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Old February 22, 2002, 10:08 AM   #1
Elkslayer
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Question for LEO on CCW

I have a CCW permit.

The situation is;

You and I are in a public area (McDonald's, the mall, etc.) you are near enough to me that when I go to pay for my purchase and reach for my wallet in a back pants pocket my holstered weapon is slightly exposed, just enough that you recognize it is a handgun.

What will your reaction be and how would you want me to respond?

I should have added: I'm 55 years old and in Wyoming you can't get a CCW permit if you are underage.

Last edited by Elkslayer; February 22, 2002 at 11:04 AM.
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Old February 22, 2002, 10:52 AM   #2
Joe Demko
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Depending on your age, maybe nothing.
If you are obviously underage to be in possession of a handgun, I am going to identify myself as a deputy sheriff and relieve you of said handgun on the spot. I want you to cooperate so that I don't need to pepper spray/billy club/shoot you. You are going to be handcuffed and you are going to take a ride back to the Sheriff's Office with me.
If you are of age to be in possession of a handgun and you are behaving in a normal, sober fashion then I may do nothing. This presumes, of course, that you are not already known to me as a miscreant. If that is the case, see above.
I will probably identify myself to you, if I am not in uniform, and inform you that you need to make a better effort at concealing your concealed weapon. Not because it scares other people or I consider a glimpse of a gun to be brandishing, but because a miscreant might see it and decide he needs it more than you. I'm trying to save you the embarassment of being mugged FOR your gun, IOW.
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Old February 22, 2002, 01:03 PM   #3
M1911
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Elkslayer:

Don't carry your wallet there. Make sure you can remove your wallet without flashing...

M1911
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Old February 22, 2002, 02:54 PM   #4
Jay Baker
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Roger what M1911 said.

I carry my Colt's Lightweight Commander on my right hip. I carry my wallet/idee in my LEFT hip pocket.

Works for me.

J.B.
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Old February 22, 2002, 03:20 PM   #5
woodland
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I'm not a cop, but I know when I carry I'm always VERY careful not to keep anything where it could possibly be glimpsed while moving or reaching for anything. Something I've always done is when I wear something new that I haven't carried in before, ( new coat, vest etc.) I put it on and then ask my wife to tell me if I'm carrying or not, while I do every day movements like bending over, raising arms up high, sitting etc. . So far I've never been "spotted". My friends and I always try to "spot " each other too when we see each other.
Just my .2 cents worth.
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Old February 22, 2002, 09:17 PM   #6
C.R.Sam
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I use Shepler's boot billfolds. Clip IWB in front. That way no chance of exposing weapon when goin for money.

Sam
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Old February 23, 2002, 07:57 AM   #7
trapshooter
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Not much more to add. Concealed means concealed. If you can see this possibility, you need to re-evaluate your method of carry, and carry in a manner appropriate for dress. No point in teasing the BG's, or scaring the sheeple.
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Old February 23, 2002, 09:14 AM   #8
KSFreeman
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Hi, ex-LEO here, my reaction would be a big yawn. See it all the time around here. If you had your license (you need a little pink license under my State's law to carry openly or concealed), I would not prosecute you because you're doing nothing wrong under Indiana law.

However, you want to check the statute for your particular hairy-chested, square state. In some states, like those with strict gun laws like Tejas, the weapon MUST be concealed or the mall ninjas get all upset.

BTW, I carry my wallet on the left side so I can have my strong hand free. Carry your briefcase on the support side too.
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Old February 23, 2002, 10:47 AM   #9
Logistar
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KSFreeman,

I am from KY and I believe that Indiana honors KY CCWs. Would my KY CCW help me if I carried openly in Indiana or would that still be illegal without the pink card you mentioned?

(Hope this isn't too far off topic.)

Thanks,
Logistar
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Old February 23, 2002, 12:08 PM   #10
KSFreeman
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Logistar, feel free to visit Indiana anytime. I would wait until the weather gets better about late March.

While you are here, please be aware that the Hoosier State recognizes the carry license of all states and foreign countries (like New Jersey) by the terms of that license.

"(b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana." Indiana Code 35-47--2-21(b).

If your Kentuc license sez that you must carry concealed then you must carry concealed here. I think TN once held that you had to carry only certain guns, then you could only carry "them guns," not others. If your Tejas license sez you must wear a silly hat, skinny sideburns, big belt buckle and elf boots, then you must wear the same gear here. If you Norwegian carry license sez you must wear your hair in double braids (mmmmm, double braids), then you cannot cut your hair when you visit if you wish to carry.
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Old February 23, 2002, 02:32 PM   #11
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Concealed is a fairly definite term in regard to guns in Texas. Display your gun to a cop and expect to be taken aside and questions. Remember, he doesn't know you are a good guy and more likely is thinking that if just flashed a gun in front of him, that you are a candidate for America's Dumbest Criminals. Most LEOs seem to be pro-permit (CHL). If it was an obvious accident and not something repeated, you might get lectured on making better clothing choices for concealed carrry.
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Old February 23, 2002, 04:58 PM   #12
Logistar
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Thanks KSFREEMAN!

