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Old June 14, 2002, 10:08 AM   #26
justice4all
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This guy should have shouted, "I've got a gun, the cops are on the way, stay where you are or be prepared to die." I assume the fiancee and sister would have been able to tell from the tone of voice that the "game" had gone too far.

One should know the person they intend to marry better than this. Still, incredibly tragic and sad...just the thing the antis love.
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Old June 14, 2002, 10:18 AM   #27
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All rules always apply. More than a couple of violations in this case. Someone already mentioned requesting the 'hiders' to come out from a position of safety. This is a tragedy, but like most, avoidable, with proper training, preparation, and awareness.

There are many ways that most of us could be caught up in similar situations. Late-night 'unauthorized' visits to teenage kids, for example. The surprise birthday or anniversary party, etc.

If you know the rules, and follow them, things may get exciting, but not fatal. A real shame.
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Old June 14, 2002, 10:30 AM   #28
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I find myself disagreeing with either extreme.
We've got the KSFreeman standpoint that this situation was solely the fault of the shooter (and, of course, including the requisite KSFreeman "flower shirted gunrag writer gunshop commando" references) and we've got others placing the blame solely on the young lady who decided to "taunt the tiger" by putting her armed fiance in condition orange and then scaring him.

It's not as cut and dried as all that. Either party could have (and should have) avoided this situation. As KS says, the shooter chose to pull the trigger. As others have said, the young lady chose to jump out of a closet at her armed boyfriend. Neither party is blameless.

Neither one "deserved" to have this happen, but through joint ignorance and stupidity, they caused a tragedy.

Lessons learned:
1. IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET
2. Don't go bump in the night
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Old June 14, 2002, 12:01 PM   #29
KSFreeman
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Cordex, those who carry firearms always have the last clear chance to avoid a horrific tragedy--they do not have to press the trigger.

K95, SD is always measured against the standard of the reasonable man. There are no free fire zones. Whether this poor man acted reasonably is open for debate and subjects him to terrible potential criminal, civil and admin liability.
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Old June 14, 2002, 12:18 PM   #30
Justin
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Sorry, but I have to disagree with anyone who says that you're free to shoot at anyone in your home that you don't know about.
I live in an apartment with two other room mates, and between the three of us, we have friends coming and going on a fairly regular basis.
On more than one occassion a friend of mine has hidden himself behind a door or in a closet and waited for me to walk by.
Then he'd jump out and yell 'BOO!' to scare me.
Did it make me jump?
Yes.
Did I get a quick surge of adrenaline?
Yes.
Did I light him up with a Mozambique drill?
Nope.

A GSC may be asking himself 'why didn't caliban ventilate the guy? After all, he was in his home, and caliban didn't invite him.'

You know why I didn't light him up?
Because I took a microsecond to evaluate the situation.
If need be, I can draw you a flow chart. It would go along the lines of

'Is big surprising moving thing attacking me?
If answer is Yes, draw and shoot.
If answer is No, do not draw, and do not shoot.'

Doesn't seem to difficult to me.
And I don't have a lot of friends to begin with, so shooting one would make my life slightly less enjoyable.

Now, was I irritated at my friend?
yes.
And afterwards he was like 'Oh crap, I forgot you have a pistol on you.'

I'm afraid that in this particular news event Mr. Kult disobeyed the rules, and did not make sure of his target.
Whether or not a jury finds him guilty is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that he shot the woman he loves because he didn't make sure of his target.
Real life throws curve balls. You can expect that at some point in your life you will be surprised or scared by something that isn't an actual threat. The fact that someone is stupid and jumps out at you to scare you doesn't give you the right to sling Gold-Dots.


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Old June 14, 2002, 12:25 PM   #31
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Kids at the arcade can make "shoot/no-shoot" decisions in the various video games they play with surprising accuracy.

Though what happened here is definitely not a game by a long shot, I sincerely believe that it only takes a fraction of a second for the shooter to identify whether the "jumping jack" is a BG or not, most especially if he's a very recognizable acquaintance (she's the fiancee, for crying out loud!).

He made a stupid mistake of letting the trigger finger do the thinking. and she paid for it with her life.

Fear and guns truly don't mix...

He should go to jail, IMHO.
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Old June 14, 2002, 12:39 PM   #32
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oh wow. that's one of the saddest things ever.
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Old June 14, 2002, 02:00 PM   #33
Blackhawk
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Quote:
This guy should have shouted, "I've got a gun, the cops are on the way, stay where you are or be prepared to die."
Justice4All nailed it. The guy let others have access to his house, and the "goblin" could have been a kid or kids, or just about anybody besides some goblin.

When he heard the noise, he should have called the cops so they could clear the house. If they're walking around with fingers on Glocks, let them be the ones to do the shooting, but they wouldn't have. They would have authoritatively shouted "This is the Police. Come out with your hands up!" or some such thing causing some urinary incontinence on the part of kids or pranksters.

As it is, he decided to shoot first and ask questions later before he ever started to clear his house after hearing the noise. How do I know? Where was his finger?
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Old June 14, 2002, 02:01 PM   #34
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Caliban, you nailed it.

