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Old April 27, 2002, 10:38 PM   #1
Remmy
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Lots of African hunting videos...this is BS!

I knew people hunted game in Africa, like elephants and water buffalo, but just seeing this take place is really disturbing. Now, i love to hunt, but only stuff I am going to eat, like deer, which i love to hunt. (exception of yard pests...)

I just thought i would post this link to a bunch of videos. Most are pretty sad ex.) shooting elephants, lioness', hyena's, and every and any other African animal you can think of, even a bamboon sitting in a tree.

What is everyone else's take on this type of thing...

http://www.accuratereloading.com/videos.html


Some of you may have been to their forums over there, its new to me though.
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Old April 27, 2002, 10:57 PM   #2
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Much of the game is in fact edible. The natives take a lot of the meat that doesn't suit the hunter's "tender" palate. It is a source of income for the local goverments and gets a lot of international attention, i.e., scrutiny. The type and number of game head you may take is, for the most part, strictly regulated.
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Old April 27, 2002, 11:01 PM   #3
Gewehr98
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So hunting African wildlife comes as a surprise to you?

Does the name Karamojo Bell mean anything to you?

It's hunting. Maybe not for food, but it's still hunting. People have their own interpretation of hunting, be it trophy, food, varminting, or the sport of it.

I personally don't think using a dog team to wear down and tree a bear has much sporting appeal, but it's still hunting, and bear hunters still have the right to do so. I've got a freezer full of deer and elk venison, which I hunted, dressed out, and quartered myself. It's hunting, even if the vegans in my area consider me a barbarian for doing so.

Dunno if that baboon in the video clip was considered a varmint or not. Maybe he was considered a rabies risk. It's still a hunting video, just like those videos for sale of prairie poodles being exploded into a pink mist by a .22-250 here in the U.S.

Saeed, the Arab gentleman in the video shooting that .577 Tyrannosaur from the bench, is the sysadmin of www.accuratereloading.com. He and his website are from the United Arab Emirates. It's a very well-run website, with some real stand-up folks, and it offers good information, especially in the reloading area.
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Old April 27, 2002, 11:04 PM   #4
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I've always been under the impression that little is wasted. Even if it's left afield (which is probably the exception), something is still going to eat it. A lot of the time, the indiginous people will take the meat which they may not have had otherwise.

Making judgement of all African hunters just blasting away and leaving carcases is little different from non-hunters judging American deer hunters as doing the same thing.

Lack of information can help people make assumptions that fit their stereotypes...
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Old April 27, 2002, 11:11 PM   #5
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yea...

I know i wasnt clear enough, but yes, i understand what "hunting" is... I was simply putting my opinion out there that i dont agree with this from a moral stand point. That is, i myself wouldnt go out and shoot some animal because i consider it fun, then leave then animal for someone else to eat or do whatever. I like to experience the actual work that follows a kill, be it draggin the animal out of wherever, or skinning it, which i doubt any of these men do.

to sensop, i am glad you pointed out a couple of things in your post...

My only problem with these people is there morality...which is no big problem, just my opinion and i thought i would mention it with this post.

Im not concerned with how well of a website is run, and yes, i knew hunting existed in Africa.

Again, to the slow ones, my problem is with the bloodthirsty hunters that shoot lions and elephants....its different knowing that this goes on and then seeing this done.

I would like to include that i am not stereotyping all "african hunters" here...and also say that i do believe and varmint shooting and the like for plenty of obvious reasons.
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Old April 27, 2002, 11:48 PM   #6
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Since I'm the "slow one", I struggled to come up with this:

Quote from Remmy: "I like to experience the actual work that follows a kill, be it draggin the animal out of wherever, or skinning it, which i doubt any of these men do."

Before passing judgement on the folks in those videos,
here they are, after the hunt, barbequeing their take:



That's a duiker he's roasting. Before it got on the spit, it *probably* got dragged out of the bush, and skinned. On the same page are three water buffalo they shot for meat, as well as three guinea fowl for stew.
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Old April 28, 2002, 02:29 AM   #7
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:barf: I agree with Remmy (total BS) on this.These animals are too exotic to be shot.I don't care if they use the last toe nail on them and nothing goes to waste.
Don't understand how they could pull the trigger on a big cat or an ele. and enjoy it.Some animals are just too majestic to be killed in this manor.
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Old April 28, 2002, 02:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
Some animals are just too majestic to be killed in this manor.
In what manner? With a gun? Is that somehow a less noble death than disease or predation? (Or in the case of some cats, getting poisoned by a farmer to keep 'em out of his goats)

Nature is grand and beautiful on the Nature Channel in your living room, it's smelly and annoying when you're up to your knees in it all day long staring at the north end of a southbound ox.
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Old April 28, 2002, 06:39 AM   #9
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Tamara, if nature is so wonderful, why aren't they homeless happier? How come the bunny huggers never live under a bridge or in a hole in the ground in the woods?

