The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 29, 2002, 07:45 PM   #1
bernie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2000
Posts: 140
.30 165 gr. Sierra HPBT Gameking for Deer?

I am looking for a bullet that closely approximates the ballistics of a .30 168 gr. Sierra Matchking to deer hunt with. I am looking at the .30 165 gr. Sierra Gameking HPBT and the 165 gr. Ballistic Tip. Have any of you taken deer sized game with either of these bullets. Do you have any other suggestions keeping in mind that I want to be close to the 168 gr Matchking?
bernie is offline  
Old June 29, 2002, 08:07 PM   #2
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,046
I used the 165 Sierra HPBT for a few years; it didn't kill 'em any deader than the 150s that I went back to. It's certainly a very accurate critter, at least in my rifle. But definitely an effective bullet on deer, in my experience.

, Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old June 29, 2002, 10:55 PM   #3
H&H,hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2001
Location: Colorado
Posts: 504
I've seen some real good things with the 165 HPBT. Kills deer real dead.
__________________
Velocity is thrilling, But diameter does the real killing.
H&H,hunter is offline  
Old July 2, 2002, 09:06 AM   #4
gfrey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Fort Atkinson, WI USA
Posts: 143
Hi,

Used HPBT for some target shooting,

But I use the SPBT (165) on Deer.

Why? Well The guy I reload with has used the HPBT and SPBT and determined his handloads were SAME POI.

He shot one deer with the HPBT and got a dead deer with .308 in and out holes.

He doesn't get that with SPBT (Spitzer point) so he uses the SPBT for hunting. My rifle using his Handload recipe gets 3 shot groups at 100 yards under an inch, some touching. Good enough accuracy for me (Of course I have to do my part...).

I decided it works well enough for me. I also got the same POI with the HPBT, but I decided to just buy the SPBT. (Joe shoots more than I, so he can buy target and hunting bullets. I just buy the box of SPBT and when it is gone go buy another.)


Did the Dead deer notice what hit it? Probably not. Do you need the HPBT or SPBT? Try them both and see. I just use the SPBT in 165.

YMMV
Gfrey
gfrey is offline  
Old July 2, 2002, 05:02 PM   #5
bernie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2000
Posts: 140
gfrey: reading your post, I think that there may be some confusion. There are 3 Sierra bullets in that weight range for the .30 cal.: 168 gr. HPBT Matchking, 165 gr. Sp. Gameking, and a 165 gr. HPBT Gameking. When you said you were shooting the 165 HPBT at targets, did you mean the Matchking bullet? That is not intended to be used on game. I am specifically asking about the 165 gr. HPBT Gameking bullet. It has a wider, cross shaped hollowpoint on it, not the tiny hole that is on the Matchkings as a result of the manufacturing process. If anything, I was afraid the 165 hpbt Gameking might be a bit "explosive" and might not offer enough penetration. Thanks.
bernie is offline  
Old July 2, 2002, 05:47 PM   #6
Dr.Rob
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: July 28, 1999
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,454
We chose the 165 gr sierra spbt "game king" as the best soft point expanding bullet that most closely matched the 168 matchking. 15+ years later, still use it today. Good stuff.
__________________
You broke into the wrong Rec Room!
Dr.Rob is offline  
Old July 3, 2002, 09:23 AM   #7
gfrey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Fort Atkinson, WI USA
Posts: 143
Bernie,

I know there are 3 bulltets, the 168 MATCHKING hollow point (I have NEVER USED IT)

The 165 gr HPBT AND the 165 gr SPBT. (I HAVE used these two.)
Joe found in his tests that these two performed to same POI. His in the field experience with the 165 gr HPBT showed one dead deer with a .308 entry hole and a .308 exit hole. he relegated the 165gr HPBT to target only status, and he and I use 165gr SPBT on deer.


Hope that clears it up.


Gfrey
gfrey is offline  
Old July 3, 2002, 04:27 PM   #8
Johnny Guest
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: August 28, 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 4,116
Roger on the three bullets. - - -

To try and simplify the matter, I presume, Sierra terms their 165 Game Kings the 165 BTHP and the 165 SBT (Spitzer Boat Tail.) It has also been my experience that both shoot to the same point of aim. One might figure that the more pointy SBT MIGHT perform better at extreme ranges than the wider-open HPBT bullet, but I never tested them beyond 300 yards.

I know the 168 MATCHking BTHP has long been considered THE long range target load. As mentioned above, though, it is not intended for humane hunting use. The construction of the bullet does not lend itself to proper expansion. The hollow point is just a means of allowing for a perfect base. I have never shot it at game. In other threads, people have commented that THEY have killed game with this bullet. Okay--You can also kill game with FMJ bullets, if placed exactly right. So what? I want to kill a game animal as cleanly as possible, and this means with a sporting bullet.

