if hit with OC, never got a chance to try it on him...so I don't gnow if that's true.
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Old July 8, 2002, 03:09 PM   #9
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Unless your brother was an MP in the Corps, what he had experiance with was CS--NOT the same thing! It might be interesting to hear what happens at the next family reunion when you hit him in the face with some 10% Oleoresin Capsicum... (sp?)
(It's common for Marines and soldiers to develop a resistence to CS--I didn't think I had, until my last trip to the "gas chamber" before retiring, testing a new mask. Discovered the hard way that the new masks' filter canisters unscrew easily. Still managed to stand in chamber for ten minutes and walk out without anyone discovering that I was hurtin'...)
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Old July 8, 2002, 03:15 PM   #10
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Kinda what I figured, he was an Engineer (until he got drummed out on a medical).
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Old July 8, 2002, 06:42 PM   #11
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It doesn't evaluate different brands but here is a link evaluating the effectiveness of pepper spray in general. http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/162358.txt . I've been thru several instructor level courses and can say that in my opinion, Fox is the best but none of them are 100% against a motivated attacker. Pepper spray is merely another tool on the force continuum and can be used effectively in many circumstances where a more aggressive response isn't called for.
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Old July 9, 2002, 11:56 AM   #12
D.W. Drang
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Blunder
Thank you! It may not be exactly what I was looking for, but it's more than what I had! And considering that part of what I was planning on doing with it was passing around a summary or synopsis in Refuse To Be A Victim classes, a list that suggests that Brand X is best might get me accused of being a shill...

Wonder how we get Consumer Reports to do tests of OC...?
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Old July 11, 2002, 02:36 AM   #13
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I was certified as an OC instructor (Phase IV) while in the USMC.

The effectiveness of OC varies a great deal from person to person. Personally, I don't put much faith in it. It sounds great on paper and looks great from a PC perspective, but it's only useful in limited circumstances. It's most useful in a riot control situation ie to get crowds to disperse rather than using it to confront highly aggressive individuals.

With regards to effectiveness of brand x vs brand y, most of the differences are over percentage of OC and Scoville Heat Units. In the real world, this translates mostly to how long it takes to decon someone after they've been sprayed. I hear good things about Fox, but have no experience with that brand. Phase IV burns like hell for a long time, but I've seen the full specrum of responses from people who have been sprayed: from instant bloody nose and agony to practically zero effect. Like CS, you can build a tolerence to it, if not physically then psychologically ("I've been sprayed before and it wasn't so bad").

Stream is most useful in most situations, because you have some range to work with. Foam is good for situations where you don't want to contaminate a large area (ie indoors or in confined spaces) because discharging an OC stream indoors will make an entire room uncomfortable for a while due to the aerosolized residual OC. The downside of foam is that it's easy for a BG to wipe off their face and smear it on someone else, namely you. Foggers are for riot control.

Other differences are in the composition of the propellents and the actual mechanics of the units themselves. I know Phase IV is nonflammable and the unit can be discharged upside down if need be. Don't know about the others.

It's another tool in the tool box.

Semper Fidelis,
Tom
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Old July 11, 2002, 10:26 AM   #14
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(Sigh!) I yearn for the good ol' days.

Pre-Roosevelt days.

Teddy Roosevelt.

...

[Back on topic]

Unfortunately, some of you have a point. OC is not very effective on 20% of the population, one recent study in southern California indicated. That's 1 out of 5, or too many to risk ******* off.

To make matters worse, try spraying OC at an attacker who's up wind of you on a breezy day. See who gets 5.3 million SHUs in their face.

Save OC for the enchiladas.
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Old September 24, 2004, 01:15 AM   #15
Fred Hansen
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BTW, does WA still use Old Sparky, or do we have something else?
Not only do we not use Old Sparky, but we just got sentenced to keeping Richard Herzog's killer alive without possibility of parole. Unless we leave the country I guess. Otherwise I'm sure plenty of Fed .gov money will go toward keeping the slightly more spicy murderous filth comfy for the rest of its unnatural life.



How delightful.

