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Old May 20, 2000, 10:35 PM   #1
Jedi Oomodo
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I have noticed in a couple of other recent threads in this forum a mention of keeping slugs for an HD shotgun as an alternative to buckshot. I was just curious as to when or why one would want to use slugs in an HD situation? While I'm at it, I want to use #4 buckshot for my shotgun, but the only shells of that shot size I've ever seen around here were 3" turkey loads. Would something like that be appropriate for HD?

------------------
Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

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Old May 20, 2000, 11:26 PM   #2
Glamdring
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I keep slugs on the butt cuff of my shotgun. If I go outside with the SG I want the precision and range that a slug offers. That would be more for helping a cop or someone else vs true HD.

No. 4 buck is fine for HD IMO. The mag will kick harder than the standard other than that I don't see any real difference.

I kept No. 4 magnum buck 2.75" as my buckshot load for over a year. I switched to Fed's tactical OO load about a month ago (I was finally able to get some) it patterns tigher in my gun and has much less recoil...about like 20 gauge in an 870.

I like slugs for general purpose load because they are not as range dependant as buck.
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Old May 20, 2000, 11:26 PM   #3
Oleg Volk
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My first five rounds are #3 buck (just about the only ammo I found in 20ga here) and the next two are slugs. The idea behind this is that, if bad guys aren't done for with five rounds of shot, they are probably behind cover. Slugs go through cover better than #3 buck.
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Old May 21, 2000, 01:52 AM   #4
Jedi Oomodo
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IOW, Oleg, slugs are for when you want to over-penetrate?

If 3" shells kick harder for no additional terminal effect against BGs, then I think it's pointless to use those for HD. Does any factory load 2.75" shells with #4 buck?

Speaking of 20ga., what company loaded the #3 buck you use in yours, Oleg? Do you have a product #? My wife wants a 20ga. so I guess I need to know what to put in that, too.

------------------
Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song, in America


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Old May 21, 2000, 06:50 AM   #5
curious
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I have some info on the places to get #4 buck shot (I favor that myself for hd). Sellier & Bell #4 buckshot was, and probably still is, available from www.cabelas.com for I think $75 for 200 rounds. I found www.wholesalehunter.com to have the best price for federal #4 buckshot tactical load. The box # H132 4B wholesale hunter can be slow in getting shells when they are out of stock but I have been very satisfied with them. Hope this is info you are looking for.
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Old May 21, 2000, 08:28 AM   #6
Dave McC
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Darn near any place that sells ammo should carry buck in 2 3/4" sizes and 20 and 12 gauges.

As for slugs for HD, it's a good idea of your House has a chance of invasion by bison,mastodon or Aliens from the Andromeda Galaxy of equivalent size and toughness. Otherwise, no.

For civil disturbances, and in other situations outside the house, a conditional yes for slugs, but then most situations would be served better by a rifle. Use the right tool for the job...
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Old May 21, 2000, 09:35 AM   #7
Glamdring
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Here in MN were it is often hard to find much if any Buckshot. It isn't legal for hunting anything here, except perhaps fox and coyotes.

And often what I can find on the shelf for buck shot is so old I would not buy it to shoot.

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Old May 21, 2000, 11:25 AM   #8
gunmart
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slugs can be used say in a hostage situation.when the bad guy reaches your kids before you do,as stated they can be used to fire through concealed positions throughout the house.there is a new slug coming out called (CHOKE).it will constitute a single projectile slug that will penetrate glass and light barriers but upon impact in gellatin or flesh will break up into a gazi;llion pieces like a glaser safty slug.these will be out and available in about three weeks.the great thing is that they are not as expensive as glaser sayty slugs.a box of 25 will sell for about $25.oo.email me and i will send you the info when it becomes available.thanks ed
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Old May 21, 2000, 05:02 PM   #9
Oleg Volk
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I found three brands of buckshot in 20ga 2 3/4", all #3 buck. Remington and Winchester are unplated, Federal is plated and patterns better. I keep in in my shotgun, Winchester 1300. If you get 3" shells you can get Federal in #2 buck but, after looking at sparse patterns, I decided to stay with #3.
Birdshot proved very disappointing in terms of terminal performance, IMO.
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Old May 22, 2000, 12:11 AM   #10
bruels
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The decision to use slugs depends on how your shotgun patterns with shot loads. Whatever shot you use, probably buckshot, you should see what pattern the barrel throws at varying ranges. By using a "realistic" humanoid silhouette target, you should be able to determine at what range the pattern has opened up to permit pellets to miss the target. At that range and beyond you would probably want to consider changing to slugs.