BTW, the last time you told me that little story you did two backflips and emptied two TPV-loaded HK54 kurzen into the "threat." Which is it already? Hey, another thing, quit practicing your wall walking on those brick buildings on Printers' Row. It's hard to walk to court with you swinging those swords around.
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Old June 14, 2002, 02:06 PM   #35
Ben Swenson
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Cordex, those who carry firearms always have the last clear chance to avoid a horrific tragedy--they do not have to press the trigger.
I agree. Never did I hold the shooter blameless. T'was his fault first and foremost.

However, the deceased pulled a dumb stunt that initiated the situation that caused her death.

As DadOfThree pointed out, there was plenty of stupidity to go around.
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Old June 14, 2002, 03:07 PM   #36
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I bit reluctant to blame the victims. Surprise parties/pranks are not exactly out of the ordinary.

Then again, I'm also reluctant to condemn the shooter too bad. I'm sure he's beating himself up enough as it is.

Or maybe I'm just depressed and not thinking straight.
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Old June 14, 2002, 03:45 PM   #37
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geez, i can't believe how insensitive all you people are. not one has offered some words of comfort to the poor Glock that was scared out of his wits so badly that he discharged.

both parties share the blame. the girl, for being immature enough to go through such lengths to 'scare' her groom-to-be, and the guy who forgot its two in the chest, and one in the head.

yes, i'm quite insensitive about these things. i see it as cleansing the gene pool. how old was the girl, anyways? 19 going on 12?
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Old June 14, 2002, 04:06 PM   #38
clipse
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WOW!!!

This incedent left me completely speechless. I read this yesterday and am just now getting something to say. This was a very tragic accident. Very very sad. In fact I had trouble sleeping last night because of this.

I am getting married in August. My fiace and I live together and have for about 1 1/2 years. She is very parinoid about bumps in the night. Every time she would say "will you go check the house?" Of course I oblidge after teasing her about it bein 3 o'clock in the morning. I don't have a handgun but i do have a winchester 1300. Everytime i check the house I hed out of the room with that. I don't keep a shell in the barrel. I figure that if someone is actually there and i can get close enough for them to hear me I will loudly say "I have a gun!!"then pump it.(that should cause a bowel movement. "I am calling the cops, STAY THERE!!! " I have ran this plan through my head hundreds of times. I figure if someone jumps out at me, no time to pump, just hit them with the gun.(really really hard)

Reading this thread brought up a disscusion between my fiance and I. After the dicussion she promised to stay in the bedroom hidden.

The mere thought of me accidently shooting her is crushing. She is my whole life, and I love her more than anything in this whole world. I know i would not be able to handle doing that. I would hate to know what I would do if I knew I had yet another 7 shells with 00 buck in the gun. I don't even like thinking about so i am going to stop right here.



clipse
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Old June 14, 2002, 04:22 PM   #39
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Clipse, I think events like this, however tragic, are good remedies to "gunshop commandoism fever" that breaks out from time to time in the form of "homes being free fire zones" or "the 4 rules should be ignored in fights and it's O.K. to sling lead everywhere" or "I'm going to seek out EVIL like Batman and hunt down `criminals' lurking about in my home."

If anything positive can be gleaned from this horror, it is that the answer to all three axioms above is a very loud "NO!"

Just think if our purported shooter had received training or even thought about the horrorific consequences of violating Rule #4. This would not have transpired and the couple would be making plans for a long and happy life together.
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Old June 14, 2002, 04:46 PM   #40
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Plenty of blame to go around. I hate to judge not knowing all the facts, but I'd give the victim about 20% of the blame and 80% to the shooter. She may have been stupid and set herself up to get shot (taunting the tiger), but he pulled the trigger. This wasn't an accidental shooting, it was a negligent shooting. Very sad.
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Old June 14, 2002, 05:40 PM   #41
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This situation is one of those where EVERYONE loses.

I gotta go with KSFreeman on this though. ALWAYS know your target. Even in the dark. I never pull the trigger if I don't know what I am shooting at. Identify the target before choosing to use force against it. If it's someone who you cannot identify AND someone who does not respond to your calls to leave the premesis immediately then shoot. At least that's my plan. I have too many kids in the house and that related traffic to just go shooting anything that startles me.

Still... I do not condemn the man too badly because his punishment will be living without his finance for the rest of his life. It was obviously an accident (or negligence). And that's why Gun Safety Rules exists. The bummer for the rest of us is that this sort of thing gives us all a black eye. Always know your target...
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Old June 14, 2002, 06:18 PM   #42
444
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This was horrible. Worst case senario.

