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Old February 28, 2000, 04:15 AM   #1
Arnistador
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Join Date: August 22, 1999
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Wondering if anyone could share the doctrine and methodology that they have learned for tactical shotgun, such as steps for speedloading, switching out shells, transition drills, etc.,

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Old February 28, 2000, 07:52 AM   #2
Dave McC
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Most of my expertise was acquired under govt fiat, so the fancy stuff from high priced schools is not all known to me.

Coupla things, tho...

First, Load one, fire one. While not always possible,keeping the mag topped off is a good idea because the extra weight aids recoil control.

Second, the proper method(andthis is quite simple,but bear with me)of reloading is to grab the round with the index and middle fingers of the firing hand parallel,and the thumb pushing the base. One can then stuff the shell into the weapon w/o many drops or blunders.

Third, A loading scenario. It's getting quite lethal in your immediate vicinity and you've shot your 870 dry and need at least one mo' round PDQ. When ejecting that last spent case, leave the action open, and throw another round in through the ejection port. Nothing fancy, just make sure the brass end goes towards the butt.Slam the action shut and pick your target.Repeat as necessary, until you can find cover and reload fully.

In combat, switching loads is fraught with peril. Any action is difficult to perform, and adds to the risk. IF YOU MUST, try this.

Eject the round in the chamber and retain it. Turn the weapon on its side and shake out the round on the carrier. Throw in the replacement round and go for it.
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Old March 1, 2000, 06:02 PM   #3
Dave McC
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Nice to know the high priced guys and I are in agreement, Erick(G)...

Loading through the ejection port of a dry weapon is surprisingly fast. But, like you say, one can jam up the piece fast and bad if it's not dry.

But, life has few guarantees. If one has shot the piece dry, it's the best method of getting off one mo' round, which could be the difference between being able to buy the squad a rounds of beer after the debriefing, or assuming ambient temperature.

And, Erick, you can cover transitions any time you want. Thanks...
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Old March 1, 2000, 06:45 PM   #4
Arnistador
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Thanks for your input. What do you do if your mag tube is full and you wish to switch shells?

Here are my transition drill options (just like carbine):

1. (personal favorite). Safety on. Drop shotgun (a non-functional weapon is no good to me.) Transition to two handed firing position.

2. Safety on. Tuck shotgun under support side arm at about waist level, muzzle downrange. Transition to one handed shooting with firing side hand.

3. Safety on. One handed (support side) support of shotgun in an indoor ready position. Transition to one handed shooting with firing side hand.

4. (HK ITD Method w/ weapon mounted light on long gun.) Safety on. With butt of shotgun in shoulder pocket, transition to pistol with firing side hand. Bring hands together so both weapons are pointing downrange. Shotgun is supported by support side's thumb and index finger. Index finger of support hand is on flashlight tape switch, last three fingers are supporting firing hand.

Any others?

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
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Old March 2, 2000, 06:39 AM   #5
Dave McC
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The HD 870 here has a two round extension, I keep five in the tube for the spring's sake. At time of action, I'd top it off PDQ.

For the record, I regard switching shells in the same light as combat reloads of a handgun for a private citizen. Something to know, but unlikely to need in the real world. Police/military/militia needs are different.

Tim, thanks for the transition drills. You and Erick musta gone to those high priced private academies, or maybe teach at them...

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Old March 2, 2000, 11:26 AM   #6
Gabe Suarez
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Shotguns...now there's a subject close to my heart. Manipulations for them are very weapon dependent (870 techniques won't work with benelli, etc), so learn your gun.

Erick, you know about Hick! I thought I was the only one with too much time on my hands! Truly, his concept is pivotal in teaching us why we should keep things simple(...stupid).
In short, Hick was a researcher who determined that for a given stimulus, we would examine each possible learned solution (milliseconds each one, but it still adds up to time lost) before implementing the correct one. Therefore, train ONE METHOD ONLY (when possible).

The problem with taking this to extremes is that often one manipulation will not solve everything. I had one famous trainer mention that his catch-all pistol clearing-reloading drill would solve all pistol malfunctions. It worked pretty good (if a little slow) until we caused a Feedway Stoppage,.aka "double feed". All he could do was revert to the old way.

The only problem with emergency loading into the magazine is that it takes time. if you've left the action unlocked (stress does silly things to us), you may not be able to get that round into the tube. There's too many possibilities to discuss here, but you get the idea. Make sure your method works in ALL cases otherwise its not better, just different.

