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Old May 8, 2000, 10:43 PM   #26
jthuang
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Patrick, don't ditch the PG stock just yet if it's a full stock with a PG. The PG-only "stock" is the one that's basically useless (except on breaching guns).

As Gabe Suarez notes in The Tactical Shotgun (he's a member of this list, hopefully he will chime in), the underarm assault position is useful for clearing situations. Now we all know that houseclearing is to be avoided whenever possible but if you have kids sleeping down the hall, you're gonna have to gather them into the saferoom so you might as well learn to do it the correct way (i.e., take a defensive shotgun class or at the very least read up on it).

A PG with full stock will make assuming the underarm assault position easier than a standard stock. This is illustrated in the Tactical Shotgun -- an excellent book, BTW.

Ideally, a home defense set consists of at least one handgun and one long arm. The handgun is king for close-in houseclearing. But not everyone has enough cash to afford both -- and in some jurisdictions, handguns are all but illegal (cf Chicago, IL). So sometimes houseclearing must be done with a shotgun, and the PG full stock can make it easier.

Justin



------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Old May 9, 2000, 11:45 AM   #27
Dr.Rob
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at 30 feet breath mints are lethal fired out of a 12 gauge. At 100 feet its difficult to determine if a person is a threat, at 21 feet a knife is as dangerous as a gun.
A rifle (not a specialized room clearing mp5 or sbr) is meant for long range precision shots. A shotgun is designed for 'close up" and personal.. a handgun is a compromise because your shotgun doesn't conceal easily. I'd NEVER pick a rifle over a shotgun inside my home, unless my shotgun was broken.

If you know your pattern.. and know the ranges (like inside your house) there is a VERY good chance your target would get hit by the shot "en-mass" before it has a chance to spread. Even #9 will act like a slug if its within 10 feet. This is what makes shotguns so lethal. They make BIG holes, or a LOT of holes.

The are also FAR more PC than the average "sport utility rifle" and cost less to replace if your gun is confiscated by the PD. Frangible shells? tracers? AP bullets? Forget all that. You dropped a bad guy with your bird gun full of bird shot, or your deer gun full of buckshot. Simple. Forget tac-slings, side saddles, heat shields and bayonet lugs.. spend your money on shells and learning how to shoot.

My 2ยข

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Old May 9, 2000, 06:33 PM   #28
mooser
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at work we carry the benelli m1-90 entry gun and an ar15-dissipator. i also like my mp5-40. all are decked out with night sites, taclites, 3pt slings, etc. i clear houses and business buildings all the time. i only use my handgun because it is handy, by being with me all the time. given the opportunity i would opt for a shoulder weapon. i don't find any of our shoulder weapons confining. a lot of this comes from good tactics of how to employ these weapon systems in hallways, rooms, stairwells, etc. if i have specific knowledge of what i'm going into i would choose the weapons specific as to what the circumstances are. i do prefer the carbine over the shotgun, but would opt for the shotgun in specific situations. what i like about the carbine is that it is short, light,
easy to hit with, i only have to account for one projectile leaving the barrel at a time,
the .223 will penetrate soft body armor, and usually penetrates less that most handgun and shotgun loadings.

just my $.02 worth
sully http://defensive.edge.home.att.net
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Old May 10, 2000, 10:28 AM   #29
Dave McC
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Great post, Rob,but I think I've heard that breath mint thing before(G)....

Lots of differing opinions on this. Maybe this is something where there's no pat answer.

My Grandmother, in her 70s, was worried about muggers and home invasions. The 'hood was changing, and some seniors had been victimized. She wanted to learn to shoot,and insisted that her father's gun was enough.

That was an Iver Johnson top break 32, nickle plated of course. I had a smith look it over, bought the appropriate ammo,and took Gram and my Great Aunt to the range. After a couple of trips, she could hit a volleyball across the room with that artifact, and so could Aunt Holly.

Obviously, turning them loose with a magnum, shotgun or AR was a bad idea.

And maybe less extreme examples are here. Some folks do fine with any weapon, some excel with just one kind.I'm fairtomiddlin' with all of them, but pick the shotgun for its massive energy transfer,and the 870 for its reliability.

There's more than one road,the problem is picking the best one for YOU!!
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Old May 10, 2000, 01:37 PM   #30
Dr.Rob
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Yes dave i believe i was QUOTING you.. i do however still prefer the sectional density of certs over tic-tacs.

And YES with proper training and learning how to not "crowd cover" a long gun can be far easier to manuver than you think.

i still think the m-1 carbine is a good choice for a long arm (in a n HD scenario) IF loaded with softpoints.. its not terribly un pc looking inexpensive and fairly robust and light. but its NOT a shotgun.

