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Old April 26, 2002, 09:08 AM   #1
Cornbread2
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The only good thing about the inline craze.

The only good thing about it is that it now allows those of us that shoot real guns to get some great deals on used rifles.

I was in our local gunshop a few years ago when this nut comes in with a brand new Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54 cal.

He bought it new the day before and never fired it. He loaded it and went hunting. He saw a nice buck and missed him.

He declared the gun had to be a POS and I bought it for $100.
He bought a new inline complete with a Leupould scope and proceded to miss another deer the next day.


Another guy had a like new Tennese Mountian Rifle from Dixie in .50 cal. He was trying to shoot 10 year old Pyrodex with old Remington caps. He was getting hangfires and missfires so he thought he needed an inline. I bought it for $200. Guess what? His new inline would not work with this crap.

Almost every gun shop I go in now has a rack of what they call "them old sidehammer guns that no one wants".

In one of these racks I found a simi costom full stock rifle worth at least $1,000 that was marked $300. I was just a little too late. Someone has just made a down payment on it and he was holding it for them. They bought it for $250.

It seems that every idiot that hunts with a dirty gun loaded with Pryodex has missfires. They assume it is the guns fault and they trade it for an inline.

They won't take the time to learn the simple basics of shooting a real rifle and they think modern inventions will somehow make up for their ignorance and lack of shooting skill.

I see these guys every year just before season trying to zero their rifles. They cant even keep them on the paper. They will get a lucky shot in the black and declare it is zeroed and ready to hunt. I can shoot better groups offhand with my flintlock than most of these guys shoot off the bench.

When asked why they wanted an inline they say,"everyone know they are more accurate".

They will not clean it and load it the next morning and head into the woods. When it does not fire they assume that they need shotgun primers for ignition when in reality all they need is blaclpowder and a clean gun.

I used to really hate hunters and shooters like this and still do to some degree but I have to admit that it is to our advantage when we go to the gun shop.

We can now find racks full of good rifles for less than half of what they used to cost.

I just bought a like new CVA Hawken for a friend for $50.

Last edited by Cornbread2; April 26, 2002 at 12:22 PM.
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Old April 26, 2002, 11:28 AM   #2
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I did just the opposite. I shot a sidelock gun for about 20 years and owned several of them. I got a terrific deal on a Remington 700 inline, which I bought, and scoped. I shot it for a couple weeks and decided that it offered several disadvantages to my sidelock guns. The Remington is now in the back of my safe gathering dust.
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Old April 26, 2002, 12:43 PM   #3
Cornbread2
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Let see what the advantages of an inline are supposed to be.

They are eaiser to clean or so they say. That is a load of BS they are not.

They are more accurate. More BS.

They are more powerfull because some use 3 Pryodex pellets which equalls 150 grains. More BS. 150 grains will NOT burn in the short barrels of an inline. It wont even burn in a 41 inch barrel so how will it burn in a 26 inch barrel?

We are told that the old guns will not fire in the rain. I have a flintlock that will so surly people can make a caplock shoot in the rain. I suppose all those battles in the 1700s were called off on account of rain. Some of the biggest battles in history were fought in the rain with flintlocks.

The range of most muzzleloading hunting is less than 100 yards. You no not need a scope. If you cant see your front sight then your eyesight is bad enough that you dont need to be hunting.

If you can see and you do not have the skill to hit a deer at 100 yards with iron sights then you dont need to be hunting with anything.
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Old April 26, 2002, 02:03 PM   #4
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Care to elaborate on that statement, Cornbread?

I'll chalk that up as purely opinion, since that flies in the face of Gawd knows how many scoped muzzleloading rifles, let alone scoped centerfire rifles, that have been used for hunting inside of 100 yards ever since the advent of optics rugged enough for rifle use.

