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Old November 9, 2005, 10:20 PM   #1
John 242
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Shotgun Slugs and Level III armor?

Hello,
I am looking for information of the effects on the wearer of a Level III or IIIA vest after a hit Edit; and save from a shotgun slug of the type (1 oz. rifled slug?) used in a self-defense shooting scenario. (Edited To add; I am interested because it is said that even if the vest stops the slug, that the wearer would be basically taken out of the fight. I don't agree with this.)
I have heard stories of "broken bones" instant incapacitation, and even death. I have been unable to find any real evidence to either confirm or deny this.
Personal experiences in this matter would be helpful, along with any links to authoritative websites.
Thank you very much,
John

Last edited by John 242; November 10, 2005 at 12:12 AM.
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Old November 9, 2005, 10:37 PM   #2
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Never mind, reply deleted. The more I think about this, the less inclined I am to think answering it is a good idea.
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:01 PM   #3
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Why?
Because this is my first post?
A little back ground....
Do you remember the guy from Second Chance body Armor who used to go around shooting himself? I believe his name was Richard Davis?
He used to demonstrate that not only would body armor save a life, but that a officer could also return fire after being shot. My question is whether a Shotgun slug, because of its larger mass would create enough trauma to render the wearer incapable of returning fire.
Take care,
John
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:07 PM   #4
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I've gotta wonder why some one joins this board and is asking this question right off the bat.

You say for a "home defense purpose."
How many home invaders have level three body armor? I don't feel right answering this type of question from some one that is not an established member. (not that I am)

You ask why?
Because we all have to wonder, as responsible gun owners, if some one may be asking this question for the purpose of knowing what may have more effect on those who wear body armor. We then make the connection that who wears body armor more than anyone.... POLICE.

Don't take offense, we just would hate to answer a question like this under the circumstances.
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
I've gotta wonder why some one joins this board and is asking this question right off the bat.
Because it was brought up over at 1911forum.com

Quote:
You say for a "home defense purpose."
Yes, home defense. Although I actually said "self-defense".
By the way, I personaly don't advocate slugs for home defense, I would actually recomend No.1 Buck, or if unavailible 00, but thats a different issue isn't it?

Quote:
How many home invaders have level three body armor?
I don't know. Probably next to none. However, I can tell you that it is availible.
Quote:
I don't feel right answering this type of question from some one that is not an established member. (not that I am)
No problem. I didn't come here to start trouble, mister.

Quote:
You ask why?
Because we all have to wonder, as responsible gun owners, if some one may be asking this question for the purpose of knowing what may have more effect on those who wear body armor. We then make the connection that who wears body armor more than anyone.... POLICE.
Fair enough. As I said, I didn't come here to get banned in one day.
A imformative link would be helpful though, if anyone has such info.


Quote:
Don't take offense, we just would hate to answer a question like this under the circumstances.
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:36 PM   #6
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See this thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=186590

The more I thought about it, the less comfortable I felt posting the information I have found about defeating body armor regardless of how many posts the person asking the question has. Practically all of the shootings involving body armor I have found accounts of were of police officers.

The forum at http://www.stoppingpower.net/ has a policy against any posts about defeating body armor. Until criminals actually start using body armor in significant numbers, I think that's a good policy.

I'll suggest you contact the manufacturer for information regarding the protection their products provide from shotgun fire.
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:37 PM   #7
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There was a link somewhere to a site where this guy shoots stuff and shows the results. A 12 ga went thru bullet resistant glass and body armour too. Actually it thru most stuff. So i would not recommend putting it on and having your buddy shoot you.
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:43 PM   #8
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Thank you,
I wasn't asking about defeating body armor. From what I understand, a slug shouldn't penetrate a Level III or IIIA vest. Perhaps a IIIA but that wasn't my question, perhaps I wasn't clear. Sorry.
I was more concerned with the trauma caused from a slug, after it was caught in the vest. In other words, a save.
(edited to add; I am trying to "myth bust" the "getting hit by a slug is like being hit by a freight train"..... myth. (couldn't think of a better word )
Thanks again,
John

