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Old May 1, 2002, 12:14 PM   #26
six 4 sure
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A couple more questions

From the threads I've read doing my searches, I've determined 1. my 5.5" Blackhawk need a friend, and 2. His friend will most likely be a Bisley Vaquero.

Now some more questions. As well as buying a Vaquero in .45 Colt, I'd also like a lever-action. I have a few Winchester 94's, and like them a lot. However, I'm considering getting one of the Rossi (Legacy) Win 92 copies. Does anyone here happen to have a Rossi, and what do you think of it? I've heard good and bad, just wondering what opinions are out there.

Also, am I safe to assume any load that would be safe in a Ruger, will also be safe in a lever gun? I don't plan on loading any super hot Linebaugh loads.

Thanks again,

Six
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Old May 1, 2002, 12:36 PM   #27
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I love my Rossi 92. I have heard that some of the Rossi rifles have large chambers, but mine is not one of them.

Some lever actions are fine with the heavier loads that are meant for Ruger revolvers. Since you are talking about one of the stronger actions (a 92 model) you would be safe shooting Ruger loads. As a matter of fact, my Rossi gets occassional use as a short range whitetail gun (using stout loads). The weaker linkage of the Winchester 1873 pretty much limits it to cowboy loads. I wouldn't fire Ruger loads in a 73 even if it were a recently made replica with the strength of modern metals. Besides, it just wouldn't be right!

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Old May 1, 2002, 04:38 PM   #28
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Zot,

At one time yes, there WAS a .45 Short Colt.

It was never released to the commercial market, though.

So, the designation .45 Long Colt isn't exactly incorrect.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times this has been debated on this board, with the exact same results.

The big question is, though, why is everyone getting their knickers into a big old frothy wad over it?

When you get right down to it, there's a pretty vast number of cartridges in use today that have "alternate" nomenclature that is both used AND accepted in both the industry and consumer circles.

A good example is the 9mm Parabellum/9mm Luger/9x19. Only one of those nomenclatures is the "original and proper" nomenclature, as laid out by Georg Luger. Yet you'll see all of them stamped on various makes and models.
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Old May 2, 2002, 01:56 PM   #29
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KNICKER-BOXES

There are some real old ammo boxes (from different makers) labeled "45 Long Colt".

I don't know.............
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Old May 2, 2002, 03:51 PM   #30
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I didn't know there WAS a .45 short Colt,and I don't wear knickers
what would a frothy wad LOOK like?sounds grooss!
AND a .9mm Parabellum would be right? even tho Luger invented the weapon, he started with .30 Luger, everyone wanted a bigger
calober, WW1 and that was when it was named.
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Old May 2, 2002, 04:31 PM   #31
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Some of use like our big knickers in a frothy bocker!

Say that 10 times fast...I'll bet you you say "big knockers."
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Old May 2, 2002, 07:41 PM   #32
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".9mm Parabellum"

Point Nine? As in 9/10ths of a milimeter?

That's a mighty small round there, Zot.

The 9mm Parabellum came about earlier than WW I. Around 1902, IIRC.
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Old May 3, 2002, 09:35 AM   #33
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9mm Parabellum in 1902? Correct me if I'm wrong, Mike - -

---but I believe it came out in 1908, along with the German Service version of Georg Luger's toggle-top handgun. I think the German military wanted a wider bullet than the Swiss and a few others who'd already adopted the Luger Pistole. So - - - they took the 7.65 mm/.30 Luger cartridge and just blew it out straight, conveniently coming up with a nine-point-nada diameter projectile.

Some examples of German ammo boxes show "Kal. '08" for use in "Red Nine" Broomhandle Mausers, P-38s, and the various machine pistols.

I'm in the office and don't have a copy of Cartridges of the World handy.

Best,
Johnny

PS--9/10 of a millimeter would equal about .0394 inch, wouldn't it?
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Old May 3, 2002, 09:47 AM   #34
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Always having a COTW handy (I've found I need it whenever Mike posts on TFL ), I looked up 9mm Luger.

It was introduced in 1902 with the intro of the Luger auto. It was adopted by the German navy in 1904 and then by the German army in 1908.
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Old May 3, 2002, 01:21 PM   #35
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You're wrong, Johnny.

As Mal confirms.

The "Kal. 08" marking simply means that it is the caliber of ammo adopted in 1908 for standard Army use.

As with the United States at about the time, the German Army and Navy showed quite a bit of independence when it came to selecting small arms. There wasn't a unified military procurement system in place until almost WW II.
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Old May 3, 2002, 01:52 PM   #36
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I wouldn't load hot loads in the 45 Colt. I've never done it, but I've read in several publications that although guns such as the Ruger will handle hot loads, the BRASS may not since it was never designed for higher pressures. Better to buy a 44 mag Ruger Blackhawk or Super Redhawk for 44 Magnum as I did. Also, the rims of 45 Colt brass are rather fragile & tend to break off when lowering the ram after resizing & belling. I've found it helps to lightly lube every 4th or 5th case. For powder, Hodgdon "Titegroup" gives me excellent accuracy & load data is right on the can.
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Old May 3, 2002, 03:02 PM   #37
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hitnthexring