Bad eyesight, like my uncorrected 20/200, shouldn't be used as a discriminating factor over who should or shouldn't be in the woods with a rifle. That decision is best left as an exercise in common sense, chances are the individual with poor vision may have had to drive close to the hunting area, and needed legal vision for their driver's license, too. (It's called eyeglasses or contact lenses) Common sense also dictates that the shooter, regardless of their visual acuity, wouldn't think about picking up a gun and going hunting unless he could clearly identify his sights, his target, and what was behind or near his bullet's intended trajectory.

And if you want to beat up on the folks using optics on muzzleloaders at ranges past 100 yards, I suggest you go way back into the books and check out how effective Confederate snipers were with their .45 Whitworth muzzleloading rifles, outfitted with the Davidson scopes, particularly against Union officers who didn't think they could be targeted that far out...
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Old April 26, 2002, 05:07 PM   #5
Cornbread2
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Most of these inline guys claim they cant shoot without a scope.

Most cant shoot without a scope because they just can't shoot period.

Most of the deer killed in Ky during muzzleloader season is killed less than 100 yards. About 50% of these are killed at less than 50 yards.

If you can not see your front sight good enough to kill a deer at 50 yards then you are legally blind and have no busisness shooting.

I know several people that kill deer every year with a smooth bore musket with only a front sight out past 50 yards. They never miss. How could any decent shooter miss at that range?

These guys know how to shoot. They do not need technology to help them with something as simple as sight alignment and trigger pull. Those that do not have the ability to learn this or do not wish to learn this have to count on modern technology to get the job done.

A person has to learn the basics of shooting first. If you learn that you can hunt with any gun and hit your target.
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Old April 29, 2002, 07:15 AM   #6
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I'm a sidehammer kinda guy, too.

The way Americans think (I guess) is that they look for the easy way out. That's why we have remote controls and pizza delivery.

Most folks I know will not bother to develop any real skill with a weapon. I have seen guys new to shooting buy a brand new expensive gun, shoot it once and act surprised that it is not a laser. They immediately go in, buy a scope or get the gun modified or trade it in for something else. They don't seem to realize that shooting is a discipline and requires real work to attain and maintain the skill.
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Old April 29, 2002, 11:32 AM   #7
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Personally, I like my Parker-Hale 1853 Enfield musket in .58 caliber shooting mini balls. Traditional side hammer design, minis are fast to reload especially with home-rolled paper cartriges, has a pretty good punch that will knock Babmi for a loop, and the accuracy isn't too bad either. Never cared for in-line rifles myself and here scopes are still outlawed for deer hunting. I agree though that shooting muzzle loaders takes a little more effort than the in-lines with shotgun primers and variable power scopes.
Now I can understand folks like Gewer98 wanting to be able to use a scope when they have poor eyesight. However, I still believe that muzzle loading season should be left to the more primitive flint and percussion side hammer rifles.
Now some folks will claim that there shouldn't be any more hunting laws and to some effect, I'll agree with that. However, there should be limits that prevent the original intent of the sport from getting out of hand and into an equipment race like IPSC shooting for example.
Hey, in most places you can't use a breech loading Sharps rifle in the muzzle loader season because it's not loaded from the muzzle though you can use it in regular season. Why not leave it that you can't use an in-line muzzle loader in muzzle loader season but like the Sharps percussion rifles, you can use it in the regular season.
For folks with the bad eyesight like Gewher98, if they choose to use a scope, stick to an old-fashioned brass scope for the muzzle loading season and if they want to stick on say a 3-9 variable, that's fine too but only in regular season.
What we have to keep in mind is that hunting is a sport and like any other sport, there have to be rules although here they would be called game laws. Hey, I can't slam dunk a basketball like Micheal Jordan so would it be right to ask that the baskets be lowered to eyeball level so it would be easier to dunk the ball and feel better about myself? If people have a problem with taking the time to learn what it's like to shoot a real black powder rifle, should we then want to change the laws to make it easier for everybody to shoot the modern rifles with their in-line ignition and modern scopes?
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Old April 29, 2002, 04:39 PM   #8
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The only inline I own is one of the TC Scout Pistols in 50 caliber. I have to disagree with the idea that the inlines won't digest large charges of powder though. I think a lot of it has to do with the method of ignition, and the breech design the flame is going straight into the powder and often using hotter caps wheres the sidelocks have to clear a corner before the flame reaches at a somewhat disadvantaged angle. I regularly shoot charges of 80 grains behind maxi balls with the Scout and after shooting it over snowbanks I remain convinced that I'm getting a complete burn, or close to it. I've owned a few other sidelock .50 pistols that wouldn't come close to that performance. Also, before your too quick to trash the inline philosophy remember that it wasn't created in this century, target shooters of the last century applauded inlines for fine target shooting and sniping purposes, they were called underhammers.
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Old April 29, 2002, 05:39 PM   #9
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Just as an aside...

