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Old March 23, 2000, 03:17 PM   #1
Dave McC
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Some years ago on the Old Prodigy Shooting Sports BB, Dean Spier posed some scenarios and the folks would analyse and add their two cents to the thread. Here's one I wrote for that, slightly adapted to the shotgun.

Folks are invited to read, analyse and figure out what they'd consider the best response, and post their opinions and views.

Here's the scenario....

It's a beautiful fall day, and Squirrel' season is open, along with Dove, rabbit and so on. Filled with an urge to return to the carefree days of youth and get in a little small game hunting. With a glad heart and a handful of shells you drive to a friend's family farm,where you've permission to hunt. The family now lives elsewhere,and the land is farmed by a neighbor. You park behind the barn and head into the woods with the shotgun .

The farm backs up onto a State forest, which you can also hunt. As you meander along, you spot and shoot various small game, and a pleasing weight hangs from the bag in back of your hunting vest. You enter an area more open than forest,and you notice some shrubs show signs of cultivation. As you recognize that they are Marijuana plants, a shout makes you turn and you see several men in camo some distance away,and they are armed with shoulder weapons. A shot rings out and leaves near you fall as you turn and run.

You've a handful of game loads, and two rounds of buck with you,left over from deer season. As yuo flee, you realize you've lost track of the way back, and your cell phone is back at the car.

Now, handle it.....
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Old March 23, 2000, 04:41 PM   #2
Oleg Volk
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Since you probably cannot outrun them, try to plug one with buckshot and get a better weapon? Not sure the excercise is survivable.
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Old March 23, 2000, 05:02 PM   #3
Shin-Tao
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Run to cover, return fire.
Fall back again to cover, return fire. Use the buckshot first, then the gameloads.
Repeat until they break or you die.
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Old March 23, 2000, 05:22 PM   #4
John Overbey
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Definately a bad situation. You would be in (assumed) unfamiliar territory, are out-gunned, and out-numbered. Plus there is no way of knowing whether the ones you SAW were the only ones THERE. You could be running straight back to their camp/home/etc. Your best bet in survival would be to take cover - if possible, find something that gives natural cover on one or more sides (cliff face, cave, etc. and hide. Use this time to try to gain some idea of the situation and load your weapon and prepare. Do NOT try to find them. If a confrontation is unavoidable, you must take the only advantage available to you by making them come to you - YOU pick the location. If at all possible though, evade and escape. These folks are more than likely more interested in protecting their secret and avoiding "legal entanglments" than actually hunting you down. As mad as I'd be about being shot at, it's not worth dying just to appease my ego. Once the threat has passed, you will probably be able to think more clearly and find your way back out. Once out, contact the authorities ASAP. Of course, some of these issues could have been avoided by 1. not wondering around in condition white, 2. carry a side arm, 3. always keep at least a compass, if not a GPS and or cell phone on you. Just my thoughts...
-John

[This message has been edited by John Overbey (edited March 23, 2000).]
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Old March 23, 2000, 05:33 PM   #5
Oleg Volk
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Hmmm...I had assume, from the description, that the enemy are DEA and closer proximity would be better (hoping the enemy would try to avoid friendly fire.) Breaking off would be hard because of dogs and aircraft that they would call in...
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Old March 23, 2000, 05:33 PM   #6
Shawn Dodson
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In 1985, I was doing pre-deer hunting season scouting of a few clear cuts over on the Olympic peninsula in Jefferson County, Washington. I was armed with an AR-15 at the time. As I was walking down a game trail along the edge of a clear cut, I noticed a real pretty and unusually green and full "tree" about 50 yards in front of me. This clear cut was about 3-5 years old and had been re-planted with seedlings that were approximately the same size as this unusual "tree". The "tree" was just off the left side of the trail and as I got closer I saw a circular trench around the base of the tree, and I thought to myself "Gee, it looks like somebody's been watering that tree. How odd?" As I continued to close distance with this "tree" I suddenly recognized its distinctive marijuana leaves. Then just as suddenly I realized I'd stumbled into a large patch of dope plants. I was standing in the middle of dozens of plants; there were plants all around me. The hackles on my neck raised and I thought to myself, "Oh, sh*t." I immediately froze in my tracks. Everywhere I looked I saw marijuana. I quickly surveyed the area, didn't see anyone, and I slowly turned around and left the area, following the same path I'd come in on. Fortunately the plants were unguarded and I didn't encounter any booby traps.

