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Old March 25, 2000, 08:18 AM   #1
Dave McC
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Join Date: October 13, 1999
Location: Columbia, Md, USA
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The next scenario, folks, and one loosely based on a real situation...

Business requires you to travel to a city in your home state,which gives you the opportunity to see an old buddy from the military. You and he shared some very interesting times long ago in South East Asia and each saved the other's life at least once.

Being your state has a Right To Carry Law, you're properly equipped,and quite legal.

After attending to business, you go to your friend's combination home and antique shop, located in a good neighborhood unfortunately close to some really bad ones. You're greeted like the Prodigal Son,and made to feel at home by your friend and his latest wife,whose the antiques maven of the two.

You sit in the kitchen and drink coffee, while the wife supervises the shop. As you talk of old times,your attention's caught by the sight of an old Model 97 Winchester w/ 20" bbl, situated near the door. Your buddy mentions it's the same one that he/you used sometimes back in the bad old days, brought out since they got the shop going, JUST IN CASE.

As the two of you go into another War Story, the little tv monitor of the shop shows a small group of boys/men in their mid to late teens entering the shop and spreading out. They don't look like typical antique hunters.

Your friend mutters something about shoplifters and says he'll be right back. He goes into the shop to keep an eye on the situation. A few seconds later, you note(Being the careful type you've kept an eye on the tv) that while one boy keeps an eye out the front door, two other have produced handguns and the gang is converging on the cash register and your buddy's wife. Buddy has two goblins on him and a handgun to his head.

You grab the phone and dial 911.As you report the crime, the monitor shows a goblin coming towards the door to where you are,and closing.

Handle it...
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Old March 25, 2000, 12:52 PM   #2
45King
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You didn't state the # of goops, so I'm assuming only 3, the one watching the door and the two who are armed. If there are more, they'll be dealt with accordingly.

Speed and decisiveness are of the essence. Any goop with a gun is going down upon sight.
If I can access the M97 before the goop enters, I'll stick with it through the firefight; if not, my trusty GM is at my hip. No time to be switching guns if I have to alert the hostage holder to my presence through the sound of me shooting the goop coming at me.
As soon as I dispatch him, I'll move FAST to the front room and take down the hostage holder, and then any other armed gangsters from closest to farest. Team with buddy (he uses whichever gun I didn't use) and search any goops for weapons, then hold them for police.

------------------
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Old March 25, 2000, 05:57 PM   #3
Schmit
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Read again RAJ... 5 Goblins!

Out the back door as fast of possible leaving phone off the hook. IMO engaging/escalating this situation is the last thing I want to do, especially with old friend having a gun to his head and being out numbered!!

As they said in Monty Python's "In search of the Holy Grail"...

Run Away! Run Away!



------------------
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
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Old March 25, 2000, 09:57 PM   #4
Oleg Volk
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Blast the closest goblin with a pistol as soon as he's out of eyesight of the others -- with luck, they'd decide that he's the one doing the shooting. Engage others with the shotgun...face it, your friends are dead meat unless they are incredibly lucky and all you can do is try to shorten the amount of time that the goblins have to do them in. I'd expect the one holding your pal at gun point to turn and face the new threat instead of shooting first anyway...
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Old March 25, 2000, 10:18 PM   #5
Spectre
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"Disable" quietly.

Desperate times, desperate measures. The gang might be met with proof that, if my friend or his wife dies, they will, too.
Walk away, or meet the maker. Finite time to make the choice before death come calling.

Dang...can I have DC and 4v50, too? Please? I feel that the perps are likely to really want to leave peacefully after seeing their friend, but I like to hedge my bets. Give me Gail McMillan and Spartacus, too, and the BG's won't even be given a choice. 100 to 1 they won't even get a shot off...



[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited April 17, 2000).]
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Old March 26, 2000, 01:36 PM   #6
Dave McC
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Good answers. guys, I was wondering how many folks would recall that a shotgun CAN be an impact weapon too.

Here's the ambiguity on the Model 97. You don't know how or if it's loaded and kept. Back in the Bad Old Days, it was kept chamber loaded, hammer down, MilSpec 00, but that knowledge is 30 years old. And your buddy was hellonwheels then, but for all you know, hasn't fired a round since then.

For all that, I'd grab the 97, whack the first goblin while moving rapidly(Plenty of stick training) and racking the arm as I go.

Note there's no ambiguity about there's being a violent felony committed,so the goblins with visible firearms get the first two rounds,and call the rest as I go. If the 97's empty or inoperable, it gets dropped and I go to plan B, GM and Silvertips. Whatever, speed's of the essence...

Oh,yes, don't hang up the phone.for the reason given.

