The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 16, 2000, 12:49 AM   #1
Andrew
Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2000
Posts: 36
I saw one at the range a few weeks ago and I'm just curious about them. How bad is the recoil from a 12 ga. pistol grip shotgun, specifically a Mossberg 500 Cruiser?
Andrew is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 02:21 AM   #2
Kilroy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 1998
Posts: 117
Recoil will be more then a standard stock, and accuracy will be worse. Stay away from them, they do nothing to help accuracy and control. The are cute and an administrative convenience.

Kilroy...
...was here
Kilroy is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 03:19 AM   #3
Ned Roundtree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 1999
Location: Lexington, KY,USA
Posts: 738
I never shot one. Just looked at it at tried to figure what kind of control you would have if not place up to your shoulder to absorb recoil and follow up shots. Seems it can be used for sweeping the street or hallway. It looks wicked, but does anyone really use it? I like to be in control of my shots, so I have stayed away from.
Ned Roundtree is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 05:13 AM   #4
MissileCop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 1999
Location: Manchester, N.H.
Posts: 188
Let me give you a quick story on pistol grip shotguns. Some years ago, some friends and I were spending an afternoon pin shooting and target shooting. My bestest buddy (all 6'3") and 350 lbs. of him was shooting a Winchester 12 ga. with a pistol grip stock. Well, apparently, one shell was loaded hot, because the next thing I saw was the barrel flying up and whackin' him on the forehead. I felt bad about it happening, but couldn't help but laugh my butt off at the same time. Needless to say, that was enough shotgunning for him for the day.

------------------
Times have changed, but the nature of man hasn't. That's why I always go to AA, "Alert and Armed".
MissileCop is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 07:27 AM   #5
Dave McC
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 13, 1999
Location: Columbia, Md, USA
Posts: 8,812
During my career with the Md Dept of Public Safety, I trained hundreds of Correctional Officers to shoot. For a while, we had folding stocks on the 870s in some Rapid Response vehicles, and the troops had to qualify with them shooting from the hip. It was a lot harder for most of them to hit with.Sometimes, impossible...

IMO, pistol grip stocks are great if you're auditioning for Miami Vice II, but not for use in AS scenarios.

That doesn't apply to full stocks with PGs, BTW....
Dave McC is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 09:39 AM   #6
STEVE M
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 1999
Location: TN. USA
Posts: 607
Well, since you brought it up Dave, how about the full stock with pistol grip? Is it really helpful or just really cool looking? I've thought about it for my 870, but haven't made my mind up yet.

------------------
keep your options open &
never miss!
STEVE M is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 09:43 AM   #7
Kingcreek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1999
Location: rural Illinois
Posts: 589
I shot one.it sucked.
they are a great aid in wrongly gripping a shotgun
Kingcreek is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 10:48 AM   #8
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,848
Pistol grips only are a crock.
You lose the ability of aimed fire.
You can miss with shot even at close distances.

If you raise a pistol grip 12 gauge to eye
line and aim using the bead (why is there -if not to aim?), you join the set of people who
have busted their mouth open.

Don't ask me how I know but I can also recommend other members of the club.

I prefer to aim. Sweeping the street is movie
BS.
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 08:33 PM   #9
saylerman
Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 1999
Location: Central Arizona USA
Posts: 39
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> how about the full stock with pistol grip? Is it really helpful or just really cool looking? I've thought about it for my 870, but haven't made my mind up yet. [/quote]

Jumping on Dave question here, but - I recently put a SpeedFeed III tac stock (w/pg) on my 870P - I think its great. (This is a duty weapon) I went with the added PG because I like the way I can pull it into the "pocket" and it works well one-handed during building clears (opening doors, etc) and the like. My recommendation is always to go with what works and feels best TO YOU.

