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Old December 8, 1999, 11:33 AM   #1
TheOtherMikey
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Found some Winchester upland game shotshells at a good price and bought a ten box case. Opened the first box to shoot trap and was surprised to see they have all steel bases. Maybe I've been living in a cave or something but this is the first time I have seen all steel bases.
The first and every one of the 25 rounds failed to eject from my Browning BT-99 trap gun. I had to pry every round out of the chamber. Does anybody have any ideas on the cause of this and how to remedy the problem....other than trashing 9 boxes of shells. Hope you can help, Mikey

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Retired, Broke, and In Need of Brass, Powder, and Shot. Will Work To Shoot!
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Old December 8, 1999, 10:40 PM   #2
gunrunner
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Sorry to hear of the problem, I would just take them back, I went by walmart and they have federal game loads 2 3/4 #7 1/2 1 1/8 oz loads for 3.99 a box of 25, faily cheap and i have put 200 thru my browning gold hunter with only 2 miss feeds, brass case, i would worry that steel on steel would cause greater wear than soft brass, just my observation but if these are really cheap i hope you find the solution, if you catch walmart on sale you can get 250 rounds of 12 ga for like 29.99, i just missed that sale, though.
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Old December 9, 1999, 09:18 AM   #3
fal308
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Another option would be to sell them to a cowboy action shooter. Most CAS shooters like the all brass shells for lookin' good, 'cause in CAS matches looks DO count
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Old December 9, 1999, 09:01 PM   #4
Big Bunny
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Steel, often with a brass flash-coat has been used by Winchester for many years for primers and 12GA shell heads, the steel is soft, so it performs well, unless you have to re-size it ! All my 3" mags are steel heads with no problems of reloading up to 10 times.

There should be no problems when used in any shotgun, unless there is excess head-space or loose fit around the head/ejector area using "hot" field-loads, perhaps.

But if you are not reloading or reloading only for one gun, then it should not be a problem.


If it still is, may I suggest a clean of the chamber area (and the barrel)with a Hoppes 'tornado' brush and if that fails a close examination of the fired hulls for abnormal marking/bulges -as the loadings may be suspect.

If that fails try them in another gun !

If that fails -talk to Winchester, I have found them very helpful indeed over some "over-cutting" on plastic premium compression-formed hulls, leading to holes along the crimps into the case after first-time reloading. They tracked it down to a badly adjusted machine at a peak time just defore the duck season, and donated 500 trapshells, once fired, in a package arriving on my doorstep!

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Old December 9, 1999, 09:05 PM   #5
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I just saw you use an auto....so the gas system may need cleaning/adjusting maybe for the new loads? I don't know, as I only use sXs and u/o and pumps myself.

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Old December 9, 1999, 09:23 PM   #6
TheOtherMikey
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No, Big Bunny, I don't use an auto. I'm shooting these in a well worn Browning BT-99 trap gun. I recently purchased the gun and have spent a lot of effort on removing the ejector mechanism and thoroughly cleaning all the components. I spent about half an hour with steel wool wrapped on my brass 12ga brush on the end of an electric drill to clean the chamber thouroughly. I really am at a loss as to what to do next. The Wichester AAs I bought on sale at WallyMart work flawlessly. Regards, Mikey
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Old December 9, 1999, 11:15 PM   #7
Big Bunny
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Mikey....If you have removed the ejectors have you replaced them correctly and have you checked the ejctor slots for extruded brass or dust, as this is a likely hang-up spot.

I used some Eley #6 once(excellent loads) with alumunium flashcoated steel heads. There was some distortion into the extractor slots of the Baikal IJ sXs I was using at the time, but always extracted OK.

Are your cases possible to extract by hand? If so, that would be OK for trap target/ clays - but a real nuisance for hunting.For clays I wouldn't be hassled that much, give me more time to think how I missed the last one !

I am afaid, Mikey, a gunsmith used to your gun's marque may be the only recourse, as it may be a combination of things including age of the gun, but probably easily fixed.

Do keep us at TFL posted if you find the answer.Must be the ammo if all other brands are OK ?

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Old December 10, 1999, 11:16 AM   #8
TheOtherMikey
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Thanks Big Bunny. I have to pry the spent hull out of the chamber with the head of another shell. It is a nuisance but I do have enough time to do it when all 5 trap positions are manned.
I guess saving a buck a box wasn't such a good deal....going to WallyMart to get another case of Win AAs then I'll have enough AA hulls to start reloading en masse! If I can reload the AAs 6-8 times, I'm saving a lot of money in the long run. The steel cased shells are going into the trash!
I don't think its a problem which a gunsmith can remedy. Yes, I did put the ejector and it's linkage in correctly as evidenced by the fact that it performs flawlessly on the AA shells.
Thanks to all for the suggestions, Mikey.