I'm 20/200 uncorrected in my right (target) eye. I've been wearing glasses since I was 12 - didn't want anybody thinking I was weaving all over the highway blind or shooting at noises each year when I hunt. I shoot just fine with iron sights, but I do want so bad to have a Confederate Whitworth sniper with the brass scope!
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Old April 29, 2002, 11:18 PM   #10
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I know what you mean. One of these days I'd love to get a P-H Witworth rifle but stick with the iron sights. The good thing about them is that the front sight is drift adjustable. My 1853 Enfield has the sights a little off and shoots a little to the right. I suppose I could try to cut in a new rear notch or move the front post over a little but I just do things the old fashioned way and modify my sight picture a little by bringing the front sight over to the left edge of the notch and she's right on then. But yeah, if those Witworths weren't so danged expensive, I'd think about getting one too.
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Old April 30, 2002, 08:36 AM   #11
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Alex

The old stories about the old timers shooting their guns over the snow to check for unburnt powder is only an old wives tale. It is pure BS.

There is no way 80 grains of blackpowder or pryodex will burn inside a pistol barrel. A lot of it burns outside the muzzle and gives you a lot of recoil and smoke. How it is ignited does not matter.

It takes a barrel at least 25 inches long to burn this much powder.

Even in a 41 inch .50 cal. barrel about 90 to 100 grains is the best load. Anything over that only makes more smoke and recoil and gives very little gain in velocity.

200 grains in a 41 inch barrel will have very little gain in velocity over a 100 grain charge. It will however kick like hell and make a lot of noise and smoke from burning outside the muzzle. It will not leave unburnt powder grains on the snow.
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Old April 30, 2002, 11:50 AM   #12
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If the powder is burning outside the muzzle, how do you get increased velocity and recoil ?
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Old April 30, 2002, 02:58 PM   #13
Alex Johnson
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Think what you like, I've got the TC (in addition to 15-20) traditional muzzeloaders and I've got a chronograph that says it will outdo any of my single shot side hammer pistols in the same caliber with the same powder charge, also, looking for unburned powder in a snow bank is one old wives tale that I happen to believe in. I've been involved with building, collecting, and shooting muzzleoaders for the last 15 years, all of that together has combined to give me a pretty good idea into the workings of muzzleloaders, There's a lot of variables to contend with when considering burn rate. Weight and caliber of the projectile, shape of the breech, type of ignition, type of powder, etc. all of these things will make a difference. But in the end if you enjoy hunting with sidehammers that's great, I do to. I'm only saying that the inlines present certain advantages that you might be overlooking and if it brings people into the sport of muzzleloading that's one of them.
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Old April 30, 2002, 03:33 PM   #14
Cornbread2
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Inlines do not usely get people into the sport of muzzleloading.

They only allow some people to hunt in a season where they do not belong.
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Old April 30, 2002, 04:07 PM   #15
Alex Johnson
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My first muzzeloader was a CVA inline, than the bug really bit me.