We recently had a thread discussing the use of laser sights. During that thread I maintained that by lighting someone up with a laser gave both parties a chance to evaluate the situation etc. I was flamed without mercy. This story is one more example of what I was talking about. You can not, can not, simply open fire on anybody in your house without positively identifying a threat. Even if you don't know the person, it may be a mistake.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...t=laser+sights

Another drum I have beat frequently; Having a dog is an integral part of any home protection scheme. My dog will alert me if anyone is even in the yard. If someone comes in the house, it is obvious from his reaction if he knows them or not by whether they get showered with affection, or they suddenly see that bright light at the end of a dark tunnel. There is no way someone would be hiding in my house that he doesn't know and trust (and he is still alive). 99.9% of people with sense would never enter my house without me there. Long story, short; if someone jumped out at me in my own house, I would KNOW that they were a friendly. He is 100% reliable.
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Old June 14, 2002, 06:25 PM   #43
Kalvan
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My perspective on how this happened is that it was a training problem. It wasn't the "ID your target" rule; it was the "keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot" rule. He's going into what he thinks is harm's way, his higher brain functions are switched off, and he's got his finger inside the triggerguard of a Glock, which comes from the factory with a 5.5-lb pull. She jumps out at him and his "startle response" is triggered. A million years of evolution screams, "MAKE FIST!", and the gun discharges.
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Old June 15, 2002, 01:15 AM   #44
Justin
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Quote:
BTW, the last time you told me that little story you did two backflips and emptied two TPV-loaded HK54 kurzen into the "threat." Which is it already? Hey, another thing, quit practicing your wall walking on those brick buildings on Printers' Row. It's hard to walk to court with you swinging those swords around.

No, no, no KSFreeman, you're confusing two completely different events.
Yes, there was a time when I did two bullet-time(tm) enhanced backflips followed by the obligatory John Woo-style submachinegun-in-each-hand and took out a perp. But in that case I had been able to use my finely honed spidey-sense to determine that there was an honest-to-goodness threat in the building before I even opened the door.
Two totally different events...sheesh.

As for the swords those aren't my style, but I do have a friend, and she is quite fond of sabres.

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Old June 15, 2002, 09:01 AM   #45
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KS Freeman,

I will live within the laws of my state and you can live within the laws of your state. As you may or may not remember the reference to "free fire zones" was yours first. I have to wonder if there isn't a little "gunshop commando" inside of you just itching to get out since you bring it up so often.

444,

I am with you on the dog. My Belgian Shepard gives our family great peace of mind. As a threat assessor she is without peer.
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Old June 15, 2002, 09:52 AM   #46
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Chalk up another one for the family guard dog. Mine is a small one (something like a short-haired Pomeranian) but emits an ample bark when things aren't right. He is my first warning. By the way... I have had to "investigate" strange things in the middle of the night on a couple occasions -- once or twice with the .44 in hand. But the finger is off the trigger when I do it. I once slipped on a patch of ice on the front porch and landed on the elbow that the .44 was attached to. Because my finger was not on the trigger, I did not have an AD. Thank goodness for that as my neighbor's house would have been "ventilated".
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Old June 15, 2002, 03:13 PM   #47
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I'll have to side with Shawn Dodson & KSfreeman on this one.

Keep finger off trigger & I.D. your target BEFORE aiming and firing.

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Old June 15, 2002, 07:12 PM   #48
KSFreeman
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K95, I am the anti-GSC and darn proud of it. The drunken 15 year old nieghbor girl, the UPS man, or the police officer chasing a running drunk driver, all appreciate one checking his fire and acting as a reasonable man in all 50 states and not believing the rubbish in the gun rags or the gun shoppe.

Kalvan, that may be a possibility. You almost always need to violate 2 or more rules for someone to get hurt.

caliban, sorry. Maybe that was Ronin along Printer's Row? A woman into sharp stuff? Ojos, chico!
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Old June 15, 2002, 11:11 PM   #49
KP95DAO
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Red Herring.

KS,

"The drunken 15 year old nieghbor girl, the UPS man, or the police officer chasing a running drunk driver, all appreciate one checking his fire and acting as a reasonable man in all 50 states and not believing the rubbish in the gun rags or the gun shoppe."

The above seems to be best described as a red herring. What would the above individuals be doing in a secured home. What would they be doing in an unsecured home? The answer is they would not be in a secured home and they should not be in an unsecured home unless invited.

Perhaps the use of "rubbish" and "shoppe" give an insight into your reasoning.

I also wonder if you have ever been anywhere that had a "free fire zone?" I have, and if an individual found themselves there without permission they could expect to be fired upon. Fortunately nobody made that error during the time I was stationed there.
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Old June 16, 2002, 12:05 AM   #50
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I think we need to cool off a little. WE are getting all bent out of shape based on a single report, which may or may not have anything to do with the truth. We don't know what that basement looked like (well lit or dark), or what type of noise the girls made that warned the guy. We don't know what type of training he had (maybe a few classes at Frontsite, who knows?).

There are some lessons to be learned from this tragic story, by until we get a complete break-down of the event, no one here can say whether or not we would not have made the same shot. I have certainly cleared my house and apartment with a loaded pistol on several occassions, usually based on trifle noises that make me unease, nothing worth calling the cops. If 2 people leaped out of a closet at me and I knew, KNEW, no one was supposed to be there, I think I would fire, even without a clear ID. (Remember, this guys GF went through some pretty exteme measures to convince him she was away). I don't think you can always have the luxury of a 100% ID when you are getting bum rushed by several opponents inside your own home. LAter.
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