Thanks, and let's see what else comes up on this and the other scenario.
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Old March 26, 2000, 01:42 PM   #7
Correia
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5 guys?!? In a room, with 2 hostages. Charging out there shooting would only work if you where Rob Leatham. I don't think that there is a win/win situation here. The scenario doesn't say if there is a back door or not. If there was a back door, or other good escape I would make like Schmit and run away, 5 guys with hostages is a job for an entry team with flash bangs and subguns. If however there wasn't a good escape, I really wouldn't want to be a hostage.

I would probably wait for the guy coming in the kitchen, and smash him upside the head with the shotgun.

Now it depends, will the others come looking for him when they hear the noise,(or if no noise, would they come looking for him when he didn't come back), I wouldn't use the shotgun for the same reasons listed as Erick. I would take it in my left hand, pistol in right, if another badguy came through the door I would shoot him, go through the door, (using whatever cover there was), shooting at the bg with my buddy, toss the shotgun his way and shoot till they are all down or I am dead. Hopefully my buddy would be able to use the SG even if I got plugged which is very likely against the 3 remaining. Hopefully with the element of surprise they would try to shoot me and not the hostages.

Anyway you look at it the solution would probably suck.

These scenarios are fun, keep them coming!
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Old March 26, 2000, 02:15 PM   #8
Spectre
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Hmph. This would be a really good situation to have more friends for the party.

I would defitely quietly disable the first w/ the 12.

Walk in, toss something to the one holding the gun to friend's head. Open up, transition to sidearm as or if necessary.

Even better- what is the goblin walking into my space wearing? Can I take his clothes? What's his body type? If I could, I would really like to be able to walk back in wearing his clothes, until too close for them to react in time. Seeya...
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Old March 27, 2000, 12:16 AM   #9
Strabs
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(I'll give it a shot, tell me what you think)How about just doing 911, then sit tight and quiet till the perp nearest DOES ENTER the room or sight of where your located. If he enters, let him have a little lead. The others will(may, hopefully) either come to investigate (lets say 2 of them)when their buddy doen't reply, and you let 'em have another few holes to breath from. Then maybe there's a better(healthier) situation to go and intrude upon where your freinds are located (if you decide to do so). I would hope that once perp #1 is down, if and when any others come and recieve their dues, the others elsewhere would be unsure of what to expect, just as much as you are. If you sit tight (and announce that the police have been called/are in route), waste whom decides to enter where you are, would it be possible that the fear of the unknown may play in your favor and cause the others to flea?

Personally, I would prefer to hang tight and wait the situation out if possible, rather than running away and changing the odds for my friends or trying to be a hero and charge in and potentially put your life at even more risk than if you stayed put, and placing yor friends in danger of lots of potential gunfire.
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Old March 27, 2000, 02:42 AM   #10
Espresso
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My turn to try.

Call 911 if possible. Observe and report.

Since I don't know the condition of the shotgun I wouldn't attempt to use it initially. The amount of time to verify it's condition is insufficient. The scenario presented does not state if there is an exit to the outside from the kitchen. If there was an exit I'd use it to extract myself for two reasons. 1- I know my limitations, although I've attended several schools and quite competent, I'm not Rob Leatham. I can not take on a possible five armed perps in an unfamiliar location. 2- By E&E I can provide excellent intell for LE which is better able to respond to this kind of event. OTH if there is no exit from the kitchen I would wait for the perp to see what he is going to do. He may not know I'm present and just check to see if the door is locked and go away. If this is the case, I'll have the element of surprise and control the timing in engaging, if my asessment of the situation allows attack.

If the perp enters the kitchen I will take the shot from cover or concealment when he is at the doorway which leaves him with no options to manuver. Remove weapon from perp in case he comes back to life. Secure shotgun for the same reason. Continue movement to a position of advantage and hold tight. Engage perps if possible. I won't do my buddy any good if I enter the KZ like Rambo and am KIA.

[This message has been edited by Espresso (edited March 27, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Espresso (edited March 27, 2000).]
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Old March 27, 2000, 08:15 AM   #11
Schmit
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Dave,

Seeing I've lost you e-mail address somewhere btwn switching computers, and the one I sent you via *PI hasn't been responded to please contact me via e-mail.

Use the little mail link above if you please.

Thanks.

