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Old October 7, 1999, 11:53 PM   #1
StanA
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It's real strange this is the first time I have ever entered the shot gun forum. I read alot of post that answered some things. It sounds like a lot of you like the Rem's and some like the Mos's. Here is the deal I am wanting to buy a shotgun for home defence nothing more. I want a 12ga. I want short, I would like to know how many rounds it can hold out of box? And if it can be increased and be legal? I also would like to know if I could put a pistol style stock on and is that legal? And last but not least I do not want to spend a lot of money on it. It will not be used very much at all. And for home defence hopefully never. But I do want a reliable gun. So to all: Which shotgun meets these specs? And which would you recommend? Thanks to all Stan..
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Old October 8, 1999, 12:17 AM   #2
pete80
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If your going with a pump action shotgun, you have no restrictions concerning pistol grip stocks or folding stocks or mag extensions. The rules change when you have a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip or folding stock, then you may not put the extension on. But to answer your question, you may increase the guns firepower and put a cool pistol grip stock on it! The Mossberg Persuader is an 8 shot variant of the classic M500. It has a mean looking heat guard and comes with a pistol grip. Remington Home Defense 870 shotguns come with the standard stock (no pistol grip) and 4 round magazine. The suck thing about the new HD models is that they have dimples inside of the mag tube that prevent the owner from installing an extension (some say you can file em' or drill em', I'm not that abusive on my guns) My personal favorite, the Mossberg 590A1, with nine shot mag and ghost ring sites. It is a military contract shotgun, it passed some harsh MIL-SPEC testing with out a hitch. It has a hardened parkerized-rust resistant finish and 20 inch barrel. Remington does manufacture an extended capacity 870 shotgun called the Police Model. Civilians can legally purchase these, there are no laws restricting them. The gun has an 18 inch barrel with 7 shot magazine. It is like the HD but with wood stocks and mag extension.
Prices:
Mossberg 500 persuader $250-300
Mossberg 590A1 $350-400
Remington 870 HD $200-280
Remington 870 Police Model $380-450

I live in the Southern California area, so these prices may or may not reflect your areas prices. Good luck!
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Old October 8, 1999, 03:27 AM   #3
Woody
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Pete80 is right on with His prices in most of the country.

You state that you only want this gun for a deffense gun so I'd reccomend the Mossberg Persuader. It holds 8 rounds comes with a pistol grip and heat shield. It should serve your purpose. One thing I'd do if I were you is replace the stock hard pistolgrip with a set of Pachmyers grips. They are soft rubber and don't beat your hand to a pulp and add some measure on control.
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Old October 8, 1999, 11:10 AM   #4
StanA
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Thanks that is the things I was wanting to know! One question on the Mossberg Persuader how long is the barrel? And were do you find the Pachmyers grips? And how much do those run? Stan..
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Old October 8, 1999, 11:19 AM   #5
StanA
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PS what is the shotgun pictured on the tacstar web page at the top? That is kind of what I would like to end up with? Thanks Stan..
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Old October 8, 1999, 05:49 PM   #6
pete80
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The Persuader has a 20 inch barrel since it has no stock, it becomes extremely compact. I thing the gun on the TacStar website is a Remington 870.
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Old October 8, 1999, 08:50 PM   #7
Stopdropnroll
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a lot off good and resonably priced accs. can be found at www.bushmaster.com after some searching these were the best prices I have found...order to receiving took 6 days.

tac-star 6 round side saddle
heat shields
chaote mag extentions
speed feed stocks

SDnR

[This message has been edited by Stopdropnroll (edited October 08, 1999).]
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Old October 8, 1999, 09:12 PM   #8
B Shipley
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For not much $$$ you can have a gunsmith remove the dimple with a dent removal tool in the 870.
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Old October 9, 1999, 12:37 AM   #9
StanA
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Thanks Stopdropnroll for the Bushmaster link great site! I think with all of you guys helping me I will be able to buy and modify and make a great shotgun! Thanks Stan..
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Old October 9, 1999, 08:53 PM   #10
Rob62
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StanA,
Have you ever shot a shotgun with a pistol grip _only_ (and not the conventional pistol gripped butt stock)? If you have and you felt comfortable with it/were able to hit your target then disregard what I am about to say. Or I may have mis-read your post and in fact you are refering to a full pistol gripped stock.

I personally have had, and seen more people have problems with being able to effectively use pistol gripped only shotguns. Without *EXTENSIVE* practice it is extremly difficult to hit targets with these types of shotguns. I would say get a more conventionaly stocked shotgun even for home defense. If you like the pistol grip, there are full butt stocks out there that offer true pistol grips as part of their makeup. Choate used to make one of these types, I believe that they still due.

Rob

RKBA!