And what's this:

"They only allow some people to hunt in a season where they do not belong"

Seems to me this country was founded on the belief that all of us are created equal. Are you saying that muzzleloading hunters should only be allowd in the field if they choose to use a sidelock? If you are that sounds an awful lot like some gun control measures I've seen. If you see someone in the woods that is doing something wrong point it out to them, or at the very least report their inappropriate behavior. Gunowners in this country have enough problems with anti-gun types without throwing accusations and control measures against fellow shooters, whatever they prefer to shoot with. One other thing, If you pick up an issue of Muzzleblasts the official magazine of the NMLRA you'll notice a lot of the hunters the magazine features are using inlines, I don't think these people represent a bad portion of the muzzleloading fraternity.
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Old April 30, 2002, 04:47 PM   #16
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I suppose they could take it a step or two further...

Percussion sidelocks just aren't primitive enough for some muzzleloading fans, and there should be a flintlock season to the mutual exclusion of all others, right?

Where does it end, matchlocks? Holding lit punks to a touch-hole on the barrel?

And I thought the skeet shooters had an air of snobbery about them...
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Old April 30, 2002, 05:00 PM   #17
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There's enough room for all of us. While I don't own an inline (got plenty of flintlocks and percussions), one thing I do know is that for any of these guns (as well as modern guns), the shooter must take the time to find the best load for that particular gun. The failures described by Cornbread are failures of the shooter and not the gun (good for Cornbread for profitting from the laziness of others). Rather than exclude others from the muzzleloading sport, we should try to be more inclusive.

BTW, there is suppose to be an entry in a diary of Frederick the Great where he praticed with a telescope equipped rifle. American painter and militia lieutenant Charles Wilson Peale (they named a liberty ship after him - the ship eluded a U-boat attack during WW II) had a rifle scoped by David Rittenhouse during the American Revolution. So, there's room for scoped rifles before the American Civil War.

Breechloaders have been around for a long time too. While we all know about the Sharps of Civil War fame and the Ferguson of the Revolution, there was yet another gun issued to the Austrian chaussers during the 1760s. It was withdrawn from service for (not surprising) gas leaks.

Gee, what we need to upset our legislators are rifled Nock Volley guns. Seven 40 cal. barrels soldered together and chain fired. That'll put them obnoxious Bambis down - fer good too.
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Old April 30, 2002, 07:14 PM   #18
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Hunting is a sport, not a right. I think you should be able to hunt with whatever you want (on your own land) On public land they should be able to regulate what you can use to hunt, simply because it is a sport not a exercise in the 2nd amendment.
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Old April 30, 2002, 09:09 PM   #19
Cornbread2
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In Ky and most other states the muzzleloading deer season was started for muzzleloading enthusiasts and buckskinners to have a hunting season to themselves away from modern hunters using modern guns and equipment.

Inlines are modern guns. They are made from synthetic matereials and use modern scopes. Their owners even sometimes use smokeless powder.

They use modern JHP pistol bullets in plastic sabots behind modern powder ignited by modern primers.

Muzzleloading enthusiasts and buckskinners are the ones that spent the time and money to get the states to give us this season. It belongs to the buckskinners, living history renactors and muzzleloading enthusiasts not outsiders that have no idea what this is all about.

Pre 1840 what it is all about but I can see why some would want to use some type of Civil War musket since this is also reliving history.

Inline hunters are intruding on our season by bending the rules and flat out cheating. They know that they do not belong there but they are the type of people that will do anything to kill a deer.

The joy and the art of the hunt and the primitive camp means nothing to them. Some of these guys are just like the people that hunt out of the window of their trucks. They want to kill a deer so they can ride around and show it off to their drinking buddies and they want to do it the easy way.

The muzzleloading season is not about just killing something. It is a lot more to it than that.

If someone wants to hunt with a modern gun then they can use it in the modern gun season.
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Old April 30, 2002, 10:00 PM   #20
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Well, that sounds tolerant, open-minded, and full of good will.

NOT.

Thanks for the insight into your character, Cornbread.

Glad to know we don't fit into your world. I sleep a whole lot better knowing it, too.
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Old May 1, 2002, 09:48 AM   #21
Alex Johnson
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I'm finished with this thread.
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