I will assume that since open carry is legal in KY AND IN and I have a KY CCW, I can carry both open and concealed in IN without any additional paperwork/licenses.

It sounds like Indiana's laws are better than ours. I read (earlier on TFL) where an Indiana resident (stopped for a minor traffic violation in Louisville, KY) advised the officer that he was carrying. However, his valid IN permit was issued BEFORE he became 21. (I understand that the minimum age for permits is 18 in IN.)

But because KY law states that you must be 21, he was charged with carrying and was going to trial. That certainly sounds bad. I think all states should treat visitors as yours does.

Thanks for the reply!

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Old February 23, 2002, 07:34 PM   #13
Powderman
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A suggestion for CCW:

Consider a good shoulder holster.

I carry my Glock 22 in a Miami Classic rig, with a spare holder for handcuffs. It's comfortable, is concealed easily, and won't show the gun or holster if you're wearing a short jacket, which I am now.
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Old February 23, 2002, 10:25 PM   #14
yorec
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Back to the suggested scenario - I would feel a duty to at least let the guy know he's showing and since that means I'm gonna have to make contact with him, there are certain things I've got to be aware of and try to accomplish in the meantime, but I'll skip most of those. (officer safety issues)

But then again, around here, everything may change if he's wearing an open carry type holseter and it's just a jacket riding up. I would probably note weather the gun is nice or junk and forget about it. Only a purposefully hidden gun will draw my attention in Wyoming.

But if it is a concealed gun - First - I'd wait until he's seated at a booth before approaching. Then I'd walk over to his side and introduce myself - "Hi, I'm ______ and I would like to talk to you..."

Next I'd let him know that I'd seen what he had in his back pocket and ask if he had a CCW permit (note: not ask for it)

What I'd expect of the sloppy carrier - Up to this point hopefully he's surprised , but keeps his calm. (and continues to do so) Just sit there and listen, under no circumstances should he reach toward the already spotted firearm. Sigh - folks do silly things sometimes.

My actions - if the answer is "Yes, I have a CCW" - then I ask if it is in the same pocket. If "yes," advise him what is a silly place to keep it since I need to look at it now and really would prefer he not be grabbing things out of the same pocket. Hopefully I won't get a blank stare. Then I would ask for name and date of birth to do a DL check, hoping the CCW shows up there. If not, I'll have to retrieve his wallet or whatever holds his CCW permit to check it. He's not going ot be allowed to reach back there - "Sorry sir." Check the permit.

If the answer is "No I don't have a permit to carry concealed," I'm going to have to take stronger action, the first of which is to handcuff him and secure the weapon. We'll see if he needs arresting later orf at least a citation. It all depends on his story.

If everything is OK and the guy turns out to be just a sloppy CCWer, I'll swap a few carry tips with him, so he doesn't run into such a problem again, and wish hiim good day.
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Old February 24, 2002, 12:39 AM   #15
kogatana
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If you are in a “McDonald’s, the mall, etc.,” you are in private property. I hope you have already checked with the merchant about a policy on concealing a firearm while there. There is little sense in giving CCL holders a bad “rep” by ignoring the rules while a guest in somebody else’s “house.” I make it a point to check the signs on the door of the establishment for any prohibitions against carrying a firearm while in those premises. It helps (me anyway) to know the merchant’s bias towards a legally armed public. Courtesy goes a long way. An “…armed society” may be “a polite one,” but a merchant may ask you politely to vacate immediately if he’s posted a sign.

Most sales register stations will likely face the customer with the attendant’s back toward the wall. If you are making a purchase, you are likely not concerned about anyone else behind you; indicating that you are likely not there for nefarious reasons (unless you appear jittery, nervous, or are constantly looking back as if “casing” the place). The mere sight of your firearm would then not place me in condition orange. (If you were there with criminal intent, your firearm would already be in your hand.) Prudence would dictate that the official would maintain an “eye” on you for any indication of probable cause to … yada, yada, yada…. until you leave the premises.
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Old February 24, 2002, 07:35 AM   #16
shy_man
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Is the LEO questioning the guy spotted with a holster or gun is in uniform? If the LEO is in duty uniform, I would respectfully answer all his question, but if he is in civilian clothes and he is only one, I think I will not immediately answer him nor follow what he want. Perhaps I will be the one to ask him on what authority he is questioning me. I don't know in other states or countries, if their LEO's who are not in duty or not in uniform can just question a civilian who accidentally saw a CCW. I think, one leo in the street have the gots to question someone with CCW accidentally exposed if he thinks he can succumb the guy just in case.

I won't be easily surprised of such questioning of a LEO in Civilian clothes if he is just one guy. How do I know if he is real or not. Remember there are many bad cops also (I am referring my own country). So it depends How I am questioned, if he does politely or in accordance with existing laws.

Thanks
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