Each shotgun barrel is different. You should pattern each shotgun you own and determine what is the optimum range to go to slugs.

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Old May 22, 2000, 02:22 PM   #11
Glamdring
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IMHO using a human sized target for counting hits is a bad idea.

You want to decide what size target you will be shooting at (upper chest, heart, brain, etc). And then base your pattern criteria on that.

A couple of pellets in an arm or leg is not a very dependable stopper. That is one of the main reason I prefer slug over buck shot except at extremly close range. I don't just want to hit them "somewhere" I want to hit them somewhere that "counts". Even with a good pattern from a buck shot load I can aim for the heart but still miss it or only hit it with one pellet. While if I used a slug for the same shot the heart would be gone.
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Old May 22, 2000, 11:27 PM   #12
Oleg Volk
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The best I can tell is that buckshot pattern is more likely to be placed at least "mostly" over the point of aim when shooting fast. I use a grocery bag to simulate "goblin vitals" and basically view buckshot as perfect out to about 15 paces. past that, bring out slugs, out to about 30 paces. Past that, I am not confident of aiming reliably with a bead sight. However, the reason I got a bead sight is also the reason why I got a pump SG in the first place: to get used to a very common type of a firearms.

BTW, am I the only one who doubts that even 20 .25 pellets are reliable man stoppers?

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Old May 23, 2000, 09:10 AM   #13
Glamdring
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Oleg: nope I don't think "20 .25 pellets are reliable man stoppers".


Erick: "Then when / if I'm faced with a Shoot situation on the street and the guy is sideways to me at 10 yds, I know that if I do my part - all 9 pellets are going in"

Okay my BA is in Anthroplogy with a crimonology/forensics concentration. One of the presentations, by a BCA person, I will never forget was about a guy who killed his "girlfriend" with a 30-30 gun inside a house in northern MN. She was in the classic defensive posture when he fired the first TWO shots from his rifle at her. Both bullets basically broke up on her arm bones...both those wounds were survivable. But after the second shot she fell down from the pain/etc.

The goblin then walked up and put one in her skull which killed her.

IMO a 30-30 bullet penetrates much better than even OO buck. And female bones tend to be less dense than male bones, at least in the upper body. So I would not count on buck shot to handle torso shot if an arm is in the way. I feel buckshot is suspect for head shots also. I think from the front buck is likly to suffice but I wouldn't count on it getting inside bone.
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Old May 23, 2000, 09:57 AM   #14
Dave McC
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A coupla things here...

First, let's forget about "reliable man stoppers". NOTHING shoulder fired and operated is 100% sure fire guaranteed to stop someone, tho a shotgun in trained and capable hands comes as close as possible, THAT's why I use a shotgun, to tilt the odds as much in my favor as possible. I recall a well documented war story from the Nam mess where a GI took a 52 cal VC round( Soviet Bloc heavy machine gun similiar to the Browning 50) center mass, leaving a hole through him you could stick your fist in,who emptied his M-16, reloaded and ran that mag also before blood loss took him down, RIP.

Next, having some personal experience with thr 30-30 on deer, that example is not typical of terminal ballistics using that cartridge. Most deer hit in the shoulder with same are DRT or very, very close when dropping.

BTW, 150 gr 30-30 bullets tend not to exit on shoulder shots on whitetails, usually they're in the offside shoulder, nicely mushroomed.Md Whitetails are usually about people sized, but tougher...

Longest shot possible inside Casa McC is about 25 feet,and the 00 pattern from my insurance 870 is less than 5 inches at that range.

BTW, all those in favor of having slugs handy for better accuracy should compare POI of their slug of choice and their shot of choice. Slugs print higher than the 00 here. Your results may differ, but you won't know if you don't test.

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Old May 23, 2000, 11:25 AM   #15
Glamdring
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The 30-30 bullets broke up on the arm (not shoulder bones) of the female. I didn't get to see autopsy so I don't know which bones were involved. It also may have had to hit two or three bones.

If you hold your arms in a (slightly modified) Muay Thai guard postion to cover your chest and face you can interpose one or both bones of the forearm (radius & ulna) and also the bone of the upper arm (humerus) between most of your kill zone and an attack. And you may still have to contend with a rib or the Sternum.


