The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 28, 2002, 03:44 PM   #1
Solitar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2000
Location: Solitary
Posts: 717
Most accurate civilian rifle at one mile ranges.

What very long range accurate rifles are there available to the average person through their corner FFL? Let's put a price limit of $10,000 on such a dream gun. Let's also start the discussion with the .338 Lapua and the .50 cal. Here is a link to begin with.
http://www.snipercentral.com/longbow.htm
What weapon system might be better for accurate placement and effective terminal performance at one mile or maybe even 2 kilometers with average winds? Note that I'm speaking about a practical long range weapon -- something which does not require absolutely perfect windless conditions to effectively terminate, at one mile or more, a 250 lb enemy soldier wearing light body armor (head shots at that range are unrealistic).

No, I'm not advocating 20mm Lahti's or airstrikes either. I said commonly available at your local FFL.
Solitar is offline  
Old April 28, 2002, 11:49 PM   #2
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,169
Well, a mile is 1760 yards, and I don't think even the best military snipers bothered to try at that range. In fact, it is nearly impossible to even see a man at that range unless he is standing still in the open. Generally, you have to find the target first before picking it up in the scope.

You might also try http://www.beyond1000.com for some info on shooting at those ranges and rifles a lot less than your $10,000.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 12:40 AM   #3
C.R.Sam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1999
Location: Dewey, AZ
Posts: 12,859
There have been a few (very few) confirmed kills at over 2,000 yards done by military. No reason why a civillian could not duplicate the equipment and feat. A lot of practice with an excellant big bore gun. An excellent spotter, spot on ranging, accurate wind reading........

And of course more than a modicum of luck.

The better you are, the luckier you get more often.

Sam
C.R.Sam is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 05:36 AM   #4
edamon2k
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2002
Posts: 337
Check out this guys site:

http://www.nucleus.com/~cronhelm/1mile.html

Guy hit from 1890 yards with a 95gr .243.

Impressive to say the least.

-d
edamon2k is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 06:06 AM   #5
Jamis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2001
Location: VA/WV
Posts: 102
I'll believe the one mile shooting when I see it done.
Jamis is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 08:44 AM   #6
ctdonath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 1999
Posts: 1,902
The Canadian Snipers thread mentions a recent 2430 meter shot in Afghanastan with a MacMillan Tac-50. This occured a few days after he made a 1700m shot.
ctdonath is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 10:25 AM   #7
johnwill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2000
Location: PA
Posts: 3,451
Personally, I think anyone wanting to shoot a mile would probably start his selection with the .50BMG guns, they should have enough retained energy at the end to do some damage.
__________________
I collect old pistols, got any?
johnwill is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 10:41 AM   #8
444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,727
Shooting at a mile, like shooting at any other distance, is much more effected by skill than equipment. No matter what you buy, and no matter what you spend, you won't be able to hit anything at a mile without significantly more skill than the average Joe.
I have the video tape, The One Mile Shot, by David Tubb. He can do it, and does it on tape, and he does it from a prone position, not a bench. He is also one of the best shots alive today bar none.
__________________
You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
444 is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 11:17 AM   #9
CZ Gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2002
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 799
A mile ?!?!? Sounds like Bill Gates' new house (dining room).

Why would ANYONE in the "civilian world" need to make such a shot?

Just curious.



__________________
Gunner

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." -- Vegitius, c. 375 AD
CZ Gunner is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 11:25 AM   #10
22lovr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2002
Location: The "burbs," just southwest Atlanta
Posts: 757
Golf balls at 1,000 yards

I have a work associate that routinely puts holes through suspended golf balls at 1,000 yards. I'll have to ask him what the manufacturer of his rifle is but it is a 7 mm and he says the heart of that accuracy is the painstaking handloads he assembles to get that kind of performance.
__________________
Jeff the 22luvr ><>
"You can't know the future but you can know the one who does...."
I'm the "Will Rogers" of guns; I've never met one I didn't like.
22lovr is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 12:06 PM   #11
Shoney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2002
Location: Transplanted from Montana
Posts: 2,311
solitar:

Have you looked into the 50 cal Astol Tihsallub limited production rifle? Incredible!!!!
__________________
I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111
Shoney is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 12:47 PM   #12
CITADELGRAD87
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2000
Posts: 432
I got a brochure listing about 10 reasons why the .408 Cheyenne Tactical is better than the .50 at extreme range. About the only drawback I see is there are only about 40 rifles on the planet.
419gr and 305gr.

Table says supersonic all the way to 2500. .50 transitions to subsonic at 1500.