(I will edit my original post to better reflect what my question is.)
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Last edited by John 242; November 10, 2005 at 03:15 AM.
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Old November 9, 2005, 11:45 PM   #9
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Newcastlejudo,
You mean this?
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm
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Old November 10, 2005, 12:40 AM   #10
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Not that it is really that relative to the question but I helped out with some armour trials a few years back.
I can personally say that I have seen body armour stop 50BMG ball at 100m.
I found this really amazing!! The vest was place on a dummy torso and fired at.
The dummy was completely flattened by the force of the impact but the round did not penetrate.
The vest stopped 7.62 Ball with minimal damage but did not stop 7.62 AP.
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Old November 10, 2005, 01:04 AM   #11
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Narrowneck,
Thanks man.
We watched a video at work the other day in which a soldier was hit in the chest by what I assume was a rifle bullet of some sort. He dropped to the ground and after a few seconds jumped up and ran behind a HMMV.
I've been told that a SAPI plate will stop 7.62x54R Ball.
I have a vest that is supposed to stop 9mm ball fired from a submachine gun. I would assume that makes it a Level IIIA without the plates in? Regardless, I am not going to shoot it, or myself with it on, in order to prove a point.

I am not so much worried about actual penetration, but as to whether a person can return fire more or less immediately after receiving a hit from a slug. Whats an ounce? About 700 grains? Moving at roughly 1500fps? It would hurt, but.... would it take a person out of the fight? I've heard the same about .44 mags, and .45ACP being able to knock people off their feet even if the bullet were stopped by the armor, and I call BS. Not long ago I saw something on
the History Channel (I think) on body armor. I believe It was Richard Davis who would go around shooting himself. Davis was shot, and then immediately picked up a revolver and emptied it into a near bye target. His point was to prove that the effects of trauma were not enough to prevent effective return fire. Apparently at that time many police officers felt that even if the armor worked they would be sitting ducks because they would be rendered unable to return fire. Davis proved otherwise.

However a shotgun slug is a different story. With that much mass and force, would the trauma be so great that even if the slug were stopped, would the blunt trauma incapacitate the wearer?
I am of the opinion that it would not incapacitate the wearer.
I just can't prove it.
Thanks.
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Last edited by John 242; November 10, 2005 at 03:16 AM.
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Old November 10, 2005, 01:22 AM   #12
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On that note,
just the other day we also were shown a video clip of an Afghani Army soldier attempting to shoot a SAPI plate held above the head of what appeared to be a US Marine (sorry Robert). At the urging of several other Americans, the Afghani fired his first shot and it was very low into the ground. That should have been the a big 'I'm doing something stupid' indicator. The next shot nailed the plate holder in the leg. So much for field testing SAPI plates.
Take care.
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Old November 10, 2005, 01:50 AM   #13
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I also am a bit more wary of what I post after that incident. Certainly anyone who needs to know about body armor effectiveness would be able to ask people who know, in person.
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Old November 10, 2005, 02:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
Certainly anyone who needs to know about body armor effectiveness would be able to ask people who know, in person.
I was currious.
I didn't know there was some sort of incident here in the past.
I didn't realize this was going to be so complicated. Who exactly am I supposed to ask this question "in person" to?
I am not a LEO. I am just Joe Schmoe.
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Old November 10, 2005, 02:30 AM   #15
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By the way, now that the 1911forums are back up, heres a URL to where all this started.....
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...81#post1122381
Thanks and take care,
John
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Old November 10, 2005, 09:28 AM   #16
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Newton's Third Law of Motion (every action has an equal and opposite reaction) suggests a shotgun slug delivering enough energy to break bones, instantly incapacitate or kill someone through blunt force trauma would also deliver some really mean recoil.
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Old November 10, 2005, 09:41 AM   #17
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Consider other things though when we talk about force on the target = force on the shooter.

Pressure = force / area. That slug is going to concentrate all of its force into its diameter, and if it is pointed into the point with the initial impact. Pressure in that area will be far higher than the same force distributed over the surface area of the stock in contact with the shoulder.

Impulse or the time it takes the force to be imparted on the target/shooter. A semi increases this time for the shooter as the action is cycled and force is dissipated and delayed. A proper stance will also alow the force to be disipated through the muscle structure of the shooter from the shoulder all the way down to the legs. The whole body abosrbes the recoil, down to the ground. The target on the other hand is not "prepared" for the impact as the shooter is. For the target there is no preparation for the force to be distributed through the muscle structure. The impact is immediate and concentrated at its point of contact.

No, you will still not make someone fly backwards but there are more things at play than just force of recoil vs. force of impact.
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Old November 10, 2005, 04:12 PM   #18
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As a private security officer of a major casino, I have to trust a small part of my life to my vest and my weapon.