With 870s, which is what most of us seem to have on hand, I teach to keep loading the magazine as you need. If you need to do an emergency load (all out of ammo), your first indication will probably be a "click" instead of a bang. Solution - go to the pistol. If you don't have a pistol, and the adversary s close, you won't be able to load anything in time before he shoots you. Transition to medieval tactical principles and club the cr-p out of him with your shotgun. Crude, but effective.

If you will be doing an emergency load, I suggest loading through the port. I also do slug-select drills this way. With the former, remember that you'll be getting the "click" as an indication. This means you action is unlocked (and maybe partially open) which may prevent loading into the magazine.
Open the action (as you run like hell) and load the round on board. Oh, yes, you have to move. Standing and manipulating is not a good idea.

With the slug-select, I don't go in for leaving "dead spaces" in the magazine anymore. I used to follow the logic of leaving space to load the slug and so on, but reality of deployment tells us that buckshot will be the most prevalent round, and slugs relegated to special munitions status. (Unless you always have slugs in it which makes the entire issue moot).

To load the slug with the 870, open the action and simultaneously turn the weapon outboard (ejection port down). this will drop the chambered round and the next round that fed out of the magazine. Now load the slug as you would do an ejection port load. Yes you are dropping two for one, but you are loading the slug because buck is no longer usefull to you.

The Benelli shotguns make all this much easier. Those of you who have them know what I mean.

The final reality check - buckshot will fix 95% of all CQB problems you are likely to face...with ONE SHOT. Transitioning to slugs is a good skill to have on board, but like emergency loading, don't get carried away with it. In several shotgun shootings, some of which involved multiple rounds (both myself as well as other officers) no one ever neded to emergency load their shotgun. I did go to slug one time, but by the time it was done, the bad guy wasn't there to shoot

The one transition that I am aware of, the officer simply dropped the empty shotgun and went to his pistol (very hairy shooting involving multiple BGs, moving cars, etc.)

So, learn your weapon. Learn the best ways to deploy it (meaning simplest way), and make what you've learned reflexive so you don't **** off Mr. Hick who is a cousin of Mr. Murphy.

Gabe Suarez
HALO Group tactical training http://www.thehalogroup.com
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Old March 2, 2000, 03:13 PM   #7
Dave McC
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Thanks for all that, Gabe. While I never heard of Hick, his cousin is an old acquaintance. And it makes sense to keep it simple. Back when I taught unarmed(and improvised weapons) to the rookies, I emphasized that a few good moves, known so well one could do them when semi-conscious beat all the fancy stuff taught in the sports Dojos. I did reiterate over and over that doing something usually beat trying to figure out the best way. Reaction beats thought sometimes. Training,when done properly, builds the reaction.

WHile you're here, howzabout your thoughts on the 870? Thanks...

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Old March 2, 2000, 10:18 PM   #8
Gabe Suarez
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Dave,

I dearly love the 870. I've carried it, sweated with it, been scared with it, and I've even ended some nasty people's careers with it.

My 870 is pretty pedestrian by many other's standards. Its got bead sights, an extended magazine and a surefire light. Nothing more was ever needed.

As a professional, I also know that there's better stuff out there. That's why I switched to the Glock pistols when they first came out. In my opinion, the best shotgun out there today is the Benelli. The NOVA pump action has advantages over the 870, and the Super 90 beats all semi-autos flat.

Although the Super 90 is pricey, the Nova is reasonably priced (about the cost of an 870). If I had an 870, I wouldn't rush out to sel it or anything like that, but if you wanted something better, I'd take a look at those.

Gabe Suarez - HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com http://www.gabesuarez.com
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Old March 3, 2000, 06:56 AM   #9
Dave McC
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Thanks, Gabe,I've been fighting the good fight against all these Mossberg owners,and it's nice to get backup(G).

Re the Benelli, I'm retired and have less need for state of the art tools. The 870s will serve just as well as they have.I want nothing better,IF indded something is out there that is more reliable/better.

Also, unreconstructed curmudgeon that I am, all the weapons here at Casa McC were made in the US, by US companies. I see my bias, and freely admit that's what it is.

I appreciate your short list of mods and add ons. IMO, most people would be better served with less bells and whistles and more practice and ammo.

Thanks for your time and input....
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