Out in the open.. give me a robust rifle with a 30 round magazine and a celtic cross to keep me safe... but in the house its a shotgun backed up by a 45 auto full of nasty
hollowpoints.
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Old May 10, 2000, 03:48 PM   #31
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Well, i pick what ever has the most ammo loaded in it. (like not the one with the empty clip) and the easiest to get to. and i don't sit and wait, they are infringing on my life and safety, i have had handgun training and many principals apply to all guns, like crowding cover.

also, i live out in the country between 2 mountains, no problem with over penetration. our major thefts are gasoline, tires and anything outside at night not tied down. however we personally haven't had any problems (when people think you are nuts it helps) with things being messed with.

look at your situation, and decide what is right with you, if needed go through a cenerio with a loaded rifle, see how easy/hard it is to clear a room while being concealed.

------------------
454Casull when it absolutely Has to be destroyed.
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Old May 10, 2000, 05:05 PM   #32
Spectre
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Oleg,

I grew up hunting small game. A Mossberg 500 tends to just kinda grow into my hands, and if I can hit an running rabbit at 30 yards, I'm fairly certain I can hit an assailant at 10...but...
I like to think in terms of worst possible situations I could reasonably be facing. With that in mind, I choose my M1 Carbine with 15-round mag and spare mag, because I can address more targets in much less time th an with my 500 (or any shotgun). Not only that, but I can take a close-range hostage/SMOE (Small Margin of Error) shot without hesitation. I am reluctant to do that my 500's, unless using my GR and slug- in which case I have already given up the only advantage of having a shotgun.
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Old May 11, 2000, 04:15 AM   #33
oberkommando
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I dont worry about overpenetration as I have caused all the nearby neighboors to move already.

Would choose M1 Super90 and 1911 as back up.
Will shoot 000 OR Brenneke 600grain hard alloy slugs. Dont want no one hiding behind sofas,walls, or cast iron sinks thinking they are safe.

Have five shot 45colt with 300gr hard cast at around 1600 if the above fail.
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Old May 12, 2000, 03:51 PM   #34
FinnishForce
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Hi, I'm new here and just wanted to say this is a great forum.

Oleg, IMHO the .30-06 and .308 are too large calibers for HD, too much recoil, too much penetration. I have no experience of the .223 so I can't comment on it, but I love a Valmet AK in 7.62x39 (folding stock, tritium night sights) for CQ work. More than adequate power and handles very nicely, good ammo capacity (30rds/clip). Penetration is the only concern, see North Hollywood for examples of 7.62x39 at work. Other favorites of mine: Remington 870 folding stock & PG & 00 buck or handgun/flashlight combo.

BTW does anybody know about the "new" 5.45mm that the russians use in their newer assault rifles? Please email me if you have info about it. Thank you.

FinnishForce
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Old May 12, 2000, 03:54 PM   #35
Oleg Volk
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I just finished reading a book about the Chechen war and 5.45 is disliked. Too little penetration of cover, too many ricochets.
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Old May 12, 2000, 06:44 PM   #36
6forsure
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oleg, what's the title of the book? is it translated into english. thanks
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Old May 12, 2000, 11:30 PM   #37
Bennett Richards
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I think that the SG is probably THE most devestating close range weapon in existance. If you compare the felt recoil from a 12G with 00 and a 308 the 12G is far more punishing... This effect translates to the target.
For longer ranges I prefer a good proven battle rifle in 308.. An FN-FAL or a Galil...plenty of range and power.

Always a Kimber compact 45 as a backup... for HD the Kimber and my 870 Marine are the ticket.

Ben
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Old May 13, 2000, 09:28 AM   #38
Edmund Rowe
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If I'm home and I'm going to the mailbox or I have less than 5 seconds of warning, it's usually a handgun within reach. The handgun is a very underpowered firearm, but it IS very portable.

If the situation gives me 30 seconds of warning and I think the danger is at living room or garage-width distance I'll get the shotgun in ADDITION to the handgun (tucked in my waistband). This assumes a short duration fight at the most.

If I think the danger is outside and is as far or farther than my property line, then it's a rifle day. Or, if it looks like a longer duration fight (that must be a REALLY bad day!) I'll take the rifle.

The 3 don't replace each other, they complement each other, with some mission overlap.

Edmund

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Old May 13, 2000, 09:41 AM   #39
Dave McC
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One small point....

Tiger Woods has more than one club in his bag. Each of his(or any golfer's) clubs has conditions where it works best. Same for HD guns.

Wife and Daughter(20) don't care much for shotguns, so there's alternatives for them w/o the kick.

Anyone who pontificates that Weapon X is the "Ultimate" HD weapon is full of it, even if it works very,very, well for him/her/it.
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Old May 14, 2000, 04:32 PM   #40
Oleg Volk
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 6forsure:
oleg, what's the title of the book? is it translated into english. thanks[/quote]

No, but I did post the URL in General last week. I will write up an overview, some interesting commentary on tactics and urban warfare.
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Old May 16, 2000, 03:10 AM   #41
Glamdring
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.Rob:
If you know your pattern.. and know the ranges (like inside your house) there is a VERY good chance your target would get hit by the shot "en-mass" before it has a chance to spread. Even #9 will act like a slug if its within 10 feet. This is what makes shotguns so lethal. They make BIG holes, or a LOT of holes.
Dr.Rob
[/quote]

Have you pattern tested your SG with the #9 at 10 feet?