I could really care less if people hunt or not. I do not like the flabby flannels free riding on my money. However, if we eliminate P-R as we should and make the flabby flannels pay their own way (yeah, right, that will happen), they can shoot all the critters they wish.
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Old April 28, 2002, 07:14 AM   #10
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Those animals are no more exotic over there than the whitetail deer is over here.

Without control, elephants would over populate and destroy there environment leading to starvation for them as well as many other species.

Shooting a lion is no different than shooting a coyote except that he can bite back, a thrill much the same as skydiving.

I have personally had elephant meat and think it's quite tasty.

A few hours reading some African history and actually researching the situation may help you put things in perspective instead of jumping on the "those animals are too cute to shoot" banwagon.

And lastly, animals that don't get taken by a hunter will die in one of two ways:

1. A predator will kill and eat it

2. It's teeth will eventually wear down to the point that it can no longer chew its food enough to digest it which in turn leads to lingering starvation. The same is true of herbivores as well as carnivores.
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Old April 28, 2002, 08:58 AM   #11
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Animals are animals, and the more majestic, the greater the satisfaction in taking one. This is particularly true if the animal in question has the ability to take you, too.

I do not hunt in order to kill; rather, I kill in order to have hunted.
Stalking a wild animal of any type is the same, no matter whether one is using a gun or a camera. It makes no more sense to not pull the trigger than it does to not release the shutter.

Homo sapiens sapiens is the top predator on the planet. Accept it....or don't accept it. If you don't accept it, be aware that you are ignoring reality and not thinking rationally, if at all.
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Old April 28, 2002, 09:16 AM   #12
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Gewehr98,

I couldn't help but notice the "fashionable attire" the man in that picture is wearing.

It looks like the animals are not the only ones "dragged" out of the bush. What's up with that?
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Old April 28, 2002, 09:36 AM   #13
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What Sensop said. After a few "mystery stews" in some less traveled parts of East Africa, I can vouch for the fact that most meat is edible. Not necesessarily tasty, but edible.
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Old April 28, 2002, 09:39 AM   #14
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Exotic?

Now that's funny. I guess it depends where you live and travel...

Now, about hunting:

If you regulate hunting elephants, for instance, charge a decent fee and share the meat and money with the locals, the elephants actuallly thrive. Their numbers actually increase since they're a valuable, renewable source of income and food for the locals. They become protected.

Eliminate the hunting, the shared fees and food, however, and the elephants struggle to survive. Their numbers decrease as they are killed with no hope of protection. Ivory poachers can whack a hole herd in just a couple of hours, and no one really cares.

It may sound illogical to some to think that regulated hunting actually increases the amount of game, but it's not. It's so simple and logical that a child could have thought of it.

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Old April 28, 2002, 10:17 AM   #15
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1. No game species, worldwide, is threatened by controlled/regulated hunting. The threats are from poaching and from habitat change.

2. Most game species, worldwide, where there is adequate protection against illegal taking are increasing in numbers.

When local people have a vested, financial interest in the health of a resident species, that species will increase in numbers. This is most evident in Africa with the elephant, and in the U.S. with the whitetail deer and the wild turkey.

An American may believe a kudu is exotic and too pretty to shoot. An African may believe the same about a mule deer.

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Old April 28, 2002, 10:31 AM   #16
Remmy
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Just to clear things up again...although i have probably stuck my foot in my mouth in previous posts.

"My only problem with these people is thier morality", and the way in which they go about doing their harvesting, i guess i am just different, which i why i said someting along the lines of "this is my opinion" but i like to keep killing honorable etc. I respect the animals i hunt and like to appreciate the kill. Not saying that all these guys werent doing this, but some of the films gave me a feeling of the opposite, i dont usually laugh at the game i shoot, or gut shoot the animals either. Again, i know some of this wasnt intentional, and i dont deal with the type of game that was being hunted...

Lots of good points being put out there, and i stand corrected in some ways. I guess i felt like i needed to justify my opinion again...even though some were getting off on another angle.
I could go on and on, how some try to point out the obvious; saying "accept it or dont accept it"... when no one is trying to argue otherwise...(for instance, that humans are the top predator)
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Old April 28, 2002, 10:35 AM   #17
Jim March
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Remmy, here's what's really going on:

These are very poor nations where the hunts take place. It is a major investment for a place like Kenya to operate a game preserve park, both in terms of land not being used for anything otherwise providing a tax base, and to pay for game wardens to control poaching. Which would otherwise be a HUGE problem - due to the various wars all over Africa, AK47s are plentiful. And believe me, a whole banana clip of 7.62x39 commie surplus battle ammo WILL take down an elephant. You want ugly, and suffering? Try to picture THAT.