DWJ
saylerman is offline  
Old January 16, 2000, 11:54 PM   #10
LOCHFAL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Posts: 211
I've had several shotguns with the pistol grip on them. Most of them Mossberg 500s. It's nice to have in confined areas where you have a hallway or a small room, like in home defence. I never had trouble hitting a coffee can over and over again chasing it around the range from the hip and even did some aimed fire using the bead, no I didn't get it in the teeth or anywhere else. I don't use one now, I think I outgrew it.
The only thing I'd say is forget the hard plastic grip, it hurts like an SOB. The rubber ones Pachmyer makes are much better and seem to soak up a lot of the recoil.
LOCHFAL is offline  
Old January 17, 2000, 05:31 AM   #11
Dave McC
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 13, 1999
Location: Columbia, Md, USA
Posts: 8,812
Shot a full stock with PG only a few times. Saw neither any advantages nor drawbacks. The standard stock works just fine, so maybe the PG full stock is an answer to a non existent question.
Dave McC is offline  
Old January 17, 2000, 11:13 AM   #12
Kilroy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 1998
Posts: 117
Just ordered the Speedfeed stock w/ pistol grip. I got the one with the reduced length of pull. I will be doing some training with this gun and see if I like it. Will report back on this forum.

Kilroy...
...was here
Kilroy is offline  
Old January 17, 2000, 01:37 PM   #13
CMOS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 1999
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 1,417
I agree with DaveMcC and MissleCop - IMHO, forget the pistol grip.

I shot a friends M1 Super 90 with the pistol grip/stock combination. I found it to be slower to bring up to the ready position and it didn't allow for the sights to line up well for the quick shot. I then bought an M1 SuperDuper 90 with just the rifle stock, which I had fitted to my body size, and it's perfect for me. Very fast target acquisition.

Went shooting witha friend of mine whio just bought a WInchester Defender w/ pistol grip. After his first shot and after cleaning the blood off the gun, we drove to the hospital to have his 4 front teeth replaced. Broke them off right at the gumline.

If you do get the pistol grip alone, be sure you have good dental insurance...

CMOS


------------------
GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!


CMOS is offline  
Old January 17, 2000, 08:29 PM   #14
Young Kiwi
Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2000
Posts: 75
I've used P/G only stocks(on a Mossberg 500), The only way it came close to useful was have a P/G on the front as well, This meant that you could bring it up to eye level and aim and maintain some form of control, I wouldn't recommend it unless space is a *real* issue. [Recoil was not too bad, mostly just awkward, shot to shot recovery took forever]

I have had a full stock with P/G on my Remington 870 for the last 10 years. I find that really useful, the safety is extemely well positioned, the top part of the finger can push the safety off while rest of the finger is still straight, alongside the trigger guard. I can remove rounds from my side-saddle and place them in the magazine without removing the gun from my shoulder. I find the P/G a very secure method of holding the firearm.

The other point is that the majority of the rifles I use have Pistol Grip stocks, so the feel is quite familar.

[This message has been edited by Young Kiwi (edited January 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Young Kiwi (edited January 17, 2000).]
Young Kiwi is offline  
Old January 17, 2000, 10:19 PM   #15
Glockmeister40
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2000
Posts: 5
I've owned several Mossbergs.
The first one I bought years ago was an 18' 12 ga mod 500A w/ a full pistol grip.
The factory plastic job.
As far as pistol grips on shotguns go, this one sucks.
I fired hundreds of rounds , mostly buck shot OO and #4 2 3/4" stuff.
At close pistol type ranges accuracy sucked.
I was able to help this by putting the rear of the weapon on my leg and aiming with my left thumb on the slide.
I also fired the weapon with two hands on the pistol grip like a pistol at eye level and hit most of my targets letting the weapon recoil up , like when you shoot a .44 mag.Inever had a 2 3/4" load smack me in the face.
Or one hand at mid torso level.
The only time I had a problem was when I decided to fire 3" mags while bracing the weapon on my hip. the gun recoiled out of my left hand and ended up pointing behind me , firing hand almost losing hold.My hip was bruised and torn to hell.
I didn't try to fire the 3" mags in any other position.

