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Old February 19, 2000, 07:29 PM   #1
hdm25
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Could anyone give me their views on the pros and cons of the following three shotguns; Remington 870, Remington 11-87, Benelli M1 Super 90?
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Old February 19, 2000, 11:59 PM   #2
j.s.parker
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hdm25; I just got a Rem 870 home defense a couple weeks ago. Fantastic shotgun! I love it. The other two are auto's I believe. For self defense pump shotguns are the best. More relieable I suppose. For hunting the remington's are alot cheaper than the Benelli. Good luck, j.s.
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Old February 20, 2000, 12:18 AM   #3
Art Eatman
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My own preference would be an 870 with a ventilated rib. 12-gauge. If it didn't come with screw-in chokes, I'd get it set up for that. Otherwise, either modified choke or improved cylinder for most hunting. And you can shoot slugs through improved cylinder with little deformation...

You can buy a 20" cylinder-bore barrel for a home defense gun...and on and on and on...But don't get into that Rambo pistol-grip black plastic stuff...

FWIW, Art
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Old February 20, 2000, 01:16 AM   #4
muleshoe
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This is simple, what Art said.
For the money the 870 is IMHO the best pump gun out there.

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Old February 20, 2000, 07:31 AM   #5
Dave McC
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One of the four 870s here at Casa McC was bought used by my father around 1956. I've put at least 3000 rounds through it myself, and it's now my HD shotgun. Absolutely reliable,durable and effective.I fully expect all the 870s here to outlast me by several generations.

Most Govt Agencies use 870s because they just keep working and working.

And,I've used them for hunting,from deer to woodcock to doves to geese,from squirrels to pheasants to rabbits to grouse. As near as I can recall, they've never let me down.

Those other two shotguns may be good also. But as long as there's 870s, that's what I'll be shooting.
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Old February 20, 2000, 02:53 PM   #6
JJCook
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This is an easy choice. Definately the 870. I grew up around those. My grandfather had an old 870 12' in which he passed on to my father. My father had an 870 20' also. So now, I have both! We also carry 870's here at work. I would and always go with a pump for HD IMHO. Less chance of misfire from a semi. I suggest going with "the old reliable" 870, while saving a bit of money as well.

JJC
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Old February 21, 2000, 01:25 AM   #7
Bennett Richards
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While the Mossbergs and Winchesters are a quality product... and Benelli's are GREAT, I would have to say the Remington 870. I had 2 wingmasters when I was a kid and used them for 20 years with not a problem.
When I felt I needed a HD gun I went with a Marine 870...
Still great... just keep going and going and going.........

Ben
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Old February 21, 2000, 01:46 AM   #8
Shin-Tao
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Forget the finicky, expensive autos. Go with the 870 or a Mossy 500/590. With the pumps you need not worry about ammunition not cycling in your weapon.
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Old February 21, 2000, 07:26 AM   #9
Ned Roundtree
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I'll add another vote for the Rem 870. There was a Tacitical Shotgun Class at my club. Mostly Rem 870s by far, second Benelli's ,third a couple of Mossbergs. The only gun to fail was one of the Mossbergs.
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Old February 21, 2000, 06:07 PM   #10
jthuang
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I have a short segment on pump vs auto for defense use at http://www.members.tripod.com/~jth8260/shotgun.html

If you decide on a pump, there are some good reasons not to buy a Remington 870. My thoughts on this at http://www.members.tripod.com/~jth8260/870.html

I have a Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical and I love it. My only complaints are: (1) the factory stock can be a bit long for shorter people; (2) the cost; and (3) you cannot weigh it down with too many accessories otherwise you will start getting failures to feed with light target (or tactical loads). My M1S90 has functioned perfectly with light trap loads and Federal tactical buckshot and slugs while wearing a Surefire Responder 617F.

HTH,

Justin
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Old February 21, 2000, 07:32 PM   #11
Shin-Tao
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I've seen some acounts of problems with Mossberg pump actions on this forum. This puzzles me. I use 500\590s exclusively and have never had a problem. Any problem ever.
My current Mossy, wich I just put 20 shells through Sunday and toted with me all day friday, still works flawlessly. This gun has digested over 220 full charge shells without a hitch. It has gone through an additional 120 shells of Remmington High Velocity game loads. It works like a perfect machine.
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Old February 21, 2000, 09:21 PM   #12
Dave McC
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Justin, despite all the deficiencies you claim for the 870,whyinheck is it the weapon of choice for most serious types and darn near all govt agencies?