Velocity at 1500, 1520 to 1067 for the .50,
energy 2150 to 1688,
time of flight 2.36 to 3.001,
drop is -878.71 inches to -1276.04.
CITADELGRAD87 is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 03:00 PM   #13
Bogie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2000
Location: Job hunting on the road...
Posts: 3,827
First, for long distance shots using a "portable" non-.50BMG rifle, forget about "production" rifles. You're gonna want a custom. That'll probably run you about $2,500 or so.

Add about a $1000 (or so) for a scope.

Add another $1,000 (or so) for precision reloading equipment. Things like neck turning tools, inside micrometers, etc.

Take your time to learn to use the stuff.

I'd recommend Bill Shehane (www.scopeusout.com) and his 6.5/284 Shehane wildcat at 1,000 yards... Bill's one of the "kings" of thousand yard competition gunsmiths.

At further, you might be best served to give McMillan a call.
__________________
Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist.

And making the world's greatest bottle openers!
Bogie is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 06:19 PM   #14
C.R.Sam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1999
Location: Dewey, AZ
Posts: 12,859
Quote:
Take your time to learn to use the stuff.
That statement cannot be overstated.

Sam
C.R.Sam is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 10:05 PM   #15
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,216
Quote:
I have a work associate that routinely puts holes through suspended golf balls at 1,000 yards.
Let's say for the fun of it a golf ball is 1.5" in diameter (I know that's too big.)

That means that he's got to shoot BETTER than 0.15 MOA to make that happen.

I think that the benchresters are winning 300 yard competitions with 0.10- 0.11 MOA groups but he's shooting over 3 times farther than they are...

This guy could make a lot of money:

1. Selling rifles and ammo to benchrest competitors.
2. Winning benchrest competitions.
3. Training shooters how to exactly dope wind conditions.

JohnKSa is offline  
Old April 29, 2002, 10:11 PM   #16
Bogie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2000
Location: Job hunting on the road...
Posts: 3,827
This past weekend, at a major BR contest, with some of the absolute BEST shooters in the world competing, the average MOA for the 20 targets averaged was a bit over 0.3 MOA.

Participants included Tony Boyer, who came in 2nd. Seems it was MAJOR windy, and he leaked one for a 1.3" group at 200...
__________________
Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist.

And making the world's greatest bottle openers!
Bogie is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 06:08 AM   #17
dfaugh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 1,715
Gotta be a .50

Once you get past 1000 yards, you probably gotta consider the .50s only...They are available (although expensive) and proven in combat (see the article mentioned, about Canadian snipers)...Even if subsonic, retained energy is high...Quality reloading componenet readily avaiable, as well as alot of knowledge from the longe range guys....I believe 1000 yrd record held by a .50, 2 1/2" group????
__________________
"If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules"

"No one has the answer, but one thing is true.
You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you.
You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide,
you've got to go in after it, and never be denied.
Time is running out...Let's roll.
Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love.
We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove.
Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth.
Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."
dfaugh is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 08:46 AM   #18
Jamis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2001
Location: VA/WV
Posts: 102
JohnKSa, you said it! If this guys's hitting golf balls at 1000 yards, he's setting world records. I'd also like to know....what power scope do you need to even SEE a golfball at 1000 yards.
Jamis is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 10:45 AM   #19
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16,625
Hitting golfballs. Heck! I can't even do that with a putter. Gimme my gun.

Getting back to 1 mile shots, go big bore. Haven't heard of the .408 Cheyanne Tactical but if it offers superior ballistics over the 50, go for it. In terms of rifle, for commonly available rifles, I'd go with a single shot bolt action like a McMillan, Barrett or other reputable make. The other half of the battle is to handload to get the best out of the barrel.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 12:00 PM   #20
444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,727
The One Mile Shot video tape is pretty good. He goes through all the ins and outs of making a shot like that. Obviously it takes a very accurate rifle, and of course extremly accurate handloads. Then you have to have an angled scope base that makes up for the fact that your scope runs out of elevation before you get that kind of range (he was already using a Leupold Tactical scope that has a greater elevation range than a run of the mill scope). Then he calculates on paper what kind of drop he is getting at that range. Then he uses many years of championship shooting experience at the thousand yard line along with wind flags to dope the wind. After all this he was on paper with every shot. However it wasn't like he could put all his shots on a human silhouette target. Let alone doing something like that on demand; flopping down into a prone position and hitting a human without all the prep work. He wasn't using a .50, it was some wildcat caliber that I guess is all the rage in the 1000 yard matches. However this was a custom rifle and not something that is available at your local dealer.
444 is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 12:14 PM   #21
uglygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Cowpie Ca
Posts: 552
Love the idea of the 408Chyenne, heck at 2k yards even the 338Laupa mag should stay supersonic or hold a balistic edge over the 50BMG. Most of the data I've seen show all but the best 50BMG bullets going subsonic before 2k yards. While the 408Chyenne can definitely go way out there while staying supersonic I'm not too sure what the 338Laupa can manage when using bullets that are best of the breed.



