Stocks?

Marcus · November 8, 1998, 11:43 AM

I`m looking for informed opinions on shotgun stock configurations. Full conventional stock vs. full pistol grip stock vs. side folder. I`m interested in increasing the mobility of my 870 in tight spaces,the walnut stock can be difficult to manage while working light switches,opening doors etc. I`m aware of several techniques for doing this but I`m not sure that I`m satisfied with using them in the guns current configuration. I`m looking into a full pistol gripped stock ala Choate for this reason. The ability to shorten the weapons overall length for storage and transport would also be handy so a Choate side folder is also being considered. What do you guys think? Marcus

pate · November 8, 1998, 12:48 PM

If you want to save some bucks, you could go with a Butler Creek folder. It locks out solidly and allows the weapon to be fired with the stock folded, if necessary. FWIW, I find the pistol grip on it to be much more ergonomic than the standard stock.

Spectre · November 8, 1998, 03:09 PM

I have purchased a top-folding Choate stock for my M500. I will be more able to say how well it works after I have managed to install it. (Stock:1. Screwdrivers:0)

pate · November 8, 1998, 05:59 PM

Erick, have you tried the Butler Creek folders? The one on my Mossberg is about two inches shorter than the factory stock. It also has a pretty thick recoil pad. I can't comment on the Choate folders because I haven't tried them out.

Marcus · November 8, 1998, 11:08 PM

Erick you make a very good point about the factory stock length. I`m 6'2" and the factory stock is still too long,who were they trying to fit these things to,the Jolly Green Giant? I find that many of my military rifles have much shorter stocks and are as you say much more user friendly. I`m going to look into shortening the factory stock as well as the Butler Creek folder. Thanks for the input. Marcus

EricO · November 14, 1998, 01:42 PM

Marcus, Erick's point about shortening the stock is certainly valid. I just received my Marine Mag. 870 back from a smith who, along with installing adj. Sage ghostrings and porting, replaced my factory nylon Rem. stock with a solid Speedfeed model. I noticed a difference when I first picked it up. It's easier to mount, without the top of the buttpad catching on clothing, and seems to make the entire weapon feel shorter and more maneuverable. The fore-end replacement now allows the use of a sidesaddle without cutting the length of the stock Rem. model. As far as pistol grip stocks, I believe that with most people, unless they have alot of time on a pistol gripped weapon such as a AR15/M16, i.e, military exp, then the straight regular stock is quicker to utilize, and more natural, because of prior shooting experience with straight stocks. EricO

Rob Pincus · November 14, 1998, 03:25 PM

My preference is the full stock with the PG, this allow convenient and accurate one handed operation of the weapon (if semi-auto..or at least for one shot with a pump). Erick is 100% on the money with shortening the stock on a tactical gun. I took all of the spacers our of my Benelli stock, if it were wood, I'd stil chop another inch of so off.

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-Essayons

John · November 14, 1998, 09:27 PM

I have a pistol grip shotgun, but I find it somewhat unnatural to use. Plus you can fire a shotgun with a stock from the hip, but it is difficult to fire a pistol grip from the shoulder. It is also harder to butt stroke with a pistol grip. I guess I am trying to say for me the advantage of a slightly shorter shotgun does not outweigh the advantges of a shotgun with a stock. John

Rob Pincus · November 15, 1998, 12:00 AM

I would have to disagree with you John. It may be more difficult for you if you are used to a traditional grip, but I fire from the shoulder with my PG in sporting clays, trap, skeet, bird hunting, 5-stand, two-man flurry and any other shotgun activity that my wife makes me compete in.
(though that may end if I really buy a Saiga, it just might attract even more attention that the PG Benelli)
I think that it is just a matter of training yourself to use whichever you have.

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-Essayons

Spectre · November 16, 1998, 06:10 PM

Saiga! Saiga! Saiga!

The only question I have, Rob, is whether one can fire slugs through it, as I understand it has a full choke...

Rob Pincus · November 16, 1998, 06:23 PM

I have had good experience with slugs through a full choke in a few shotguns. Not sure what the conventional wisdom is against it.