I have no documentation for this but, I believe the 165 HPBT MAY be a bit more heavily constructed than the 165 SBT. I've killed quite a few Hill country white tails with this bullet but only one bear--400-lb Black--and a couple of good size wild hogs. I used a .30-06 Ruger M77, first with IMR 4064 powder, and then switched to a stoutish-but-not-max charge of IMR 4350. I dare say none of the animals knew the difference.

Good luch--
Johnny
__________________
MOLON LABE!
Amendment II ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Blog: Expert Witness
Johnny Guest is offline  
Old July 3, 2002, 05:44 PM   #9
bernie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2000
Posts: 140
gfrey, thanks for the input, the talk about targets is what made me ask the question. Like I said, I would have guessed the 165 gr HPBT would have been more expansive the the SPBT. Again, thanks for the input!
bernie is offline  
Old July 3, 2002, 08:51 PM   #10
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: May 2, 1999
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,602
Bernie, I have close friends who swear "at" and "by" the 165 HPBT. I suspect this bullet has a high velocity "floor" for expansion. That would account for the radical differences in opinions around here.

Didn't want to be the only one mentioning the 165 HPBT's lack of expansion. Especially as I have never shot a critter with one.
__________________
http://www.scfirearms.org/
Al Thompson is offline  
Old July 3, 2002, 09:58 PM   #11
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,046
At close range from an '06 the 165 HPBT can be devastating. I shot an 80-lb. dressed-weight doe from a tree stand at about 50 yards. I was holding for a neck shot, and she took a step just as I touched off. Angling down, the bullet went through the top of the right shoulder, under the spine and out the middle of the off shoulder.

Sorta like a Peckinpaugh movie. It blew out a big red gout of goop; the top of the leg bone and a bunch of stuff with it. Regardless, she reared, spun, and three-legged it for maybe 75 yards, leaving a foot-wide blood trail. Fist-sized exit wound.

I shot a little buck through the neck, and didn't realize how he was standing in the brush. The bullet went on into a ham and ruined it.

I've shot other deer with that load, but mostly out around 100 to 150 yards. Always an exit wound on deer to dressed weights of 120 pounds, from body shots, but less devastation.

That bullet is definitely a mean motor-scooter.

Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old July 8, 2002, 12:08 PM   #12
evad27
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2002
Location: Pa
Posts: 1
just use the matchking
evad27 is offline  
Old July 8, 2002, 02:40 PM   #13
Bottom Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 1998
Location: Elgin, Arizona
Posts: 871
I've used the 165 BTHP Gameking for 20+ years in my 30/06 when I hunt deer. It performs very well. I seldom use anything else.
Don't use it for anything larger than deer though. It doesn't work very well on elk.
Bottom Gun is offline  
Old July 8, 2002, 04:31 PM   #14
Johnny Guest
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: August 28, 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 4,116
Opinions are a dime a dozen, I know, but - - -

When working up elk loads for Elder Son's .300 WinMag a few years back, we made a couple of calls to the Sierra technical assistance 800- number, and we'd pretty well settled on the 180 SBT GameKing. I was contemplating use of the same bullet in my .30-06, to take along as a spare rifle. I mentioned to the technician that I'd been well impressed with the 165 GKs on deer. He strongly suggested that I use the same load on elk, and not go to the 180. Said that the 180 is a strongly constructed bullet, and, especially at longer ranges, would not perform nearly as well at '06 velocities as the 165.

He went on to make clear he was speaking of the 165 GameKing, and NOT the 168. I told him I'd read the same suggestions elsewhere. He said they had done further testing, after initial poor results, and made clear: Typically, the match bullet striking a game animal simply collapses the front end with little true expansion, the bullet turns and breaks in two. Loads with the 168 MK are well-thought-of by military and police marksmen, because of the pin-point accuracy capability at any range. But, clearly, for antipersonnel use, uniform expansion and penetration are secondary considerations.

Respect for a game animal demands that we make an effort to ensure instant kills whenever possible. I strongly urge you to use a good game bullet for sporting use.

bernie - - In re-reading your topic-opener post, I see you don't mention the cartridge in which you intend to load the bullet. Most of what I've written about the '06 would apply to the .308 as well.