I have pattern tested No.4 2/75" mag buck and 9 pellet 00 tactical buck both by Federal out of my shotgun. At 5; 10; 15; 20; & 25 paces. I use paces because that is how I have measured the ranges inside my apartment.

In my apartment I have a very postive backstop if I keep my lines of fire where they are supposed to be since I have brick exterior walls.

I have found with my SG that I would not rely on No.4 buck past 5 paces or the Tactical OO past 10 paces if I am worried about over pentration or stray pellets. The patterns are effective enough past those ranges for at least another 5 paces to put someone down, but there will be a lot of buckshot going around the target even if I hit them dead center.

One or two steps can make a huge difference in a SG pattern.

I prefer to KNOW where my shots will hit when the trigger is pressed. I prefer slugs or carbines for most situations. And for people who won't pattern test their home defense load at various ranges, which covers a lot of people IMO, I think the 5.56 or M1 carbine or such is much better. Not to mention more comfortable to shoot.

YMMV
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Old May 16, 2000, 08:46 AM   #42
FinnishForce
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Oleg, I tried to find the title in General but couldn't. Could you please post it here or email it to me? Thank you.

FinnishForce
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Old May 16, 2000, 10:58 AM   #43
Oleg Volk
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FinnishForce:
Oleg, I tried to find the title in General but couldn't. Could you please post it here or email it to me? Thank you.

FinnishForce
[/quote]
http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/CHECHNYA/byloe.txt
(I will translate interesting exerpts from it later)
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Old May 16, 2000, 11:45 AM   #44
Dr.Rob
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ten feet.. for me that's three steps (i have a long stride) and three steps away from the barrel of my shotgun there is a ragged hole in the cardboard about an inch across with a few "flyers" and sometimes a hole where the wad went through the cardboard. At 20 feet with #9 that pattern opens up to about a six inch diameter of dense shot with flyers extending out here and there. TRY shooting steels at 15-20 yards with birdshot and you'd be amazed how many people MISS.

Shot guns are not laser beams or hand grenades.. You still have to put the sights on target to make the shot go where you want it to.

With a hostage maybe a rifle or carbine would be better.. but I don't anticipate that being an issue.

Do you know where your rifle shoots at 10 feet? At 15? if you are shooting an Ar15 your eyes are 2.5 inches above the bore line. at ten feet you have a very good chance of getting a shoot through (your hostage) if you don't hold high. 2.5 inches is a LOT of leeway when your adrenaline is up.

Hope None of us ever has to make a hostage shot.. get a big dog to aid in your home defense to prevent this.

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Old May 16, 2000, 12:41 PM   #45
Glamdring
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.Rob:
ten feet.. for me that's three steps (i have a long stride) and three steps away from the barrel of my shotgun there is a ragged hole in the cardboard about an inch across with a few "flyers" and sometimes a hole where the wad went through the cardboard. At 20 feet with #9 that pattern opens up to about a six inch diameter of dense shot with flyers extending out here and there. TRY shooting steels at 15-20 yards with birdshot and you'd be amazed how many people MISS.

Shot guns are not laser beams or hand grenades.. You still have to put the sights on target to make the shot go where you want it to.

With a hostage maybe a rifle or carbine would be better.. but I don't anticipate that being an issue.

Do you know where your rifle shoots at 10 feet? At 15? if you are shooting an Ar15 your eyes are 2.5 inches above the bore line. at ten feet you have a very good chance of getting a shoot through (your hostage) if you don't hold high. 2.5 inches is a LOT of leeway when your adrenaline is up.

Hope None of us ever has to make a hostage shot.. get a big dog to aid in your home defense to prevent this.
[/quote]

What kind of choke do you have? That is a very tight pattern compared to what my gun shoots. At 10' I get about a 2.5" group with the 9 pellet OO buck Fed tactical load.

I agree with the bird dog part...fact is I have suggested using a dog for house clearing to some friends. Just train it enough so it will let you know if a friend or unknow person is in the house. Once you know that you can call for backup.

I don't think a non LEO has any need to try a hostage shot or house clearing. If you clear a house by yourself what prevents the Goblins from extracting before you get to them? What if they take hostages with them?
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Old May 16, 2000, 03:22 PM   #46
Dr.Rob
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that's with federal low brass target/clays load and a rifled tube out of a remington 870 12 guage with a 21 inch deer barrel.. it seems like in most cases at 10 feet the wad and shot are traveling together.. with larger shot the pellets spread faster.. which is why so many people recommend #4 buckshot.. it spreads quickly but is still large enough to be lethal.
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Old May 16, 2000, 06:35 PM   #47
Bdog5150
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I too choose a PC4. That would be for the bump in the night scenario, along with the P94 on my hip. That 180 gr. bullet at over 1300 fps can sure do some damage.
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Old May 18, 2000, 01:52 PM   #48
Spectre
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My dog first searched the house to verify an unfamiliar guest was gone when she was 6 months...on her own...
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