From all I've seen on an average man (no huge body fat percentage) a shotgun slug to a vest, no matter what level of protection, would take that person out of the fight...UNLESS... the level of adrenaline were so great, combined with WHERE the shot was placed, that effectively became "unfeelable" at the moment of impact.

I wouldn't count on it though. I've seen videos of men being shot over the heart with a IIIA vest on (with a .45 ACP) and they were out of the fight. A slug could only be worse.

That being said, I'd rather be out of the fight then dead, and I believe that being "out of the fight" is relative anyhow. If you get knocked to the ground, or cant find cover, or whatever it may be, I still believe it might be possible to return fire at least.
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Old November 10, 2005, 07:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Whats an ounce? About 700 grains?

Not being a jerk, just telling you because I see it on my scale every time I load some up, but an ounce is around 437.5 grains if I remember correctly...

Now the real question is if a 4-bore (about 2000 grains at around 1500 fps, I think), or better yet a 2-bore (3400 grains at 1400fps) would knock someone wearing a level III vest out of the fight.
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Old November 10, 2005, 07:44 PM   #20
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here is exactly the amount 0f typical trauma 12 gauge could produce with III
amour
Chase
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm
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Old November 10, 2005, 07:48 PM   #21
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Varmint

thats a repost....
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Old November 10, 2005, 09:06 PM   #22
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No Name XII,
Quote:
Not being a jerk, just telling you because I see it on my scale every time I load some up, but an ounce is around 437.5 grains if I remember correctly...
You didn't come across as a jerk, and thanks for taking the time to post.
I think there is a chart on the side of my RCBS 10-10, but I was posting from memory. Should have gotten off my rear and checked it out. Thank you for pointing out my mistake.

brokendreams,
Quote:
I wouldn't count on it though. I've seen videos of men being shot over the heart with a IIIA vest on (with a .45 ACP) and they were out of the fight. A slug could only be worse.

That being said, I'd rather be out of the fight then dead, and I believe that being "out of the fight" is relative anyhow. If you get knocked to the ground, or cant find cover, or whatever it may be, I still believe it might be possible to return fire at least.
There was a story on another forum about a LEO being shot in the back of his vest by a .22LR and being knocked to the ground. To me it seems this is more likely due to surprise and shock rather than the power of a 40 grain lead bullet. Possibly a psychological reaction?
Like you, I think it may be possible to return fire, after being hit by a slug.
By the way, what I mean by "taken out of the fight" is being rendered unable to return fire. Being knocked to the ground IMO does not necessarily mean you're unable to continue the fight. Massive trauma on the other hand may "take the fight" out of a person.

I want to thank everyone who has responded to this thread so far.
I appreciate it. Take care.
John
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Old November 10, 2005, 09:25 PM   #23
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wouldnt a magnum 2 3/4 slug actually penetrate any vest where the wearer wasnt wearing additonal ceramic trauma plates? Isnt level 3 only adequate for sub guns and high velocity pistol rounds? Even if for some odd reason it didnt go through...you would probably have enough internally injuries that would put you out or kill you.... I dunno..but I always thought that for sheer power the slug was number 1.
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Old November 10, 2005, 09:54 PM   #24
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From the National Institute of Justice
Ballistic Resistance of Police Body Armor
NIJ Standard 0101.03
April 1987

2.5 Type III ( High-Powered Rifle)
This armor protects against 7.62 mm full metal jacketed bullets (U.S. military designation M80), with nominal masses of 9.7 g (150 gr) impacting at a velocity of 838 m (2750 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against threats such as 223 Remington (5.56 mm FMJ), 30 Carbine FMJ, and 12 gauge rifled slug, as well as the threats mentioned in sections 2.1 through 2.4.
http://www.justnet.org/txtfiles/Body...3.html#forward
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Old November 10, 2005, 09:55 PM   #25
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And;
2.4 Type III-A (44 Magnum; Submachine Gun 9 mm)
This armor protects against 44 Magnum, lead semi-wadcutter bullets with gas checks, nominal masses of 15.55 g (240 gr) and impacting at a velocity of 426 m (1400 ft) per second or less, and 9 mm full metal jacketed bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a velocity of 426 m (1400 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the threats mentioned in sections 2.1 through 2.3

Take care,
John
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