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Old June 17, 2002, 04:59 AM   #1
cpileri
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here's a mean one: BG in the backseat

Let's say you're a minivan owner, the kind where the small but useable trunckspace communicates with the passenger portion of the car.
You just finish locking your baby into the carseat and since the windown are shaded (and its dark), you miss the BG i the trunk and hop into the driver's seat.

Ten minutes into the drive, you see him rise in the rearview mirror. He demands (whatever) and brandishes a (deadly weapon); threatening your child if you don't comply. You know he is serious.

Now what do you do?!?!?!?!?!

(a nightmare scenario I thought of yesterday in my minivan)

C-
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Old June 17, 2002, 08:44 AM   #2
gryphon
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I always check my vehicle's passenger compartments before getting and driving anywhere. Right now I am driving a 4 door passenger car, and it makes checking that much easier(compared to a van).

I also, have my keys in my hand wqhen walking to the vehicle, lock the door as soon as I get in and check all around me as well. I don't take getting into a vehicle lightly, as living/working in the city can make you an easier target.

Best thing is to not get caught unexpectedly, expect the unexpected.
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Old June 17, 2002, 10:07 AM   #3
cpileri
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Well, sure. But...

in this scenario, the BG is ALREADY IN THE CAR and has easier "access" to your child than you do.
What to do?
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Old June 17, 2002, 10:55 AM   #4
C.R.Sam
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Comply and try to think.

Or avoid....
When drivin airplanes normal to do a walk around (preflight) before departing. Count the wheels n wings n thing and look in assorted cubbyholes for things that are awry.

When drivin cages or bikes I do a walkaround. Again tires and other little things. AND look in the nooks n crannies of the cage for things that don't belong. The sleeping drunk, mugger, neighbor's pet gnu etc.

Situational awareness helps keep you and yours safe.

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Old June 17, 2002, 11:26 AM   #5
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If child is securely in a child seat and you are seat belted and have an air bag and the BG is just hanging over the seat, crash the car and hope the BG makes an exit out the windshield.

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Old June 17, 2002, 12:04 PM   #6
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Agree with Halffast.

Plus crash it in the most public place possible.

Do not let the BG lead you to an area of his choosing. Your survival chances will go down dramatically if you let a BG take you to a second crime scene.

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Old June 17, 2002, 12:08 PM   #7
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I think wrecking the vehicle would be a bad idea unless he's already shot you or your child. I think I'd comply until he gave me an opening. Pray in the meantime.
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Old June 17, 2002, 12:51 PM   #8
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I think that you should comply until you can even your odds a little bit better.

Whatever the man wants, whether carjacking, robbery, rape, or worse, he's going to need to get out and change seats, or make you go to him.

That is a better time to strike.
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Old June 17, 2002, 01:00 PM   #9
fix
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dial 911 on your cell phone and lay it on the seat. From there, comply with demands and wait for an opening.
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Old June 17, 2002, 01:56 PM   #10
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Sped up to 45, locked down the brakes in front of Police Station. I was still slamming bad guy over the head (with steering wheel lock 'Club') when the PD pulled the passenger door open.
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Old June 18, 2002, 12:07 AM   #11
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This is why I drive two-seaters.

Seriously, should you ever get caught flat-footed like this (C.R. Sam gives durn good advice), the safety of your kid is paramount; feign compliance, beg, negotiate, whatever, and pray for an opening to terminate the threat to your child.
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Old June 18, 2002, 10:27 AM   #12
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To fill in some details on my previous post....
I was driving 2-door car, no kids with me. BG reached in, unlocked door, got in and said "drive, *&^*&^*&^ ! ! ! ! !" Windows were down, didn't think it was hot enough for A/C. He had a small revolver in right hand. I got up to about 40/45MPH, then slammed brake pedal to the floor. Guy smacks face first into windshield, I slam the "fold forward to gain back seat access" portion of his side of the seat forward, pinning him to windshield, and proceed to "smite him strenuously about the head and shoulders". I didn't really know why before, but I always re-lock my "club" in the smallest size after removing it from the wheel.

Shoulda seen the cops' faces....They come bailing out of the station, after hearing screeeeeching tires at their front door, and see a guy flailing away at somebody pinned against dash/front glass of a car which is sideways across 2 lanes
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Old June 18, 2002, 02:06 PM   #13
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Good going foghornl!

Did you give any thoughts of him using his revolver?
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Old June 18, 2002, 02:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Seriously, should you ever get caught flat-footed like this, the safety of your kid is paramount; feign compliance, beg, negotiate, whatever, and pray for an opening to terminate the threat to your child.
Difficult one. But a few basic rules still apply:

Rule 1: Escape.

Rule 2: Make the adrenaline rush work for your escape. Don't freeze -- act. And think.

Rule 3: Act immediately to escape. Surprise the BG. Delay only if it'll improve your chances.

Rule 4: Don't try to avoid getting hurt while you escape. Odds are high that you will get hurt.

Now, here's how I think these apply in this scenario.

You don't want to let the BG take you to a second crime scene, because the odds against you and the kid escaping alive get even longer.

OTOH, the kid is in a child safety seat, so the odds might be better that he'd survive a crash than that he'd survive if the BG got you to where he wanted you.

So even with what Tamara said, I'd still favor crashing the vehicle in the most public way possible.

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Old June 18, 2002, 02:25 PM   #15
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CWL:
I had taken a quick peek, and his hand was down between the seat and the door. I think he saw the "Police Station" sign just after I did, and was probably thinking that he should hide his gun, just in case the cops were outside.