I left the area, contacted the sheriff's office and escorted the responding deputy out to the area. A team of officers came back the next day and ripped out all the plants.

Scary. I've never returned to that particular clear cut.

------------------
/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com

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Old March 23, 2000, 05:48 PM   #7
SEAN WILLIAMS
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WOW, good question. I would evade, I would like to think that I would get low, run, while trying to keep trees and bush between myself and the BG's, only returning fire from behind cover. since i have light loads, i would try to make every shot count, while also trying to keep their heads down, so i can shoot and move, shoot and move(shoot one, load one). with a little luck i could either find a rangers station, or find my way back to the road or even my car. If not, I would try to get a better weapon, one of theirs.
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Old March 23, 2000, 05:51 PM   #8
jthuang
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First thing to do is to drop your game bag and run for hard cover, using the surrounding vegetation (i.e., the shrubs) as concealment. A sturdy tree should be close by (at least I should hope so, in a state forest). It would take one heck of a shoulder weapon to punch through a thick tree, assuming the shooters are not using Barrett .50 BMG rifles.

If we can get away from them cleanly (they are "some distance away" but that is rather subjective), then do so. We don't really have the tools or ammunition to get into a protracted gun battle -- even the buckshot is only good to about 25 yards and we've only got two rounds of buck.

If escape and evasion is not possible, once behind cover I'd yell something to the effect that this isn't a deer they're shooting at! Seriously, these guys in camouflage are not necessarily bad guys -- they could be hunters too. Just because they happen to be armed, in camouflage and around a marijuana patch (after all, that's the same situation we're in, right?) doesn't mean they're automatically goblins. And since escape and evasion is not possible, it's best to try and ascertain whether they truly are hostiles -- especially since we are outgunned and outmanned.

If they were hunters and we were able to escape cleanly, we win. If they were goblins and we escaped, we win. If we could not escape and they were just hunters, they will stop shooting and we win.

Now if they are goblins and we could not escape, we're in a bit of a pickle. By yelling we just gave away our position, but IMHO the risk of defusing the situation (if they were hunters) was worth it.

Problem now is that we're outgunned and outmanned. Per Sun Tzu's Art of War, we have to take up a defensive position where we can funnel them into our kill zone. Remember, one man holding the mountain pass can defeat an army (or something to that effect). Since the bulk of our ammunition is birdshot (short-range stuff), we need to find a kill zone with hard cover and a short lead-in.

Another alternative, which I would not choose as my first choice, would be to try to separate one of the goblins, take him out and get his shoulder arm. If goblin he is, his shoulder arm (in terms of ammunition and weapon) will most likely have more reach than our hunting arm loaded with field loads. Using that enhanced firepower would be nice, but that would involve separating the group of goblins and picking off an isolated straggler -- which is hard to do when you are on unfamiliar ground (we lost our way).

Move from our original hiding place and take up a defensive position behind hard cover and wait for them to come. Make sure the round in the chamber (this is no time to be carrying your gun around in cruiser ready) is buckshot, with buck as the next round as well.

I would move from my defensive position only if they started to flank my position. When moving, keep low and try to stack the goblins. I would start firing when they reach around 40 yards -- I know that buckshot is typically listed by Suarez and Farnam as good to 25 yards but IIRC that figure is for all 9 pellets of 00 buck hitting a man-sized target -- in this case, I can deal with a little spread to put their lead man down.

Once their lead man is down, I don't see them sticking around for a fight. Criminals rarely want to deal with prey that fights back. In this case, I realize that the goblins will want to prevent persons from finding the location of their hash field but I doubt they will be willing to risk their lives if one of their members has gone down. Goblins are not battle hardened veterans looking to take a hill for king and country -- put one down and I suspect the rest will lose heart. So to that end, concentrate fire on their lead guy.

And try to get out as quickly as possible.

Justin

------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Old March 23, 2000, 06:03 PM   #9
Oleg Volk
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And to think that I was paranoid for always keeping some ammo in reserve when at a range (i.e. never use up all I have). One time I walked around and plinked with a .410 I ended up stashing half-dozen slugs out of habit...
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Old March 23, 2000, 06:32 PM   #10
Art Eatman
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There's always a first time, I guess, but I've never "lost track of the way back". I never enter a clear-ish area from heavy cover without studying the country, first. I've almost always seen other people before they see me--I'm always hunting. Always. In the woods I'm always in condition yellow. I just can't relate to the scenario.