don't believe everything you read. With reasonable care, you can load heavy 45 Colt loads safely, w/o rims tearing off or brass that won't contain the pressure you encounter with these loads.
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Old May 3, 2002, 03:31 PM   #38
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Stop reading old articles! Since humans drug themselves out of the primordal sludge and stopped using BALOON HEAD CASES and started using SOLID HEAD CASES the .45 Colt has been completely capable of handling the hottest loads. In fact, several times various .45 Colt cases have been tested with strong chambers well over .454 Casull level loads without a single failure. I know John Linebaugh and I have spoken to him about the brass. He has fired absoltely insane loads with standard .45 Colt brass (in 5 shot guns) with regularity, and the cases fall from the cylinders with ease. The fact is, .45 Colt brass is so strong that its dangerous. The case can handle such loads that you will destroy the gun long before the brass shows any type of stress.

The .45 Colt is entirely capable of matching and beating the hot .44 Magnum loads, and in almost HALF the barrel length. I have done it, and so have many others.
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Old May 3, 2002, 03:35 PM   #39
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BTW, 21 grains of H-110 with a 300 or 325 grain lead bullet will be a good starter load for a Ruger. As a matter of fact, you don't NEED to go over that...but you can if you're careful.

I won't list what I've used, because hitnthexring won't believe me but here's a hint: Add 4.

Note: This load is a rediculously powerful load! It may blow your gun to smithereens! Itwill knock you on your ass so hard chinamen will try to plant flowers in it! Here there be dragons!Don't try it unless you're and absolute fool!

How's that for a disclaimer?
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Old May 3, 2002, 06:17 PM   #40
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Hi, Ladies & Gents:
For references on the .45 Short Colt.

1/ Sixguns by Keith, page 285.

2/ Shooting Times, November 1997, Mike Venturino's "The Shootist" column, page 14, subtitled 'According to Mike, those who have referred to it as the .45 "Long" Colt were correct; there really was a .45 "Short" Colt!'.

3/ Cartridges of the World, 9th Edition, page 306.

4/ My cartridge collection.

Bye
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Old May 3, 2002, 07:53 PM   #41
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JackM, I bet it looks like the one in the middle!



From left to right - .45 Schofield, original (rare as hen's teeth).45 Short Colt, .45 Long Colt
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Old May 3, 2002, 07:56 PM   #42
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And another neat find...

A box of Winchester-made .45 Short Colt ammo:

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Old May 3, 2002, 08:24 PM   #43
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"Note: This load is a rediculously powerful load! It may blow your gun to smithereens! Itwill knock you on your ass so hard chinamen will try to plant flowers in it! Here there be dragons!Don't try it unless you're and absolute fool!"

Laughing so hard I'm gagging!
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Old May 3, 2002, 08:29 PM   #44
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Jack,

I don't have COTW 9th edition.

What does it say about the .45 Short Colt?
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Old May 3, 2002, 08:33 PM   #45
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Hi, Gewehr98:
No, mine's REM-UMC, same as in Mike Venturino's column. The shape is right, with the Schofield length case and narrow LONG Colt rim. Hope Elmer's smiling, now that those young whippersnappers been put in their places.

Another one for the cartridge collection want list. Thanks.

Bye
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Old May 3, 2002, 09:38 PM   #46
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would this be considered a 45 short?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 45short.jpg (39.1 KB, 97 views)
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Old May 3, 2002, 11:25 PM   #47
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Hi, Mike:
Basically, Venturino & McPherson cover the same ground. The .45 S&W Schofield's rim was too big for the SAA Colt and the .45 Long Colt was too long for the Schofield cylinder. The .45 Colt Government or Short Colt was supposed to work in both, but it's rim was marginal for the Schofield's extractor. Keith said the old-timers claimed the load was inaccurate in the SAA Colt, but it was before his time. McPherson thinks it was available in the 1930's, but Keith said it was available before, during and after WWI. Keith could have tried them if they were available in the `30's.

Blackhorse, your English .450 could be any one of several .450s. What is the case length and overall length? COTW #9 lists a .450 Revolver with a case length of .690" and an overall length of 1.100". Case dia. is .475 & rim dia. is .510". It was also known as the .450 Short, .450 Adams & .450 Colt. McPherson notes that "Those not at least slightly confused by the profusion of large calibre British cartridge designations are a rare breed". <- Me

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Old May 3, 2002, 11:45 PM   #48
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JackM

case length.675
case dia. .475
rim dia .510
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Old May 4, 2002, 01:24 AM   #49
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Blackhorse,

The cartridge in your picture is almost definitely a .450 Revolver, aka .450 Adams, aka .450 Colt, aka .450 Short.

It was the first centerfire handgun cartridge to be adopted by the British military, in the 1868 Adams revolver.

COTW says that Colt and S&W both made revolvers chambered for the round.

Jack,

Thanks for the information, I was under the impression that this round never made it to the commercial market.
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Old May 5, 2002, 09:03 PM   #50
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Hi, Blackhorse:
I'll agree with Mike. It's most likely a .450 Revolver. The difference in case length isn't unusual even nowadays.

Bye
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