Quote:
Listening to Christine Gregoire do her Janet Reno impression until you gnaw your own ears off, perhaps?
Soon we'll get to hear that vile socialist day in and day out as our governor, unless we can get Dino Rossi elected. From my keyboard to God's eyes. Please God, cut us a break.
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Old September 24, 2004, 09:12 AM   #16
JerryM
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It is true that under some circumstances with some people OC spray is not effective. It is TRAGIC what happened to Deputy Herzog.

However, that does not prove that OC spray has no use. I personally have not sprayed anyone, but I have some close friends and kin in LE. One a year or so ago had to spray three drunks to keep them from beating him. Each one went down immediately with one burst of pepper foam.

Another of my friends is a recently retired police chief. He said that his people had never had a person fail to be neutralized when sprayed. They use Punch II.

Others have had good success. It can be a useful tool, but is no substitute for a weapon.
I recently posted a question and got some good answers. If I can find the thread I will post it.

Jerry
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Old September 24, 2004, 09:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
However, that does not prove that OC spray has no use.
I've already conceded that it is perfectly good to use on food.
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"This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?"

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Old September 25, 2004, 09:51 AM   #18
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Fred,

OK, now here is your mission if you choose to accept it. Since OC spray is good for use on food, by your admission, put some on some burritos or enchiladas or other food, and report back how you liked it.

You can try both the foam and the spray, and see which has the better flavor.



Let us know soon as I have some old spray that my wife might use to make some burritos.

Jerry
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Old September 25, 2004, 10:48 AM   #19
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Here is a thread which has an excellent post by Copaup.
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92006

Jerry
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Old September 25, 2004, 11:09 AM   #20
Fred Hansen
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How is a security guard's situation in a hospital - in any way comparable to a street cop?

Bottom Line = Deputy Herzog IS DEAD! OC Spray turned out to be LESS THAN COMPLETELY USELESS!!!

Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Do you not understand the finality of death? Deputy Herzog was trained - and this is the important part - ORDERED to use a completely inappropriate non-weapon i effecting the attempted arrest of a homicidal psychotic, and it cost him his life.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the police that came to arrest Deputy Herzog's murderer didn't use lethal force in arresting him. They too nearly paid with their lives. Why are their lives less important than a scumbag crack-addict that I now must feed, clothe, and buy cable TV for, for the rest of my life?????????
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Old September 25, 2004, 12:43 PM   #21
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Fred, it is not difficult to comprehend what happened, however, I have several friends who are street officers who have had excellent success with OC spray. I do not know what Deputy Herzog used, but it obviously did not work.

I would submit that guns sometimes do not work.
But since I personally know several street cops who have used the OC spray with excellent results, I am not going to let that one instance convince me that it should never be used.
Think as you will, and if you do not have confidence in it do not use it. However the police will continue to use it, and I will continue to carry it. I hope I never have to use it.

A security guards work in a hospital with mental and drugged people, is at least as germane as a street cops. In fact the guard has more liklihood that the person can ward off the spray.

I would be interested to know how Deputy Herzog lost his gun. I am not asking that to criticize him, but it is important to know. It seems that mistakes were made if he lost his firearm to someone who he was apprehending. That does not excuse the murderer.

Again, you are a free moral agent, and do not have to use OC spray, but to say it is worth nothing except as food flavoring is nonsense.
Now since I do not desire to get into a flame war this is what I have to say, and you can do as you will.

Jerry
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Old September 25, 2004, 12:53 PM   #22
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There is no sure thing - not OC, not tasers, not bullets.
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Old September 25, 2004, 01:18 PM   #23
Fred Hansen
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There is no sure thing - not OC, not tasers, not bullets.
No, but bullets are by far and away a more sure stop for homicidal psychotics. I have heard of bullets killing homicidal maniacs. I've yet to hear of spices or TASERS killing them.
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"This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?"

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Old September 25, 2004, 02:24 PM   #24
David Blinder
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Why would a deputy use a less than lethal option for a deadly force situation? Training, orders from above, poor judgement? OC/tasers/etc. are for when a less than lethal response is called for or when depolyment early can prevent a situation from deteriorating further. They are not, nor ever should be, the answer to everything.
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