I'd like to believe that the shooters aren't law enforcement. But, city boys...Anyway, I'm going for cover and then away at my best rate of speed for as long as I can. When I stop to rest, I'm an ambusher with a real bad attitude, but I'll get up and head homeward again. I won't actively go hunting. And then it's telephone time.

Quien sabe, Art
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Old March 23, 2000, 09:03 PM   #11
dZ
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you're wearing your 100 square inches of florescent orange right?

No matter who the other guys are, they should figure out you are a hunter

If they are dope growers, their warning shot just chased you off.

If they are Feds they just kinda shot first with out warning. Expect more turtles

Hit the cover
inside out the jacket
leave the hat on a shrub

move to more cover
sprint to 50 yards out
bury yourself in a hemlock with a view of where ya left the hat

wait
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Old March 23, 2000, 09:03 PM   #12
Big Bunny
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I have found Mary-Jane when hunting and fossicking in OZ and usually move out of the area fairly quickly, without disturbance of the "crop", but I never have seen anyone yet in the area.

On return to such an area I try to have a firearm for each person in the Land Rover, especially if they stay behind at camp and are female.
As we are usually in thick bush, good visibility sometimes less than 10M, I favour a M94 30/30W(heavy factory loads), 38Spl S&W(a Klinton Klone now ?)revolver and a 12GA with #4(British)and buck 00, but a .410 with 3" #8s suits a woman, even with little experience of shooting I have found.

Once some hippies tried to stop ingress to an area by falling 3 trees over the public track. It took the Stihl chainsaw, but we went through and no problems either at the other end or coming out.

If they want to grow it is OK by me, just leave us alone .....

------------------
***Big Bunny***
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Old March 24, 2000, 06:54 AM   #13
Dave McC
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Thanks for the responses, folks. Most of you seem real world oriented,and likely to survive this situation. A coupla things....

First, I didn't have any LE,DEA,etc, in mind when setting this up. Tho, shooting at someone just for being there does sound like ATF. The armed strangers ARE goblins.

Second,there's no simple, clear answer. A young, fit person can cover way more country than me, in my semi decrepid 50s. Some folks have a better idea of location that others, and in most cases, I could figure out the way back even after the stress of this incident.

And someone mentioned a sidearm. In the open woods, a shotgun beats the heck out of even my cherished GM for effectiveness,as long as the ammo is there. Maybe a few slugs would have been nice to have here, but carrying them outside of deer season might cause the DNR folks to question your motives.

For me, this is a case of finding the thickest, nastiest stuff I can and hide in it until dark. While I'm not much of a runner, I'm pretty good in the woods at my own pace.

So, I'd make my way back to the car, and CAREFULLY approach it just in case a goblin was smart enough to find it and stake it out.

Moral:

Condition Yellow works anyplace, and always have a plan B.

Would you all like another problem? I've a coupla of ideas...
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Old March 24, 2000, 03:35 PM   #14
Dave McC
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Eric,a pistol's what gets carried when circumstances rule out a shoulder arm. And, even paranoid ol' me doesn't carry a backup gun while squirrel hunting, even tho them critters are terrible when wounded(G). Might start tho, just in case...

Another scenario coming up in a few days, I'd like to see further contributions on this one....
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Old March 24, 2000, 06:29 PM   #15
gunmart
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rule #1always carry a side arm.
rule #2always scout out an area with a partner before going in alone.
rule #3 repeat rule 1 and 2.

just my logic!!!!!!
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Old March 24, 2000, 06:33 PM   #16
gunmart
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all jokes aside.the situation would dictate the tactics but i might consider setting fire to the crop if i was being fired upon.yes you might destroy alot of timber but at least you would know the calvery is coming sometime!!!!!!

creating several fire lines between you and the enemy could work to your advantage.
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Old March 24, 2000, 10:47 PM   #17
TJ
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Good topic. I like the idea of finding a nice place to hole up till dark, sounds like what I would try to do.

On a side note, I never go out without a buddy. Mr. Murphy's law seems to rule my life and I would never really need a buddy along until he wasn't there. So, let's take this thread one step further. You and your hunting buddy (friend, wife, grandfather, son, neice etc.) are out hunting some distance apart when the above situation happens. You have holed up and the bad guys are in the area looking for you. At this point your hunting buddy has heard the shot and commotion and comes pounding up the trail to see if you are okay. Now what (remember that your buddy isn't rambo)?
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Old March 25, 2000, 12:41 AM   #18
Schmit
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave McC:
a pistol's what gets carried when circumstances rule out a shoulder arm.[/quote]

Disagree, especially when in the woods. A pistol gets carried aways to compliment a shoulder are.