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Old December 10, 1999, 03:28 PM   #9
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Mikey Mikey Mikey!!! You know when you have ammo that won't fit your gun it's time to buy another gun! Mebbe an automatic...

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Old December 10, 1999, 04:54 PM   #10
Beano
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Hi OtherMikey,

To add to Big Bunny's advice.

Once I saw a thirty year old Browning, I think it was an A1 o/u (if its the wrong model name, sorry, I don't know much about their history) that refused to eject High Brass cartridges because it had heavy use with low brass cartridges (it always woked perfectly with these) and had developed a slight ridge inside the chamber. When high brass was used the expansion of the shell overpowered the ejectors and all empties had to be manually withdrawn from the chamber, sometimes requiring tools. It was most frustrating for the owner.

He finally had a gunsmith re-sleeve the chambers. Now the gun works perfectly with any ammo. I wonder if some sort of strange problem like this is causing your grief. If possible have a smith look at it.

ENJOY SHOTGUNNING and try ISSF SKEET
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Old December 10, 1999, 06:26 PM   #11
GreybeardB
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Mikey,

Your Browning has an extraction phase ( where the ejector lip prys the spent casing up to about 1/4 inch )

Then the ejection phase slaps the casing over your shoulder.

That's how it's supposed to work.

Your shell casing is evidently being lifted by the extractor to alow you to " pry the casing out with the head of another shell "

If you hear a "click" when you break the gun about half the way open, & the spent casing is not ejected, then your ejector mechanism could be weak or faulty in some way.

If there is no "click" at all, then your ejector mechanism IS at fault.

If the ejector trys,"clicks" then there is still another possible problem & that being an erroded ( ringed or oversized ) chamber which alows the steel casing head to stick to the chamber walls.

Also, the outside wall of the shell casing itself could be adhering to the chamber wall.
( some of the older paper & early plastic casings were ribbed to prevent this )

It would be interesting to know what your spent casing head mic's.

If they mic much over .805, this would indicate the steel is conforming to the possibly oversized chamber deminsions, & not springing back as brass does, causing it to seize.

I would wager your chamber is worn to oversize & / or ringed, allowing other casings ( brass heads ) to eject because the brass " sprang back " to less than chamber size.

Hope I've answered more questions than I've raised.

OPEN OR OUT



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Old December 10, 1999, 07:51 PM   #12
TheOtherMikey
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Look fellas, I think you are missing the point. First of all, I don't want an automatic for trap shooting.....you can only load one shell at a time anyhow. Second, it is not a high brass/low brass issue, as trap loads are all low brass. Finally, a trap gun only is supposed to extract the spent shell....not eject it. This is the problem. The shell isn't being extracted enough so that I can use my fingers to remove it....I have to use another shell case rim to pry it out enough so that I can remove it by hand. Thanks for the info but I think the answer is just not using steel cased shells. Win AA has another follower!!! Regards, MIkey

[This message has been edited by TheOtherMikey (edited December 10, 1999).]
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Old December 11, 1999, 12:22 AM   #13
house
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Theother mikey, you might want to check the ejection. you can actully make the gun eject shells or not. One guy at my trap club,his gun, his shells to dont eject for AAhules because he reloads for them. Now the shells he buys and does not relaod they eject. some were ( i know this) you can turn this opiton off or on but i do not know how.
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Old December 11, 1999, 10:35 AM   #14
Beano
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Hi OtherMikey,

Nobody want's an automatic to shoot trap. The reason is that the cycling of the action interferes with the shooters second shot and that different chokes are needed in each barrel of an over and under to shoot trap effectively.

This sounds wrong doesn't it. Well ATA trap which you are talking about, is only one form of trap and is only shot in the US. Most forms of trap require two shots to be loaded. Therefore, an o/u is the preferred shotgun.

By the way, the abbreviations, o/u and sxs, refer to Over and Under and Side by Side shotguns. These are double barrel shotguns and do not have any relationship to automatics whatsoever.

Over and Under shotguns (Trap, Skeet, Sporting and Field guns), as well as single barrel shotguns most definitely extract and EJECT spent shells.

If yours is not extracting the shell properly, far less ejecting it, then something is wrong with your gun.

I'm with Greybeard. I would wager that your chamber is worn to oversized &/or ringed.

Further, all trap shots are absolutely and definitely not low brass hulls. US Winchesters may be, but, have you seen Australian Winchesters. There are also a couple more ammo manufacturers around.

Read what Big Bunny and Greybeard have to say on the matter, carefully. I do not think that there is any quick home fix to this problem. Locate a qualified gunsmith and let him fix the problem.

ENJOY SHOTGUNNING and try ISSF Skeet.
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Old December 12, 1999, 03:45 PM   #15
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'Nuff said, good advice fellows.

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Old December 13, 1999, 11:17 AM   #16
TheOtherMikey
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Thanks to all for the advice. Regards, Mikey
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