Anyhow, shooting golf balls at 1k yards. I've seen various statements over the years that throw up a red flag just as quickly as that one, my favorite is "shooting silver dollars at 1k yards" or in some instances a mile even. The uneducated fall for it every time but once you get into it with them and use a little logic it's quickly chaulked up as a near impossible task.

Heck, most of the 50BMG rifles out there that are used by the military aren't typically capable of better than 1-1.5MOA, that alone should make it more of a 1300-1500 yard rifle(considering you want a high probability of first round hit, granted the person knows how to shoot well) if we're talking bipedal species as targets.

One mile hits and beyond are certainly pushing things a bit more, somebody always mentions the feat that Carlos Hathcock pulled off in Vietnam making a 2200+ yard shot on a VC with a scoped M2 setup on top of a mountain, sometimes those who bring up that shot try to make a jump in rationale that if the not so accurate M2 can accomplish that hit than a more accurate "sniper" rifle could do the job with greater ease. The only thing I can say to that was that Carlos Hathcock had an entire belt of ammo to make use of with little real need or concern for a first round hit, there was a bit of luck involved with making that hit and it probably helped that he had enough ammo to allow him to work up a lead with each target, while being a great shot if he had a Barret M82 back then or one of the bolt action 50s the ability for him to follow the target and compensate so quickly likely wouldn't be possible.
uglygun is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 06:10 PM   #22
echo3mike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2000
Location: Chantilly, VA...Just barely behind the lines!
Posts: 490
Um...in March, at the Colorado Rifle Club, Bill Schrader set a 1000yd world record 5-shot group of 1.437", with a Rem700 in .300 Win, Hart bbl and McMillan stock, ( found at Xtreme Accuracy and The Sniper's Hide )

That being said, I think that the .408 CheyTac and the .338 Lapua are going to be the best contenders for "off the shelf" one mile shots. There may be others, but one thing to consider is that the ammo for these two is high-end production IF you can find it. You'll probably have to roll your own, where you can pursue consistancy to near madness.

The .50 is also possible, but Mil-surp ammo is probably out. One big reason Hathcock made his ~2500yd hit on a 12 year old mule is that the target was in the EXACT same location where Hathcock zeroed the weapon the day before: he was using the same ammo, at roughly the same time of day with similar environmental conditions. However, Dean Michaelis has an incredible book on long range shooting with the .50. His suggestions about environmental and meterological factors, as well as rangefinding, (he uses a theodolite), are outside the box. He suggests adjustments for the wind over the range of the shot, barometric pressure changes, enviroment temp, ammo temp, WIND TEMP, ( which can alter drifts several feet), spin drift... it's a little mind-numbing. I'm tempted to buy a Tac-50 just to see if his stuff works!

One mile, (1750yds) hits can happen, but alot needs to go into the prep.

My two cents.

Regards,
S.
__________________
God, Country, Corps!

"Only Accurate Rifles Are Interesting"
Col. Townsend Whelen

Por Libertate Patriae

TFL Alumni

Last edited by echo3mike; May 1, 2002 at 05:49 AM.
echo3mike is offline  
Old April 30, 2002, 08:28 PM   #23
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,216
Quote:
in March, at the Colorado Rifle Club, Bill Schrader set a 1000yd world record 5-shot group of 1.437",
Well, shooting a 1.5" group isn't exactly the same thing as being able to 'routinely' hit a 1.5" circle. The second is considerably more difficult.

Anyway, regardless of how you look at it--the 'golf ball friend' is shooting well enough to 'routinely' set world records.

Now, figure the odds...


Two useful formulas relating MOA group size to group size in inches.

1 MOA is

(distance to target in yards) / 95.5

Group size expressed in MOA is

(group size in inches) * 95.5 / (distance to target in yards)
JohnKSa is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 02:08 AM   #24
Bobitybob
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2008
Posts: 1
I'm sorry if im a bit vague, as I have not researched this in a while, but i seem to recall that .35-low .4's have the best ballistic patterns (meaning longest range). Just thought I might throw that out there.
Bobitybob is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 02:58 AM   #25
predator86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 549
lets see under 10 grand? available at your local ffl?? capable of 1-2 mile shots? sounds like somebody wants a windrunner......


http://www.edmarms.com/products/m96.htm
__________________
Beware the man with one gun.
predator86 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13372 seconds with 7 queries