I might also add that bone density is increased in response to compressive force, that is why your leg bones are very dense and strong vs arm bones, generally speaking. But if you Bench press your arm bones will be much denser than "typical". Thus making them even harder to break. Not to mention having more muscle as protection.

BTW deer limb bones are often mistaken for human arm bones by doctors and such because they are about the right size and shape (the joints are different) as a small female or adolescent.

One of the main tasks that the BCA does here in MN is review bones sent into them from various LE departments that they think are human.

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited May 23, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited May 23, 2000).]
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Old May 23, 2000, 08:52 PM   #16
Oleg Volk
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In other words, do we use buckshot to make the perp pause long enough for us to get a slug in?
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Old May 23, 2000, 10:36 PM   #17
Glamdring
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I used to believe in stopping power and high velocity. But after taking several forensic classes and having a medical examiner as a classmate and noticing an erie similarity in the reports from the few people I have met personaly that have seen the elephant...my opinion changed.

It is accepted that handguns are ineffective. Why use a longarm with loads that are less effective than handgun rounds? I think, don't know, that OO & OOO buck could break bones at close distances. I am fairly certain that birdshot would not reliably do so against people I have sparred against or lifted weights with. No. 1-4 buck is somewhere inbetween. Slugs should do so reliably.

Why the concern about breaking bones? Well we practice failure to stop drills (because we know failure to stop is fairly common) and guess what the projectiles have to defeat to work on either Cranial Vault shots or Pelvic Girdle shots?

Overpenetration is BS IMO for most applications since your very likely to miss the target with some shots anyway you should take this into account whenever possible.

I have stated before that home defense is defense of a prepared position. You can improve your cover, set lines of fire, etc. and if needed create backstops for your lines of fire. It doesn't take lots of money either if you have any time to put into it.


[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited May 24, 2000).]
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Old May 24, 2000, 10:24 AM   #18
Shawn Dodson
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I'd be very wary of using any kind of shotgun for "hostage rescue" type sitations, regardless of whether it's loaded with slugs or buckshot. Shotcups and wads often go where you don't want them to go and they can be just as deadly. The hard plastic wads used with Federal slugs are almost as rugged as the slug itself, and they travel a L..O..N..G way.

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Old May 24, 2000, 11:10 AM   #19
MB0R0MAN
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I have to agree with Shawn, despite the obvious disadvantages that come with moving around corners and tight spaces with a long gun. Chances of someone other than your target being hurt are very high. I do keep a Mossberg 590A1 loaded with game load in my room because well, you never know, BTW on the side saddle I have 5 rounds of 00Buck and 1 Slug.

I've made it no secret that I am biased against shotguns as a weapon to clear a house with. IMHO a handgun is the perfect weapon for this job, other than a 10" M4 carbine converted to 9mm with a Surefire 12PM taclight and aimpoint sighting system, (heh heh ) sorry about that.

Buckshot and slugs will eat through walls like they weren't even there. Even game load will punch a fist sized hole in a wall at close range.

Don't take my word for it, try it yourself, unload your shotgun, and do a dry run inside your home, clear every room in the house, every closet, bathroom, nook and cranny.

By reading some of the posts here it sounds like there are some people who are very well trained in the use of shotguns, so I'm sure they are the best judge on what to and what not to use.

But less experienced shooters reading these posts I fear will get the wrong idea.
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Old May 25, 2000, 12:07 AM   #20
Jedi Oomodo
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But will buckshot go thru BRICK? The way my house is arranged, I (usually) will not have to worry about a miss going into one of my daughter's bedrooms. The only time I might is if the HD situation occurs in MY bedroom, but there is a brick wall between mine and the next room down the hall. Also, quarters are tight in my house (~1200 sq ft) and with the way it's laid out, the longest possible shot (very back wall, in dining room --> very front wall in living room) is maybe 20ft, so most shots I would ever have to take would most likely be well within 10 ft. I am more concerned about a miss going into a neighbor's house, hence my question about brick. What are the chances that a charge of #4 buck could go thru 2-3 sheets of sheetrock, out my exterior brick wall, then thru a neighbor's brick, and then thru at least one more layer of sheetrock?

------------------
Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song, in America

-Creed, "In America"

The warrior kings lived by the sword/From hill to loch and dark fjord/Battling 'til his life he shed/leaving the throne/To the sons of Somerled...
Steve McDonald, "Sons of Somerled"

If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!