And since then, it is ALWAYS warm enough to run the A/C, or cool enough to use the heat. No more open windows.

I figured I was going to be "toast" if we got outside the city limits, so I thought I would try something completely "wild and crazy". Found out later that this particular [ahem] person had robbed a liquor store, and popped a few rounds into the ceiling to scare the customers/workers. His weapon of choice? A .32 "Clerke Manufacturing" revolver.
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Old June 18, 2002, 03:17 PM   #16
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What they said

I totally agree with what Sam, Tamara, and foghornl had to say.

Sam,
I believe in the prevention school. Just wanted to add one thing to your list. Check under your car as you near your car. Had a perp in this area who got his victims by hamstringing them when he lay under their cars. As they hit the deck, he'd boff them in the head and voila'....victim gift wrapped.
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Old June 18, 2002, 05:45 PM   #17
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For that matter, be vigilant EVERYWHERE. About 20 years ago (dang, time flies) when I was at the Univesity of Kentucky, there was a guy in the area that folks were calling the Louisville Slugger. He'd blindside people with a baseball bat.
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Old June 18, 2002, 06:48 PM   #18
George Hill
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You got a baby in a car seat... Any crash can be a hazard to the child.
Not an option.

US ARMY DOCTRINE applies here.
Assualt the ambush.
At the first chance to stop... Park the car, draw your weapon, engage the hostile with as much violence as possible including jumping back into passange area so you can shove you muzzle into his left eye socket.
If I take a hit, I don't care. Just make that one count as #4. The fight is freaking ON! If I die, at least I'll die taking that SOB with me. If my kid goes deaf from the gunfire - it's better than being abducted, dead, or worse.
I'm taking everything I have to kill that SOB. There is no other option.

(BTW, this applies to ANY situation.)
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Old June 18, 2002, 09:01 PM   #19
Bowser
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Stop car.

Shoot the bastard thru the seat. Take baby to ear doctor.
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Old June 19, 2002, 12:28 AM   #20
C.R.Sam
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LASur.....I always check under my vehicles. Fluids, parts etc you know.

Kid might well need eye doctor more than ear doctor if you shoot from front past kid to back.

Not allowing BG to make you go to another site of his choosing is VERY valid advice.

Beating on BG while delivering him to cop shop worked once for me too but it is VERY iffy. Cops have to decide which of you is the bad guy. Be prepared to get spread and IDd. And very carefull how you act and move.

Sam
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Old June 19, 2002, 09:45 AM   #21
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George,

This is just my opinion and I have no scientific data to support it. However, IF the baby is securely fastened in a modern car seat that is properly stapped into the car, and IF you were in a modern car with airbags that has a good crash rating, and IF the BG was hanging over the back seat such that SDS (sudden deacceleration syndrom) would put him in the front of the car (or hopefully out through the windshield), THEN I would believe that a crash at 40 mph would pose less risk to the child than a gun fight in the car.

Obviously, each situation is different and one would have to make the best judgement they could at the time. Just as obvious is the fact that this senerio is totally avoidable by just checking the car before you get in.

That is my $.02 and YMMV greatly!

David
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Old June 21, 2002, 05:04 AM   #22
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Don't even THINK of crashing the car with a kid in the back. What did your mother always tell you when you picked up your baby brother? SUPPORT HIS HEAD!!! Unless you have your kid in some kind of HANS device, he's running a pretty close to zero percent chance of surviving a hit hard enough to toss BG anywhere. Strap yourself into your car and plant it in something nice and solid. Hurts the ol' neck pretty dang bad. Now imagine that your neck is about 1/4 it's present diameter. This only worked for foghornl because his buddy wasn't too far from the windshield as it was. In a minivan, you'd have to stomp the brakes (or hit something), wait for the car to come to a complete stop, unstrap yourself, get out of the driver's seat, and go back to deal with the BG. Try this sometime in a parking lot, it takes quite awhile, and this is assuming that you are not injured by the stop.

I'm going with George's advice. First chance I get, the claws and teeth come out and I'm not stopping until BG is a frothy pink paste in the backseat, or somebody with a badge pulls me off him.
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Old June 23, 2002, 01:14 AM   #23
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Based on field tests, anyone standing on a bus can be put on the floor without using full braking power from even 15-20 mph.

First choice, I would lock the brakes at something over 45 MPH.
Second choice would be to put pedal on firewall and tell goblin to disarm itself or we would front in the next immoviable object I saw.
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Old June 25, 2002, 08:30 AM   #24
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Prevention is worth 10 rounds, or 40mph, of cure.

Fill up the empty unused spaces of your van with lightweight objects so there's nowhere a person CAN hide.

Garbage bags of styrofoam peanuts, milk crates, plastic totes, empty 2 liter soda bottles, etc. You want it light so it's not weighing down your car and using up extra gas, so it's easy to move in and out, and not a hazard during a wreck.

You want it free and disposable so you can leave it behind when you need the space. Bags of styrofoam peanuts are free for the taking and easily tossed, quite safe during a wreck, and bulky.

Milk crates locked in place with a steel cable or small chain would be an excellent filler and would be difficult, if not impossible, for a criminal to remove. Again, free and disposable. Also good for storage and packing groceries.

If the kiddie seat is facing rearward, then junior isn't going to get a faceful of hot powder. Or cover it up with a towel like I've seen some people do. Shades the kid and keeps 'em quite, like a bird. Probably be deafened for life, but alive and unblinded.
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Old July 3, 2002, 05:57 PM   #25
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Concur with Sam.
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