Best of luck,
Johnny
__________________
MOLON LABE!
Amendment II ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Blog: Expert Witness
Johnny Guest is offline  
Old July 10, 2002, 03:04 PM   #15
Paul B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,534
I don't know if Siera has made any changes in the 165 gr. HPBT, but during one deer hunt back in 1978 I shot a coyote at roughly 200 yards with one. (Hides were selling for as much as $100 each back then.) When I got to that yodel dog, I found a two piece animal. One ruined hide and a bullet I figured would be too destructive on deer. I picked up a box of Remington core locks to finish out my hunt, and used the rest of those loads on targets. Haven't used them since. The one 165 gr. bullet I really like is the Speer SPFB. I've been using it in one .308 rifle I have because it it the only bullet in that weight range it will shoot accurately. (Really fussy rifle, a Ruger 77 RSI) It will penetrate and hold
together well. One deer that was facing me had the bullet penetrate to the right rear ham, after bouncing off the spine, a few ribs, and breaking the right rear leg bone before stopping. Bullet still had 65 percent of it's weight remaining. That's good enough for me. All the ohter deer I've used that bullet on were more or less braodside and the bullets penetrated all the way through. No deer went more than 30 feet after being hit.
Good bullet in my estimation. I'm going to try some in my 30-06 this year, if I draw a tag.
Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
Paul B. is online now  
Old July 24, 2002, 01:48 PM   #16
labgrade
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 29, 1999
Location: west of a small town, CO
Posts: 4,346
I've yet to use the 165 Sierra SBT Gameking on anything. I do, however, use the 180 flavor for "the old stand-by" on elk - .30-06

I did a decent enough write-up on it a few months back when the GameKing subject came up. We've taken quite a few elk with the 180 with excellent results.

On deer, 165s, of either flavor, should do quite well at .308/.30-06 velocities - depending on the range. All our 180 use was within 200 yards - & all but that one was in the under 40 yard range.

I loaded a bunch of the 165 HPBT GameKings for a bud but have yet to get a field report - maybe this year.

Sierra's book says that the 165 HP & SP can be used interchangably - for hunting. I'd think either would do the .308/.30-06 job wonderfully, but may even go to the 150 (or 130) for "just" deer.

I have used the Nosler BT 165 in a short-barreled .308 - once. Ended up shooting that poor (~110 pound) doe 5X times before she croaked at my feet. All good shot placement, all bullets penetrated & expanded as advertised - she just didn't want to expire cleanly. Certainly wasn't the fault of the bullet far as I could tell.

Excellent accuracy (the best) with the Nosler BTs & second best with the Sierras - either will do deer or elk all day long. Still, I'm sold on the Sierras - soft point.
labgrade is offline  
Old July 25, 2002, 09:17 AM   #17
Johnny Guest
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: August 28, 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 4,116
That WAS an interesting topic previously - -

- - and well worth searching out. Labgrade wrote,
Quote:
, but may even go to the 150 (or 130) for "just" deer.
I long ago sstandardized on the 165 for all around use in '06, but some guys whose judgement I really respect like the 150 for deer and antelope--Most especially Art Eatman, the esteemed moderator. Art has this L O O O N G barrelled and uses 150s to shoots stuff so far out that I can barely find it with a scope!

And another pal loves the old Speer 130 HP in all his .30 calibers. He works up to superfast loads and it goes like a laser. Says he loves to hunt deer, and shoot deer, but hates to TRACK deer.

Isn't it nice we have all these choices, confusing though they may be?

Bes,
Johnny Guest
__________________
MOLON LABE!
Amendment II ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Blog: Expert Witness
Johnny Guest is offline  
Old July 25, 2002, 04:34 PM   #18
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,046
This started with specific concern for comparable trajectories, so I stayed with that in earlier posts.

IMO, for deer which field-dress under 200 pounds, I see no particular reason to use a .30 bullet which weighs over 150 grains. More IMO is that I think a flat-based bullet, particularly a spitzer, will do just fine out to at least 300 yards. After that the shooter's skill becomes far more important than differences in bullet weight or design.

In a previous discussion here about bullet design, a Sierra person posted information to the general effect that the flat-based spitzer bullets are less likely to "blow up" than the boat-tails. This comment was limited to the 150-grain and 165-grain bullets. If I understood correctly, the blow-up problem is not evident with the 180-grain boat-tail or flat-base designs.

There is an operating range of velocities for different weights and styles of bullets. Some bullets, if hitting a deer at 40 to 75 yards, will blow up, but out beyond 100 yards will not. You just have to dig in to what information is available from the manufacturers as to the design parameters for your particular needs and purpose.

You can email Sierra, and they will get back to you within a reasonable time. I haven't tried any of the others.

Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old July 26, 2002, 12:11 AM   #19
Zorro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2000
Posts: 980
Nosler 165 Grain Balistic Tips for Deer.