[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo (edited May 25, 2000).]
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Old May 25, 2000, 05:19 AM   #21
Dave McC
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I've seen a few folks killed with shotguns, forensic pics of others,and talked to a survivor or two.

A VC who received a full pattern of Milspec 00 went down right then.

A doper who took a 12 ga load at contact range mid abdomen stated he was unable to do anything but suffer.

A pic,taken at the scene of a homicide shows a fellow sitting on a couch behind a coffee table covered with empty beer bottles. He appears comfortable, except for the fact that his head is missing from the eyebrows up. The wall behind him is a gory mess.No other details given,except it was a shotgun w/ birdshot...

A talk with an acquaintance, a forensic pathologist who has done dozens of autopsies. He describes close range shotgun wounds as "bloody ratholes".His HD arrangments include a shotgun.
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Old May 25, 2000, 10:47 PM   #22
Mel Hoskin
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Jedi, You have posted an interesting question, don't have a good answer for you, except I keep a Benelli semi-auto 12 ga with an extended mag in the bedroom. Have 3 of the Activ 12 ga 3" penetrator rounds (duplex load of # 4 & 6 shot plus 5 Activ slugs loaded in it. Figure that by the time that it is empty, I should not have to worry about the BG. also have a Glock 27 within reach from the bed. If you are having a hard time finding a source for buck shot, have you looked at loading your own???Mel H <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jedi Oomodo:
I have noticed in a couple of other recent threads in this forum a mention of keeping slugs for an HD shotgun as an alternative to buckshot. I was just curious as to when or why one would want to use slugs in an HD situation? While I'm at it, I want to use #4 buckshot for my shotgun, but the only shells of that shot size I've ever seen around here were 3" turkey loads. Would something like that be appropriate for HD?

[/quote]



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Old May 26, 2000, 11:25 AM   #23
Glamdring
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Erick: I agree about using sights, I have them on my SG. Are you talking about setting a zero or about adjusting zero during a "situation"? No flame was intended. Just sharing the information I have been exposed and the impact it has had on me.

I like the SG for certain roles I just think that it is the wrong weapon for novice shooters for HD. I also think many people pick shotguns with shot to reduce over penetration and to compensate for marksmanship.

I think that 223 makes more sense for such use. Overpenetration is a small concern at close range with high/hyper velocity rounds.
223 ammo is cheaper and more enjoyable to shoot. And the 223 rewards good practice vs shotgun (to easy for even a skilled person to say well I hit the K zone even if was 5" from point of aim with buck or bird shot). With a shot loaded shotgun you always have to be aware of the range at every instant. While with a 223 and a 50 or 75 yard zero, for home defense, you will never need to worry about zero. I do not advocate "hostage shots". Unless you are out of sight of goblin and have a precision weapon and a rest.

Ah well, I know I don't follow the crowd on everything. I won't do room clearing except as a team member for example in training. I believe that one does react as one trains since I have done so myself. If I train to take hostage shots with a SG, handgun, or even a AR/Mini 14 chances are if TSHTF I will respond that way. I want to retain my fear of clearing a room alone...it is a stupid & dangerous thing IMO. Not to mention even if you can deal with the goblins involved, with only one person they can get away(just climb out a window and if they are really clever wait for you to exit building because you guard would be down)...and if them getting away is okay why expose yourself to the risk? Get a dog, get CCTV, get some buddies to help, use lsitening devices or noise generators.
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Old May 28, 2000, 02:35 AM   #24
Jedi Oomodo
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Thanks everyone for your replies. I believe I'll go ahead and go with that #4 buck- I'll just look harder at the ammo shelves than I have in the past. I don't know of any cover in my house that would necessitate(sp?) slugs, but I'd rather have 'em and not need 'em than need 'em and not have 'em (gee, kinda like why I have a gun in the first place ).

------------------
Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song, in America

-Creed, "In America"

The warrior kings lived by the sword/From hill to loch and dark fjord/Battling 'til his life he shed/leaving the throne/To the sons of Somerled...
Steve McDonald, "Sons of Somerled"

If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
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Old May 28, 2000, 11:48 AM   #25
Glamdring
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jedi Oomodo:
While I'm at it, I want to use #4 buckshot for my shotgun, but the only shells of that shot size I've ever seen around here were 3" turkey loads. Would something like that be appropriate for HD?
[/quote]

Are you sure the 3" No. 4 is buckshot?
No. 4 Buck isn't used for turkey hunting is it? That would be No.4 shot for turkeys.
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