------------------
It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish.
-----------------

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Old October 12, 1999, 10:47 AM   #11
Sport45
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For home defense I don't see how you could beat a stock out-of-the-box 870 Express Deer Gun. 20 inch IC barrel. I can't imagine any fight breaking out in my house that one or two loads of 00 buck won't stop. 8, 9, 10 rounds? What kind of invasion are you expecting? Spend all the money you want. It helps our economy. But whatever you get, don't just load it up and stick it under the bed. Take it out and shoot it. Don't consider it reliable for self defense until you've pumped at least 100 through it without a hiccup. And clean and oil it afterwards.
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Old October 12, 1999, 07:06 PM   #12
StanA
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Sport45 I just wrote this letter to time magazine. By the way you should all write them they hate guns! But a answer to the question you asked: "What kind of invastion are you expecting?" You never really expect anything! - (I wrote this to the mag I will not ever buy!)
You have no clue! Yes you like guns have been around for many years. But the very negative article has made me to make the decision that I will never buy your magazine or look at your horrible wrong views!
I had two burglars break in two my home on 07-03-98 and beat me until I almost died. The only thing that saved my life was a HAND GUN that I did get to and fired one round and they did exit my home after. They were caught and I spent the next year in and out of the court system. They received I should say one received one of two felonies a spat on the wrist! Probation and I recently found out he moved to another state and is still in the military! It's not the GUNS! it's our system, Our system that makes lawyers and prosecutors rich. Our system that does protect the felons more then the innocent! If you do the crime you should have to face the consequences. Yes even if it involves a firearm. But there is a lot of honest law abiding firearm users! You know as well as anyone that if criminals did not have accesses to a firearm it would be bombs made from fertilizer or from pluming supplies! The real problem is that or government will not deal with the true problem! To much politics and money!
I realize that you will not respond to this message because there is no media involved or points to score for your magazine. But the truth will set you free and if you took a long look at it you would give your readers a fair assessment of the truth!

Sincerly
Stan . ........


[This message has been edited by StanA (edited October 12, 1999).]
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Old October 13, 1999, 11:24 PM   #13
voodoo
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B Shipley:

Can you elaborate about what you know about these "dimples", and how they can be removed??? I just purchased an 870 HD, knowing about the "dimples", but also knowing that they can be removed and a mag extension installed.

Thanks!
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Old October 15, 1999, 12:46 AM   #14
B Shipley
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I don't know much, since mine still has'em, until I get my new tube from scattergun tech., but I know that smiths have dent removal tools to fix barrels w/o having to trash them, and this works on tubes as well.



Brownells will sell the tool to you for ~$50, which seems more than a gunsmith would charge. I asked a smith and he said "no problem." Someone else mentioned it would take less than half an hour to do it.



As to the dimples, there are two, and they serve to hold the mag spring in place, not something you want when you put in a longer tube. You can drill or dremel them, but it isn't worth it to me to risk a screw-up. The barrel ring covers them from view, so the strategies mentioned will not affect appearances.
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Old October 15, 1999, 12:49 AM   #15
B Shipley
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I don't know much, since mine still has'em, until I get my new tube from scattergun tech., but I know that smiths have dent removal tools to fix barrels w/o having to trash them, and this works on tubes as well.



Brownells will sell the tool to you for ~$50, which seems more than a gunsmith would charge. I asked a smith and he said "no problem." Someone else mentioned it would take less than half an hour to do it.



As to the dimples, there are two, and they serve to hold the mag spring in place, not something you want when you put in a longer tube. You can drill or dremel them, but it isn't worth it to me to risk a screw-up. The barrel ring covers them from view, so the strategies mentioned will not affect appearances.
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Old October 15, 1999, 04:50 AM   #16
Dave McC
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Some thoughts on HD and shotguns from a retired Firearms Instructor.

Shotguns only work in a HD scenario IF ALL adults in the house are trained and effective with same.My wife dislikes shotgun but shoots handguns OK, so the Tactical 870 is my weapon, not hers.

As for those pistol grips, they're fine if you're auditioning for Miami Vice II,but not in AS scenarios. When I started instructing for the Md Dept of Public Safety,we had folding stocks with pistol grips for some rapid response vehicles. The Troops had a much harder time qualifying with them.
I'd only use hip shooting at contact distances. If you insist on so doing, practice much. Keep your forward elbow locked, or you'll hit high/right.

As for mag extensions, I use them more for recoil control than extra ammo. Face it, if a scenario takes more than 4 rounds of 00 to resolve, you probably need backup,not extra shots.

Also, if you can find a gunshop where police depts turn in old inventory,you can save a bundle.One of the 870s here at Casa McC started life as a cruiser weapon in Arlington Va, another in a gun tower at the Md Pen.Both will outlast me by several generations.

As for the bells and whistles,the best accessory is a coupla cases of ammo and some range time.

Hope this helps...
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Old October 16, 1999, 01:24 AM   #17
Wallew
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Re:HD dimples. Gunsmithing, like politics and sausage making are best NOT viewed in public.

Re:Pistol grip/folding stocks on shotguns. It IS much more difficult to control AND followup shots are a screaming b****. As a smith and a NRA Firearms instructor, I have tried them all. MY 590's both are full stocked and I can hit most targets immediately and follow up shots are a snap.
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Old October 17, 1999, 01:03 AM   #18
Swissrose
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StanA- re: pistol grip for your shotgun. I signed up for a tactical shotgun class and the instructor asked me right away whether I had a normal stock or a pistol grip on my shotgun. He said he would not even allow pistol grips in a tactical shotgun class because they were useless in defense situations. I thought this was interesting coming from a firearms instructor. For whatever it is worth!
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