There's only one way the the African governments can maintain the parks: charging HUGE fees for hunting permits, to pay for the park's upkeep.

A major African hunting trip costs in the ballpark range of $20,000 per hunter, and goes WAY up from there. That figure won't net you an elephant, fr'instance. They've tried "politically correct camera safaris" but tree-hugger environmentalists WILL NOT pay $30,000 to take a picture of *anything*, for obvious reasons. Rich Arab or US hunters will pay that to SHOOT something cool .

You want that ecosystem preserved, and the critters in it likewise? Then get your emotions under control.

The US is no different. You know all these various "wetlands" where game birds nest? Most are private property. What pays for their maintenance is the selling of duck blind spots for the season...usually over $1,000 a year. Same principle: the hunting pays to preserve the land, because it's the only way the land can generate income and still be a wildlife zone. So a few ducks die. Fine. The ducks as a species do better because despite moderate amounts of hunting, at least they have someplace to nest. And all the OTHER critters do too, from frogs to mice to...well, everything.

It's basic economics.

Get over it.
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Old April 28, 2002, 11:18 AM   #18
C.R.Sam
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Stickslinger, Art, Straightshot and others have said it.

Plus.

If it isn't a rock, it is food.

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Old April 28, 2002, 12:19 PM   #19
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I've watched most of those videos, and most of it seems to be jovial congratulations rather than "laughing" at the animals. Not to mention cultural differences... not everyone's an American.

Also keep in mind laughter is a great stress relief, and when just having put down something that could kill you in a split second if you screwed up - I'd sure be giddy about still being on my feet!
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Old April 28, 2002, 12:49 PM   #20
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There was only one video there that I found disturbing, theres one where before the guy shoots the animal he says "FU*K YOU"
obviously to the animal he is shooting.
But that was just one guy, that does not make me think bad about the whole site.
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Old April 28, 2002, 02:09 PM   #21
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After some thought, I'm moving this one to "The Hunt" forum.

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Old April 28, 2002, 03:45 PM   #22
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Remmy, you keep saying people don't get your point, but you keep falling back on the same point. You say you want to "keep the killing honorable."

The point everyone else is trying to make is that what those hunters are doing doesn't seem dishonorable to us.

Why is it dishonorable? Why is it wrong to kill something you yourself won't eat, for instance, as long as someone else keeps it from going to waste? There are people in Illinois who hunt whitetails solely to give them to Sportsmen Against Hunger, which gives them to homeless shelters. It's essentially the same thing.

If I might offer an opinion, it seems maybe this is your emotional reaction. Take a day or two to think about it and you might see their points more easily.

PS--Don't tell Rich how dishonorable he is unless you're sure!
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Old April 28, 2002, 10:22 PM   #23
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Maybe it's because I spent a lot of time around my grandparents' farming/ranching activities, but I have the attitude that meat's meat. Some animals might be prettier than others, but in the final analysis it's just food.

A hunter is a do-it-yourselfer in providing his meat. Meat from a grocery or in a restaurant just means you've hired somebody else to do the scut work for you.

Some people are ethical/moral/honorable in business, marriage or hunting. Some are not. You cannot rationally judge all of any group by the actions of just a few.

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Old April 29, 2002, 12:24 AM   #24
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Remmy,
As a point of fact Baboons are killed on sight as pests and varmints in parts of Africa. they are very destructive crop and live stock raiders.
If there was no fee regulated hunting of elephants there would be no elephants left in much of Africa. Too exotic??? How about over populated and starving to death in many places!
As long as we are agreeing with your point of view why don't we just stop hunting all together after all the Whitetail is an exotic and rare animal in my part of the country.
Honorable? I find hunting dangerous game far more honorable than than mere deer shooting after all deer don't kill hunters very often "Water Buffalo" actually they are Cape Buffalo, do, along with lions and elephants.
Third point of fact it's people like you that are going to kill hunting in the long run. Your highly emotional yet totaly ignorant attitude towards hunting is exactly the type of divison that groups like PETA and Fund for Animals will use to rip us apart.
As a matter of fact why don't you get off your a** and actually go to Africa and see for your self of what I speak. And not some frickin zebra striped tour bus in some glorified disney land park either but the real Africa.
I think remmy that we have a clasic case of to much pop cluture left wing television historian going on here. National geographic and Discovery channel only program what they think will sell advertising. The truth can rarely be wrestled from modern day programing.
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Old April 29, 2002, 08:49 AM   #25
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Unintended Consequences: Probably the worst enemies of rational interactions with wildlife--anywhere--were Felix Salter and Walt Disney.

Salter authored "Bambi", and we're all pretty much familiar with the rosy views of Disney's wildlife portrayals. Getting morals and aesthetics involved with your food supply might be a good way to lose weight, I guess...

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