That dimple thing is a lawyer's idea, IMO, and deserves the same treatment most other lawyer's ideas get.

As near as I can tell,the sole reason the Mossberg was selected was that it has the only truly ambidextrous safety on the market, one of the specs the Military demanded.

And, the safety, slide release(Not bolt release) and so on haven't slowed me up too much yet, but I've only been shooting 870s since around 1958.Part of that time I was on the weapons squad,and the Hostage Recovery Team,with an 870 as my first line tool.For ten years,my duties also included instruction and I taught hundreds of rookies to shoot the 870.Other shotguns(S&W 3000,Win 1200) were tried and found wanting.

And my guess is that Scattergun Technologies does so much with the 870 is not a sweetheart deal with Remington,but the plain and simple fact that this piece is the one most folks want.

Nothing against the Mossberg, but I'll stick with the 870.

But when it's your butt on the line, you should make the choice yourself. If that's something besides the 870, so be it,and good luck.
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Old February 21, 2000, 09:26 PM   #13
Dave McC
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Justin, despite all the deficiencies you claim for the 870,whyinheck is it the weapon of choice for most serious types and darn near all govt agencies?

That dimple thing is a lawyer's idea, IMO, and deserves the same treatment most other lawyer's ideas get.

As near as I can tell,the sole reason the Mossberg was selected was that it has the only truly ambidextrous safety on the market, one of the specs the Military demanded.

And, the safety, slide release(Not bolt release) and so on haven't slowed me up too much yet, but I've only been shooting 870s since around 1958.Part of that time I was on the weapons squad,and the Hostage Recovery Team,with an 870 as my first line tool.For ten years,my duties also included instruction and I taught hundreds of rookies to shoot the 870.Other shotguns(S&W 3000,Win 1200) were tried and found wanting.

And my guess is that Scattergun Technologies does so much with the 870 is not a sweetheart deal with Remington,but the plain and simple fact that this piece is the one most folks want.

Nothing against the Mossberg, but I'll stick with the 870.

But when it's your butt on the line, you should make the choice yourself. If that's something besides the 870, so be it,and good luck.
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Old February 21, 2000, 11:54 PM   #14
jthuang
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Dave,

Just because a ton of law enforcement agencies use the 870 does not make it the best tool for the job. A thousand lemmings following the first lemming off the cliff doesn't make the first lemming correct, right?

And remember that the 870 issued to law enforcement (the 870 Police) probably don't have those nice little dimples and lengthened slides that us regular folks have to deal with.

The dimples probably *are* some litigator's idea. I'm a corporate attorney so I don't have much insight into those things -- other than to say that a company that thinks it knows how many rounds I "need" for defense is not getting one red cent of my money.

Thanks for the correction on the slide release vs. bolt release, I'll make that change at the office tomorrow.

I'm glad you've had such success with the 870. One thing I didn't mention in my article was that one friend's 870 is having serious trouble with extraction and ejection. Fortunately, he's ditched the 870 for home defense and is now relying on two pre-ban AR15 rifles.

Justin
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Old February 22, 2000, 01:12 AM   #15
muleshoe
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Kinda looks like Dave is not the only lemming,er shooter, who has had "good luck" with them nasty ole 870's.

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Old February 22, 2000, 04:36 AM   #16
Dave McC
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Justin, your friend's 870 may have the front of the ejector busted off, I've seen one or two have this happen. The fix is simple, but requires the ministrations of either the factory or a competent smith. And this condition is quite rare. Most 870 glitches can be cured by cleaning and lubing.

Early 870s had the old corncob wood on the slide. The newer, larger,longer one is probably an attempt to heavy the piece up a little for smoother swing on birds and a little less kick. BTW, the first mag plug for the 870 was a solid steel one weighing over a lb.Still have mine, but it's not in a weapon.
And just why should Remington modify their shotgun to make it easier for the aftermarket companies?

And as for lemmings, it's more like the people with the most experience picking what they believe is the best tool.

Have a good'un....
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Old February 22, 2000, 07:32 AM   #17
HarryB
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I posted a pro Moss anti Remington subject some time ago. I now own an 870 and sold the Mossberg! Not that I felt one was better than the other for HD. I liked the 870 better as a hunting weapon and didn't want a mixed manual of arms in case TSHIF.

Regarding the dimples--not really sure if it is designed to limit capacity or not. It seems to me that the dimples serve to keep the mag spring retainer from flying away when someone removes the mag cap without thinking of capturing the retainer. I may be wrong (it happens time to time). I have a Choate extension but haven't installed in yet.