That is all you need.

http://www.nosler.com
Zorro is offline  
Old July 28, 2002, 12:46 AM   #20
Kingcreek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1999
Location: rural Illinois
Posts: 589
the 165 Gameking is a wonderful performer on deer at .308/.30-06 velocities. early on in my reloading adventures I found this bullet shot splendid groups in my .300mag and foolishly tried it on a big northern MN buck deer. killed him very dead right where he stood but the bullet blew up horribly. Sierra cautions about this so my fault not thiers.
Kingcreek is offline  
Old July 29, 2002, 10:06 PM   #21
sniper1az
Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2002
Location: Phoenix ,Arizona
Posts: 27
For hunting use ,in some States , the Matchking is not a legal bullet to use . What caliber are you shooting (308 ;'06 ;300 WM) ? The next question is what twist is your barrel ? All these things will make a difference when selecting a bullet in any weight . A friend came to me with a Savage 99 lever gun in .308 . Wanted some hand loads for deer & elk .I knew his rifle shot 3" groups with 150 gr and 4.5 " with 180's . The barrel was not marked with a twist rate so in went the cleaning rod w/ jag & patch. Turns out to be a 1/12 twist .He wont get much velocity with the 180 so I sug. 165's . We cleaned up the bore & loaded Hornady SPBT ,Nosler Ballastic tips , and Nosler Partitions , all in 165 gr over Varget powder . We shot 5 round groups to see how well they would group . Hornady suprised us at .400" . Nosler Ballistics were at 1.25" & Partitions at 1.11 " ! Well the Hornady's dropped a deer right now at 230 yds . But even more impressive was the 935 lb. bull elk that he dropped with 1 round thru the heart ! It was dead befor it hit the ground . That shot was I think 125 yds. There is a photo of it on TED NUGENT'S sight photo #183 . Hope this is of a small help.
__________________
Never bring a boxcutter to Jihad , you might get more than you asked for ...
sniper1az is offline  
Old July 30, 2002, 12:25 AM   #22
labgrade
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 29, 1999
Location: west of a small town, CO
Posts: 4,346
I'd second the Hornady thumbs up. Never yet used 'em in the heavier bullets - always at .243, but experience with those show excellent results.

To get an exact point of aim/impact relative to that Sierra 168 MatchKing, I'd suggest some time at the bench. Only way to be sure is to actually go through the motions & arrive at a loading that doea duplicate that MatchKing.

In the meantime, a quick bit of playing with some ballistic software & relaoding manuals, I see that the 168 MatchKing has a BC of .475 - our starting point & of course, that varies depending on velocities, etc.

Sierra's 165 SPBT is .474 & their HPBT is at .375 (a real surprise to me, but that what's listed). Obviously, their SPBT is much closer.

Speer has a 165 SPBT at .477, Hornady's 165 at .459 & the Nosler BallisticTip right at that "magic" .475 number.

Again, the Nosler 165 BT has been my most accurate bullet - bar none (I did a .640" 3X group at 200 yards with a wildcat TC - 14" bbl'd handgun with that bullet) & the onliest deer shot with it (poor thing) took many hits to die. It wasn't the fault of the bullet. Every one (4 shots from 200 - 50 yards) performed flawlessly, "mushroomed" & ended up at the farside hide - that deer just did not want to die is my only explanation. This at starting velocities of 2400 fps. Since I was "proving" out an elk bullet at these lower velocities, I wanted much better penetration & went to the Barnes XBTs. The accuracy isn't there (but the pentration most certainly is) - doubtful that what's you're looking for as a MatchKing substitute ... anyway, I digress.

Depending on the muzzle velocity - that's what you'll get for BCs & the like & your 168 approximation. Looks like that Sierra SBPT GameKing's right on the money.
labgrade is offline  
Old July 30, 2002, 07:35 AM   #23
DAVID NANCARROW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 1,469
I have been using 165 gr Nosler BT's for over a dozen years, and have yet to recover a single bullet or piece of jacket in my VS 308. One dime sized hole in and one silver dollar sized hole out. Cheated one year with a silver box of 150 grain soft nosed Winchester and it bounced off the shoulder-cranked in a handloaded 165 (reloader 15) and broke that same shoulder, and bullet exited after breaking a rib on the off side-100 yard shot. Found out the Hornady 150 and 165 is just as accurate as the Nosler at half the price. Will try them this year to see if they work, but you know there is going to be a 165 grain BT as the second round in the mag.
DAVID NANCARROW is offline  
Old July 30, 2002, 09:14 AM   #24
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,046
David, my father used only the 150-grain Hornady in his '06 from WW II to 1974, when he pretty much "hung it up" from hunting. TLOK how many deer he killed...

, Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old July 30, 2002, 09:42 AM   #25
DAVID NANCARROW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 1,469
I think your father was wise beyond his years, Art. If the terminal performance is comparable to what Nosler makes, its a lock for me.
DAVID NANCARROW is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13487 seconds with 7 queries