------------------
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"

[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited March 27, 2000).]
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Old March 27, 2000, 04:03 PM   #12
John Overbey
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First, dial 911. Request police AND an ambulance, then give as much info as time allows, then leave the phone off the hook. Use the 12g "club" (unless a better one is readily available) to "subdue" the approaching goblin, but only after he is out of the line of sight of the others. Since these goblins were described as being in their mid-to-late teens, I'm assuming they're either general delinquents, or gangster-types. Either way, they will likely have had no formal training, and it's also likely that any of them that HAVE a weapon, will brandish it proudly. This means that the odds are in your favor that the only two that are armed are the ones already identified as such. A quick search of the downed goblin in the kitchen will help confirm this. Find something heavy that will make noise when dropped (iron skillet, maybe? you ARE in the kitchen). Although it wouldn't be as effective as a flash-bang, it should give you a slight edge by distracting and/or confusing the remaining goblins. Use the tv monitors to plan your shots (with your trusty sidearm - the 12g, while better than a handgun, is unfamiliar and unpredictable). Move into position. When ready, throw the object (skillet, etc) into the middle of the store, between the "cash register goblins" and the lookout. As soon as the skillet lands, move to shooting position and take out the two that you KNOW are armed, starting with the one holding you're buddy. As soon as your shots are fired, give the "don't move - hands up" command. Next, move to a position that gives you the best possible view of all of the goblins. If needed, corral them so you can easily cover them all. Since he had combat experience, I'll assume that your buddy would have "relieved" the downed perp of his weapon and could cover you. Have him take his wife to the kitchen and return with the "clubbed" perp. If any of the goblins try to present a weapon, take additional shots as needed. Otherwise, hold them until the police arrive.
-John

[This message has been edited by John Overbey (edited March 28, 2000).]
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Old March 27, 2000, 11:23 PM   #13
jthuang
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Dave, good job with the scenarios, I made sure to scroll down quickly so I didn't get any ideas from the other posters.

First priority is to handle the goblin coming at us. Take position behind hard cover and wait for him to come through the door. Small chance that the goblin is trained in tactics, so he will probably be nice and framed in the fatal funnel of the doorway -- allowing us to drop the hammer on him if lethal force is authorized.

Once position taken behind cover, check to make sure your buddy remembered to load the good old scattergun. At this point, we don't know how many rounds are in it or what it's loaded with. But unless the room is a really long one, even birdshot should do the trick on this guy -- if there is no ammunition in the gun, we've got our concealed carry handgun to use on him.

Goblin #1 brings up an interesting legal justification question, at least to an attorney. If he comes through the door without a weapon or evidences any actions that would result in deadly force being authorized (reasonable belief of imminent death or SBH, rape or kidnapping, etc, depending on jurisdiction), he cannot be summarily executed because there is no legal basis for lethal force.

Despite the fact that his buddies are almost certainly presenting an immediate danger of harm to our buddy and spouse, goblin #1 is not. At the most, we've got conspiracy to commit robbery and maybe conspiracy to commit assault with a deadly weapon. Unless in a "mob surrounding the car" type situation, conspiracy is never enough to support a legitimate claim of justified homicide.

The alternatives are to try to neutralize him without shooting him as he comes through the doorway or to shoot him (illegally). Hopefully we were able to see that goblin #1 has a weapon of some sort over the monitor, then we can drop him with a much better legal stance. We need to take care of him with speed, as the other goblins have our buddy at a significant disadvantage.

I always have OC on me when I'm carrying my gun so if circumstances prevent me from legally using lethal force on goblin #1, I may opt to neutralize him with OC and move on. Another option is to use the shotgun as an impact weapon, but remember in most jurisdictions, unless you are LE, that is the same as using deadly force, since you are using a weapon that could cause SBH. So if you're going to buttstroke him, you might as well shoot him.

Some persons might say that shooting him regardless of legal justification and moving on to save our buddy is a better idea. You didn't hear that from me, your honor.

Once we've disposed of goblin #1, we are faced with a bit of a dilemma (at least for teaching purposes).

Quickly, goblins #2 and 3 are on our buddy at the cash register, #4 is on the lookout outside and #5 is with the getaway car.

When goblins #2-5 have heard us dropping their comrade, they most likely will take off and run. They're not commandos out to take and hold this position, they're looking for an easy score -- and if one of their number has been summarily dealt with, it's gone terribly wrong for them and they'll probably bolt. These are not Marines, who never leave their dead -- these are probably your run-of-the-mill scumbags without that sort of dedication. Problem is solved.

But let's assume these guys decide to stay. The most immediate problem is goblin #2 (assumed) that is holding our buddy and spouse at bay with a handgun. Normally, if we weren't familiar with the people being held at gunpoint, we'd withdraw and wait for the police, who are trained to handle these kinds of things much better than a corporate attorney who has taken a few Insights classes. Problem would be solved.

But this is our buddy and we've got a choice. Either we fall back and wait for the cops to handle it, or we go over the top. If we fall back, we may have to watch our buddy and his wife get wasted over the video monitor -- and relive that sequence for the rest of our days. If we go out, we might get capped ourselves.