If you feel you absolutely need to have a pistol gripped shotgun, get the packy grip and stay w/ the standard forearm.
If your pressed for space , get a folding stock like a butler creek. that way you still have a usable[aimable] weapon.
I have a Mossberg 590 w/ the standard stock.
I can still "clear" the house ( so to speak ) by putting the stock under my arm in a "full auto tuck" and not get snagged on door jambs and such.
But tactics are a another subject entirely.
As far a recoil. its not the kind of weapon you want to hold with one hand a whole lot , it'll get away from you or more so injure your hand.
I almost had to have surgery on my thumb joints and they still hurt on and off to this day. nothing requiring therapy ( physical ot mental for that matter ) though.

IMHO - Its gimmicky and looks cool on TV but isn't really practical or effective.
Maybe fun to play with.


Glockmeister40 is offline  
Old January 18, 2000, 07:11 AM   #16
N.Y.G MP Pvt
Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Carmel NY USA
Posts: 49
I used to moonlight doing overnights @ my buddy's convenience store. Due to space restrictions behind the counter a full length shotgun was not an option. I bought a Speedwell pistol grip(kinda looks like someone sawed down a full stock) for my Maverick 88. I figured at that close range it would be very hard to miss. I loaded it w/ rubber OO(old riot control rounds we had laying around the Provost Marshals's office). At that range(like 15-18') i figured this round would be lethal while yet court defensable("I only meant to stop him""the police use this stuff"etc." Thank god I never had to use it but this was a case where a pistol grip was a must. I don't have a personal pistol permit(I carry a Beretta 92 on base) so I had to make do w/ a shotgun. I kept it loaded and cocked, but only racked it halfway forward(the way I hunt). Well that's my 1 1/2 cents on the subject. I have fired this weapon many times since and the addition of a Butler Creek protector forearm(the kind you slip your hand through ) helped a bunch. Still when things go bump in the night its my Ithica Police special w/ #4 buck that rocks me back to sleep.
N.Y.G MP Pvt is offline  
Old January 18, 2000, 07:14 AM   #17
N.Y.G MP Pvt
Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Carmel NY USA
Posts: 49
I used to moonlight doing overnights @ my buddy's convenience store. Due to space restrictions behind the counter a full length shotgun was not an option. I bought a Speedwell pistol grip(kinda looks like someone sawed down a full stock) for my Maverick 88. I figured at that close range it would be very hard to miss. I loaded it w/ rubber OO(old riot control rounds we had laying around the Provost Marshals's office). At that range(like 15-18') i figured this round would be lethal while yet court defensable("I only meant to stop him""the police use this stuff"etc." Thank god I never had to use it but this was a case where a pistol grip was a must. I don't have a personal pistol permit(I carry a Beretta 92 on base) so I had to make do w/ a shotgun. I kept it loaded and cocked, but only racked it halfway forward(the way I hunt). Well that's my 1 1/2 cents on the subject. I have fired this weapon many times since and the addition of a Butler Creek protector forearm(the kind you slip your hand through ) helped a bunch. Still when things go bump in the night its my Ithica Police special w/ #4 buck that rocks me back to sleep.
N.Y.G MP Pvt is offline  
Old January 18, 2000, 04:40 PM   #18
jnix
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2000
Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 130
Well you know I recently purchased a Remington 870 Marine Magnum and put a butler creek folding stock on it. The first time that I fired it ( the first time that I fired any pistol grip shotgun ) I ended up with a pretty bruised thumb. After that I wised up and put gloves on I didn't have any problems after that. I got pretty accurate with it ( relatively speaking of course ) I could hit a man sized target center mass at a good 30 feet. But you still won't catch me sighting it in, you will loose teeth or break a nose that way.
jnix is offline  
Old January 18, 2000, 09:43 PM   #19
crowinghorse
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2000
Posts: 3
This is my first post here, and you all have no idea who I am, but here goes:
I have been a hunter almost my whole life and just recently decided to purchase a HD shotgun.
I traded my father for a Rem. 870 and put a improved cylinder 20" barrel on it.
I am putting a Speedfeed solid youth sports stock and L.E. forearm on it.
I will add a 8 shot tube mag. and barrel/mag clamp with swivel to add a sling later.
As for pistol grips: Don't do it!
I thought very carefully on this issue as I really like the LOOK of the Speedfeed solid p.g. stock. But they do not allow you to aquire a sight picture and, as you have read in this thread, busted lips hurt!
Jess
crowinghorse is offline  
Old January 20, 2000, 01:32 PM   #20
Phil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2000
Posts: 243
What loads are being used when the gun hits the face? How is it being held? i.e. with the receiver right up to the face?