IMO there are so many good choice--hard to go wrong...
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Old February 22, 2000, 09:44 AM   #18
jthuang
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Dave,

Remington has no obligation to the aftermarket companies. Instead, it has an obligation to their customers (i.e., you and me) if they want to stay financially solvent.

If the customers start demanding compatibility with certain aftermarket accessories, like the magazine extension and Sidesaddle (both of which are almost "standard equipment" on Scattergun Technology shotguns) then they'd be wise to listen to the customers. Now that you mention it, Remington may be still caught in that dusty old business strategy of "the customer will buy what we sell" -- which the big three car manufacturers in Detroit espoused until they started getting slammed in the 1980s. A much better (and more modern) idea would be "we'll sell what the customers want."

If they don't change, their customers may walk away and patronize an outfit which is more in tune with the new way of doing business -- one who is more willing to accomodate the needs of the customer (e.g., Mossberg, Winchester, Benelli, Beretta, etc.).

Thanks for the fix-it tip. I'll pass it along to my buddy -- he mothballed his shotgun but I know he wants to get it back into action. Three Gun season is coming up soon -- not only that, he's got nothing to use to break clay birds.

Justin

[This message has been edited by jthuang (edited February 22, 2000).]
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Old February 22, 2000, 11:23 AM   #19
Dave McC
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For every Scattergun T 870 out there, Justin,or even home tweaked 870s like mine, there's probably 100 stock guns used by their owners for hunting, clays,HD and whatever else.

A stock 870 with zero bellsnwhistles is still a weapon of tremendous capabilities in trained and competent hands. The 20 ga 870 I picked up for the kids to learn on is absolutely stock, and I would not regard msyelf as unarmed with it.My kids are not the only third generation 870 shooters I know.

Maybe Remington is missing the boat on after market compatibility, but I doubt it's showing much on their bottom line.

BTW, except for that 20 ga,all the 870s here were bought used,and before someone thought up that dimple thing. I might not be so tolerant if I had to deal with it(G)...
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Old February 22, 2000, 03:32 PM   #20
jthuang
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Dave,

It is probably true that there are hundreds of "stock" Remington 870s out there being used for clays and hunting. However, that is not the issue, since my comparison of the 870 and 500 was for defense purposes.

The Remington 870 notwithstanding, any weapon in "trained and competent" hands is deadly, even a NAA mini-revolver in .22 Short. But in general, your average gun owner does not have training, and competence (in defensive terms) is questionable. While equipment cannot take the place of training, it certainly allows for a greater margin of error for those untrained and/or non-competent individuals -- more shots in the tube and more rounds on the receiver.

I mean if out of 70 (?) million gun owners in the United States, less than three million are NRA members (around 4% of gun owners) are conscientious enough to spend $35 a year to protect their rights, what are the chances that the average gun owner will spend the $300-500 odd dollars on a defensive shotgun course, as to be trained and competent to use his or her shotgun for defense purposes, thus obviating the need for any defensive modifications?

Remington's magazine dimples and shortened slide policy are enough for me to stick them in the same category as Colt's Manufacturing and Sturm, Ruger & Co. I'm voting with my dollars so all gun owners don't have to be saddled with stupid PC modifications that are nothing more than solutions to non-existent problems.

And from an opportunity cost theory, each and every defense pump gun sold by Mossberg, Winchester, Ithaca Gun and whoever else is affecting Remington's bottom line. If Remington truly had the better product for the money, not so many people would be purchasing defense pump guns from those manufacturers.

But on a brighter note, I am going to spring for a Dremel tool to get rid of those stupid dimples in my dad's 870. Then next Chrismas, gift buying will be easy. I can see him with a ten round magazine tube extension now. You probably thought I bought him that shotgun out of the goodness of my heart but the way I saw it, I bought him a gun one year and then I figured I would have gifts for the successive years made -- a Sidesaddle here, a Giles tactical sling there, a magazine tube extension ....

This is rapidly getting off topic, so please feel free to e-mail me at jthuang@rssm.com or jthuang@rcn.com. Thanks,

Justin
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Old February 22, 2000, 09:06 PM   #21
K80Geoff
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Another plus in the 870 column. I shoot with a lot of folks who own expensive shotguns, but almost all have an 870 in the gunsafe. Mossberg is considered a joke. You just do not see them where serious shotgunners shoot. Try to find a mossberg listed among the winners at the Grand American! Reliability counts for something, and the Remington is reliable!