Let's assume we go out.

At this point, unless the shotgun were loaded with slugs or 00/000 buckshot, I'd probably ditch the scattergun and go out with my handgun. Why? Well, we don't know exactly how many there are. As the old SWAT operator's saying goes, "there's always one more". We know of goblins #2-5, but what if there are #6 and 7 outside the reach of the visual monitors inside the store? If so, we are going to have to go clearing with a longarm -- not the best idea, especially in a cramped antique store.

I'd much rather clear with a handgun. And if the shotgun is loaded with bird or small buckshot, it's not going to be useful for taking out the goblins, as we are now faced with a potential hostage situation (that we decided to voluntarily enter, silly us). I know that Chuck Taylor and Naish Piazza are big on using the scattergun in hostage situations, but unless it's a slug I won't be very comfortable with a shotgun in a hostage situation.

But since this is the shotgun forum, we'll assume that the shotgun is loaded with slugs or 00 buck. Clear the doorway with the shotgun in either the extreme low ready position or the underarm assault position -- round in the chamber, safety off. Get through the doorway as soon as possible, to avoid being framed in that fatal funnel.

Make way to the front of the store as quickly as possible -- stealth is not really an issue at this point. If possible, go through the aisle with a solid wall to one side -- not the aisle with shelves on both sides. They can shoot through the shelves, so give them less angles to shoot at you.

Remember it is easier for the human body, as a weapon platform to swivel towards its weak side than the strong side. So if the position of the aisles and the cash register allow, move towards the front of the store with goblins #2 and 3 towards your weak side.

Dispatch goblins #2 and 3 first, with "disconcerting alacrity". Goblin #4, as he is outside, will be easier to handle if he comes inside since he will have to come through the doorway (another fatal funnel). Goblin #5, if he's stupid enough to leave the car and come inside, will be dealt with in the same manner.

After goblin #5 is put down, we clear the store with our buddy for the elusive "one more goblin".

Justin



------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Old March 28, 2000, 01:01 AM   #14
TheOtherMikey
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This is what I think I would do based on the scenario.

1. If able to exit through a read door I would do so with the shotgun. I would leave the phone off the hook so the 911 operatorcould hear. Setting the phone handset on the handset guides is good because it looks like the phone is hung up.

2. PRAY

3. After exiting, I would proceed to a position where I had the best view of the shop and back room. I expect most of the action is going on in the front area. Try to re-establish contact with the 911 operator by using cell phone or pay phone if available.

4. Take NO action which might endager the two citizens. Be the eyes and ears for the police until they arrive and assess the situation.

5. If any of the intruders make an attempt to harm or kill either of the 2 citizens, shoot to kill and kill as many of the intruders as possible. Yell to the citizens to get down and crawl out of the shop. Cover them with my sidearm (shotguns are not a weapon of choice when innocents are nearby) until they reach some safety.
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Old March 28, 2000, 12:01 PM   #15
Spectre
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The goblin coming into my space is participating in multiple felonies. We also have numerical superiority, which in and of itself, counts as disseperate force. We have justification for lethal force, whether this individual is armed or not.
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Old March 28, 2000, 12:54 PM   #16
jthuang
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Spectre, gotta respectfully disagree with you there. We probably cannot legally use lethal force on goblin #1.

Felonious conduct does not authorize the use of deadly force. Absent a statute or common law doctrine to the contrary, you know the drill:

1. Immediacy of the threat;
2. Opportunity for the goblin to cause you harm;
3. No safe retreat available;
4. Objectively reasonable belief of death or SBH;
5. No fault of your own (i.e., you did not provoke the situation).

Tax evasion may be a felony in some instances, but it does not authorize deadly force.

Numerical superiority alone only provides disparity of force. It does not provide you with imminency or opportunity of harm. It only provides you with a more reasonable fear of death or SBH.

In this case, you don't have disparity of force, at least due to multiple goblins. You only have one goblin coming at you through the door, not two or more. The fact that goblin #1 is acting in concert with #2-5 is irrelevant for lethal force purposes -- they do not present an immediate threat of death or SBH to you, nor do they have the opportunity to present such a threat to you.
You may be confusing accomplice liability (in terms of what we can charge goblin #1 with if we were the district attorney) with justification for lethal force -- two entirely different matters. You cannot impute justification for deadly force upon accomplices

I don't entirely espouse Mas Ayoob's teachings, but he is right on one point -- survive the ENTIRE battle. The entire battle will include the gunfight, the criminal proceedings against you, and the civil proceedings against you.

HTH,

Justin

------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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