The reason I ask is I have a Mossberg 500 pistol grip 12 ga. I have fired it sighting down the barrel (left arm extended, right arm cocked, receiver probably 8 -12 inches from my face. I haven't tried this with anything heavier than 6 shot game loads, but it has not been a problem managing the recoil. It doesn't even come close to smacking me. So are y'all doing this with 00 3 inch magnum shells or what?

BTW if I had it to do over, I would probably buy one with the shoulder stock, but I do not find the pistol grip to be worthless as long as you use it within its limitations. I first bought it because i wanted something easier to maneuver in the house for self defense. After a couple of boxes of practice, I could consistently hit milk jugs at 15 to 20 feet from the hip, so it should work for inside the house distances. Beyond that, no its not worth much. Fired from a raised postion, accuracy is of course much better.

I've since put a Choate top folder on it. Very well made and greatly increases the versatility of the gun, but it adds a lot of weight.

Phil is offline  
Old January 20, 2000, 02:54 PM   #21
Dave McC
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 13, 1999
Location: Columbia, Md, USA
Posts: 8,812
Phil, weight's not a bad idea on a HD shotgun, within reason. With all the bells and whistles, my HD 870 runs about 9 lbs. Recoil is negligible by shotgun standards, and it handles well becuase it's balanced between the hands.
Dave McC is offline  
Old January 20, 2000, 03:51 PM   #22
ctdonath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 1999
Posts: 1,902
Recently got a Mossberg 590 AOW, stockless, pistol grip, 14" barrel. With #8 birdshot it's quite controllable, and I don't have much trouble vaporizing pumpkins at 3-6 yards, either by "point shooting" or actual sighting; no complaints after 15 rounds. A single full-blown slug, however, was downright painful to point-shoot, and it was obvious that sighted firing would make my dentist happy.

Methinks this is the only gun that would benefit from a laser sight, or a tight-beam flashlight.

The gun has high cool value...which means it's practically useless. Other than the poster above who actually had a very narrow application for it (need for artillery in very close quarters), don't bother. I got it as it was the only way to pursue the "Class III experience" in NY.
ctdonath is offline  
Old January 20, 2000, 06:24 PM   #23
Dave McC
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 13, 1999
Location: Columbia, Md, USA
Posts: 8,812
How about you guys that like the PG shorties try some testing?

Set up 5 tombstone targets or similiar at realistic ranges, say 10-25 yards. Start off with a round in the chamber and time from a signal to start. Hit each target once, in any order you like. Check time and count holes.
Then do it again with a fully stocked weapon. Compare time and score. My money says you'll go with the full stock from then on....
Dave McC is offline  
Old January 20, 2000, 07:19 PM   #24
Phil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2000
Posts: 243
Dave McC

Ummm.. Who are you referring too? I just reread the posts and I didn't see anybody who said they liked the shorty. There were a couple who didn't totally, completely trash the concept, but nobody said, " hey its great, I can kick a.. at a 100 yards with it way better than a full stock. Great for skeet shooting."

regards
Phil is offline  
Old January 20, 2000, 09:02 PM   #25
N.Y.G MP Pvt
Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Carmel NY USA
Posts: 49
What is entailed in getting an AOW in New York State. Is it very difficult?
I a big fan of shorty shotguns and have wanted to own one for some time now.
N.Y.G MP Pvt is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12688 seconds with 7 queries