Ayoob (Stressfire) tactic question

[GhostShooter]

I finished reading Stressfire the other day (great book) and I had a question I thought a few of the more informed might be able to answer cornering his shotgun techniques. In the book he discourages moving around corners at the low read because someone might be able to pull you off balance when you come around the corner and instead recommends port arms. As I read this and talked to others about the issue, I don't see how this would give you the advantage. First, I always thought you were supposed to square the corners at least 1ft. away from the wall (which would negate the grabbing of the barrel at low ready)? Second, he says that if the attacker grabs the shotgun you will be able to perform either a groin strike or another maneuver to release the weapon. Doesn't this lead to a wrestling match over the gun (not a good idea for smaller men/women)? Finally, even if he manages to surprise you at the low ready and grab the barrel could you just pull the trigger and blow his leg off?

Again, I'm not doubting Ayoob I'm just asking for some clarification as to how this would give me an advantage when moving around corners with a shotgun.

[fed168]

It indeed could lead to a gun grab, but I think he covered letting the gun go and drawing the secondary weapon, in effect arming the perp.
My two cents, sling the shotgun and move to the pistol.

[KSFreeman]

I also have trouble with this one, GS. If I have the shotgun out, it is for a reason. If I don't need it, I'll sling it or put it back in the car or by my bed.

Wondering around anywhere at port arms seems to be a silly thing to do.

If I need it, I have it up ready to shoot if need be. If it is very narrow door or opening (an advantage of being non-buff), why not sling it like the fed sez and draw your pistola?

[Erick Gelhaus]

First, kudos for reading on the subject.

Corners are problematic but can be dealt with.

Give them as much room as possible - as far back as you can get, given structural limitations. Pie them, searching in Rays, as completely as possible before commiting.

Ready positions - The Low Ready (or Guard) is not a bad position but can cause you to telegraph if at a corner or passing a barricade. A note: While the stock remains in the shoulder pocket, the muzzle is depressed to the point where you can see the Threat, the Threats' hands & what they can access, threat areas, etc.

An Indoor Ready position is another option, as long as you've practiced with. There are two variants of it. Regardless of which you choose, your remains in the same position as with a Low Ready (or Guard). For the first variant, the muzzle is moved down and then outside of the support leg - making sure you do not cover your foot. You then "index" it's position with your support arm or hand. Some use their hand on the outside of their thigh. I uuse my forearm and what it hits on my duty belt or vest.

Variant 2 takes the muzzle straight down to towards the ground between your feet. An application of this may be a situation where you are going to enter a hallway or corner laterally and want to get your weapon up & on target when half your body is in the new space, rather than waiting for more of it to enter. Also, it can be applicable in tighter spaces.

Either takes practice. And Weapons Retention training needs to be involved.

Erick

[rennaissancemann]

Greetings GhostShooter,

Excellent questions.

What you're getting when you read Ayoob's book was his thoughts and personal opinions on how this tactical problem should be solved. The same goes for Erick's post, which is a very concise description of the techniques that Awerbuck advocates to solve the same problem. Both authors’ support their respective techniques with sound and logical reasoning backed up by real world case studies. Both techniques work, and both have their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Personally, I believe it boils down to which technique works best for you. Try both and use the one which feels most natural to you, and then work through the "what ifs" like grabs for the technique you chose to use.

Warmest regards

[Andy Stanford]

We (OPS) teach when the environment forces you to be so close that you can't maintain the distance to use your "normal" shotgun ready position (each has its pros and cons), to A) sling the shotgun and procede with a handgun, or (definitely second choice) bring the shotgun into an underarm assault position.

Although UA points the muzzle forward, and hence involves an increased risk of shooting a bystander due to startle, etc., it allows superior control or the weapon in a contact distance struggle.

[CWL]

A grabbed weapon is also a deflected weapon. He may be pointing his weapon at you with the other arm. Pie the room.

Something more important, why would you want to clear the house yourself? Get you and your's into a defensible "Safe Room" and wait for help, or if there is none coming, defend your area-or exit. Practice with family members where & how to meet in case of emergence. Assume everone else is a BG (until LEOs arrive), don't go looking for them.

There is really no good reason for you to move about.

[braindead0]

That would be my plan, I've got a clear view of the stairs from my bedroom door (which is solid wood, and decently lockable).

Seems to me that if you go looking, when they try to bust you for 1st degree murder...it would look very bad. Granted, you have no obligation to retreat in your own home, but it would probably reflect very well on your character if you did (assuming it was safe and prudent to do so).

[Dave T]

I'm a little late to the discussion but I would support Erick's comments and description as that is exactly what I teach.

At my department, I emphasized that if someone grabs your weapon (in this case your shotgun) they mean to do you harm. In the spirit of keeping it simple, the most straight forward weapon retention is to shoot them off the end of the barrel!

[Glamdring]

IMHO Low ready is the correct technique unless the space is so restricted you can't keep muzzle pointed forward in line with your eyes (3 eye principle).

If your using this technique correctly with proper tactics (pieing) you can shoot anyone that can grab your gun since you can see (ID) them and they will be in line with your muzzle.

If the space is to restricted to allow you to clear it with your SG then DON'T CLEAR IT WITH THE SG! Let partner with hangun or SMG clear it.

I don't think slings or weapon mounted lights make sense for CQC.

Lights like tracers work both ways. And they destroy nightvison.

A sling is a noose around your neck/body that murphy or goblins will use againsst you.

YMMV

[fed168]

Glamdring, I think we must agree to disagree. Slings are important to the long arm in CQC as are lights. I base this on CQC training and shooting in those conditions with long arms.
Sometimes you do not have the option to use the long arm or it may go out of service. The easiest way to transition is to let it hang and go to the secondary weapon. It is much easier to operate with two hands rather than one tied up holding the weapon, be it shooting a handgun or having to go hands on with a suspect, or having to remove another subject from the scene. If someone makes a grab, that is where weapon retention comes into play. The slings also help in shooting and moving, especially with automatic weapons.
It is hard enough to shoot with a light in one hand and a weapon in the other. Ever try to operate a long arm and a flashlight and shoot accurately? It is tough enough with a handgun, whereas a weapon mounted light saves the trouble of the two. Again it is simple, don't leave the light on all the time and don't stay in the same place twice. The lights destroy the other guy's night vision, not the operator's. The light is well ahead of the shooter. I feel, and others may too, that both the light and sling help more than the hurt.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Glam-

I'm going to concur with fed168's comments.

Erick