------------------
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"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
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Old March 25, 2000, 07:47 AM   #19
Dave McC
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Guys, how much range does that sidearm give you over the shotgun? While fairtomiddlin' with a handgun, going mano a mano against some goblins with rifles isn't my idea of good odds. You already have the better weapon, and are at a severe disadvantage.

And as for a buddy, I don't pick my friends, or my hunting partners,on their effectiveness in a firefight. Some of mine would be quite a help, others definitely not.

However,each of us can decide for ourselves on this. The idea's to cause us to think and choose good options, not preach a certain view as the One True Way.

Oh, yes, setting fire to the crop would be an option. Good idea...

Watch for the next problem, called Goblins in the Shop....

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Old March 25, 2000, 09:51 AM   #20
Schmit
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Dave,

&gt; You've a handful of game loads, and two rounds of buck with you,left over from deer season.

Ok, your game loads will probably be usable out to what.... 15 yards, the 2 rounds of buck maybe 35 yards past where hits/appropriate wounding is questionable?

Yes the shotgun is a better weapon close in but my .454 will have longer range with a a higher wounding probability out to say 125 yards (given a steady rest (behind a downed log in ambush?). Better then the shotfun IMO.

Either way you are not really appropriately armed against rifles. But at least with an additional sidearm (i.e. 5 rounds of 300 grain FP) you stand a slightly better chance.

------------------
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NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited March 25, 2000).]
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Old March 25, 2000, 09:54 PM   #21
Oleg Volk
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From the stand-point of weight to utility ratio, an extra box of slugs, well-hidden, would be a must. I, for one, would hate to go out with only small-shot on me (just packed my bag for going trap shooting: added six slugs and a dozen #3 buck just in case). I hate "purely sporting" firearms.

A handgun makes much sense if caught away from your shoulder arm: a J-frame or a compact 9 with a reload isn't too much of a burden, eh?
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Old March 25, 2000, 10:09 PM   #22
Spectre
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I always carry a sidearm as well. Yup, always, when hunting w/ shoulder arm.


Now, it IS possible I would be w/ .22 target pistol and svc caliber pistol. In which case, I would hide (which I do well) until they were in favorable range. Alternatively, could fire to hold them down from long range, and hightail it.
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Old March 26, 2000, 01:19 PM   #23
Dave McC
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Folks, you're outnumbered, out gunned, and they know the territory better. A J Frame or a 467 Loudenboomer Mag is not going to alter the odds significantly.

Much as I like handguns and mo' ammo,IMO here the weight factor would be better devoted to a cell phone, topo map,etc.BTW, I usually have a compass aboard when hunting, even in places I know well.

And with those odds, shootings what happens when E&E fails....
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Old March 26, 2000, 01:27 PM   #24
Correia
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I would run like crazy. Head for the thickest pile of thorns and and vines, shoot at them occasionaly, even if they are out of range, they won't know that, force them to use cover. If possible hide, set up an ambush if the cover was too thick to run.

I hate to use this analogy because it is not very reflective of reality, but it would kind of be like when you are playing paintball and you snag the other teams flag. You are outnumbered, outgunned, and they want to shoot you. Best bet run.

But I'm 24, and can run. If I was older, or disabled, or just plain unable to run, I would probably just go for cover, hide if possible, and start shooting.
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Old March 26, 2000, 03:59 PM   #25
TheOtherMikey
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1. Fire one of your ****ty shells...not to kill anybody but to put them on notice that you are armed and willing to fight back.

2. Place the buckshot loads in the chamber so that they will fire first, before the birdshot. Buckshot is good out to about 50 yds. and birdshot is good out to maybe 20-25 yards.

3. HOLD your fire and try to slip away in the confusion. Make sure you ditch any glo-color clothingh or any other bright clothing for that matter. Stick some small branches in your shirt, front and back and try to steal away.

4. If they come upon you, kill them. DO NOT SHOOT TO WOUND....no leg shots. Also, they may be wearing body armor so shoot high to get some pellets into the neck and head regiion.

5. If all else fails, fight for your life. Take theirs without hesitation. If you are going to die, take as many of the bastards with you as you can.

6. You will find that they are cowards. And if you stand up to them and shoot back, you are probably more likely to get away with your life.
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