I would rather have the steel receiver and its alleged weight anyday, when you shoot a lot the extra weight is easier on the shoulder. Of course, Mossberg does have excellent barrels, because Remington makes them!

Mossbergs are the "saturday night specials" of the shotgun world!

Geoff Ross
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Old February 23, 2000, 01:45 AM   #22
Gabe Suarez
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Of all the shotguns available, I've had the most use with the Remington 870. That simple design has saved my hide on more than a few occasions.

Now, having said that. I must also point out that there are better fighting shotguns out there. If you are sold on the pump, the 870 has a great deal going for it, but I'd also take a serious look at the Benelli NOVA. I handled and shot one - impressive. I've got one on order.

There's nothing wrong with a semi-auto. They're more expensive, but certainly not more than a tricked out (and ultra-heavy) "tactical responder". In this category, the Super 90 would get top billing with the 11-87 coming in a close second.

Gabe Suarez
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Old February 23, 2000, 06:07 AM   #23
Dave McC
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Now we've got a serious disagreement, Justin. Technology can never substitute for expertise. If someone is not competent with a firearm, the gizmos mean he can miss more times before reloading. Spray and pray is not a viable alternative in HD.

Take Joe Average with his 870. He goes after doves,squirrels, and rabbits with it.He takes it out a couple of time each year to shoot some clays with his buddies, and stokes it up with field loads in between. He's no Gunsite Grad, but he can operate that weapon in the dark,has built muscle memory and any burglar coming in has a serious problem. And, since he's not only used to the weapon, but has years of safe operation behind him, he's dangerous only to the right people.

I trained hundreds of rookies to shoot, and did the yearly requals also. Only those folks that shot shotguns recreationally moved past bare minimum competence,regardless of equipment.

On another note, in between getting that stuff for your Dad's 870, I hope you and him are going out and shooting some. I sure wish my Dad was still around so he could beat the pants offa me at trap or clays. He was the best wing shot I've ever seen.

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Old February 23, 2000, 09:45 AM   #24
jthuang
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Dave,

Guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I disagree that the average gun owner even has that sort of competence with his or her weapon. I posit out of the 70 (?) million gun owners, most are the "buy the gun and stick it in the closet" or "buy the gun, shoot a few rounds during hunting season (the bulk of those scant rounds to sight in) and stick it in the closet" type.

All you have to do is to truck down to your local public range and see how the four rules of safety hold up. If those people can't get the safety rules straight, how are they competent to use a gun in a defensive situation?

This has happened to me more than once and I've really cut down on my range time at public ranges. Had one guy point a SIG P228 directly at me and my buddies (from about 3 yards away), in the course of him "showing us how they gripped handguns in the Navy". We got the "don't worry, it's not loaded" excuse.

And I remember one Jeff Cooper Commentary where he (or one of his Gunsite grads) saw an individual with a very nice Weatherby rifle "sighting in" at the range. The guy didn't have any iron sights or a scope on his rifle!

Thus, for those persons, every advantage (in equipment or otherwise) is useful. They desperately need some sort of training but they're not going to get it. Those of them which are out on the skeet fields and practicing regularly are few indeed. I belong to a private club with over 1,300 members. I go to the range on weekends and some weekdays and it's like I'm in a ghost town.

And even for those with training and competence, you wonder why those persons prefer Scattergun Tech guns with the extended magazine tubes and Sidesaddles -- if they're so competent and trained, why do they use those equipment crutches? Same reason as the rest of us (trained or not) -- in a defensive situation, we'll all take whatever advantages we can get. And there's no good reason to limit those advantages, which is exactly what Remington is doing to you and me.

I'm sure we're cluttering up the topic here so since I don't see an e-mail address for you, just drop me a line at the addresses above. Otherwise, I think it's "agree to disagree" time and further discussion is moot.

It has been a long and arduous track with my dad. When I was growing up, he (and my mom) were rather anti-gun. I thought that was strange, since he had served in wartime and my mom had mandatory military training as well. So I didn't have any guns while growing up, only a few air rifles. Only recently (now that I'm almost ten years out of high school) has he warmed up to the idea of having a gun so he expressed an interest in buying a gun -- and so I bought him one. We do need to go shooting more often, that is true.

Justin
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Old February 23, 2000, 11:21 AM   #25
Shok
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Can't go wrong with the 870 its reliable and accurate. Excellent general purpose shotgun. Tons of cheap accessories.

I have a Winchester 1300 Shadow that has been a perfect deer, pheasant, trap, coyote, and HD gun.

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