I am much more worried about being able to make a good showing at the clays fields with it. IT would defeat the whole purpose to get all the funny looks and then not do well in the competitions.

If I get one I will send the barrel to Ballistics specialties for some screw in chokes anyway. Even if they do laugh at me.

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-Essayons

Terry · November 16, 1998, 06:42 PM

Rob/Spectre, forgive my ignorance (I guess I'm not up on the latest in shotguns) but what is a Saiga?

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Rob Pincus · November 16, 1998, 09:26 PM

It is an obscure little thing that has been getting a decent amount of mainstream attention lately. Saiga has taken the AK-47 and built semi-traditional hunting rifles and shotguns on the reciever.

The Shotgun got a write-up in last month's G&A and uses a detachable magazine.

They are reportedly being imported to the US now, but I haven't actually seen one in person. I plan on buying one at the SHOT show this year, if they are (1) available (2) haven't become outrageously pricey due to their increasing "gotta-have-one" popularity and thoughts that the ATF may designate them as destructive devices because of the detachable mags.

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-Essayons

**4V50 Gary** · November 17, 1998, 09:20 AM

The Saiga was designed by Gennady Nikonov who did extensive reengineering of the Kalashnikov receiver to make it reliable for shotgun shells. Guide rails were lowered, receiver and ejection port enlargened.

The 12 ga has a two position gas regulator which should be switched to "2" when shooting 3" magnums.

Five and seven round polymer magazines were made for the gun. (Ten rounds were experimented with but it is unknown whether it will be produced). Chokes are screw in types. Besides sporting stocks, there are pistol grip and folding stock versions (with the folder looking much like a conventional plastic AK-47 stock.

It's only a matter of time before the Russians invent the Ghost Ring for it.

Spectre · November 17, 1998, 05:47 PM

Rob,

I believe the concern about firing slugs through full choke is KB caused by barrel diameter being too tight for the OD of the slug. I have seen warnings on slug boxes, to the effect of not firing them through anything tighter than improved cylinder, I believe. (I'm not sure if that was the choke, but it would definitely preclude using a full choke.)
I am NOT a believer in auto shotguns for (1) Reliability, (2) Cost and (3) Weight issues. I would make an exception for an AK, though, especially since this one seems to be pretty accurate, for a shotgun. I realize it would mean a whole new manual-of-arms, but BFD. Get 'em while they're hot, and you still can, accorded the priviledge by our benevolent and loving betters.

Rob Pincus · November 17, 1998, 07:10 PM

Spectre,
Believe me, I am not one to go against the Manufacturers warnings, but I have a few boxes of slugs here at the house and the only thing close to what you mentioned is a box of Remington Slugger which say "Slugs may be fired through any choke but improved cylinder is best."

I would think that Saboted slugs (which the aformentioned remington are not) would probably be less prone to the Kb! factor, if not completely immune.

I looked around the net and found the following:

Mossberg says not to use slugs in 835 field barrels with accuchoke at any choke diameter
http://www.mossberg.com/faqs.htm#shootslugs

An older article at alloutdoors mentions that cyclinder choke is a good choice for accuracy but mentions nothing about a safety issue with tighter chokes.
http://www.alloutdoors.com/alloutdoors/Library/Hunting/Big/accrev.html

Winchester offers a smoothbore 1300 Ranger slug barrel with rifle site, etc.. with a cylinder choke
http://www.winchester-guns.com/catalog/modl1300/1300feld/13rngcmb/13rngcmb.htm

I was disappointed that there wasn't more info readily available.

Certainly, there will at least be some slugs that the Saiga will be able to shoot safely.

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-Essayons

Spectre · November 18, 1998, 05:51 PM

I had essentially thought the same thing about discarding-sabot slugs through full chokes...I do remember reading an article some years ago that warned against slugs through too tight a choke, but can't remember when/where.

The 835 warning has to do with the overbored barrel.

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November 8, 1998, 11:43 AM	#1
Marcus Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 1998 Posts: 1,156	I`m looking for informed opinions on shotgun stock configurations. Full conventional stock vs. full pistol grip stock vs. side folder. I`m interested in increasing the mobility of my 870 in tight spaces,the walnut stock can be difficult to manage while working light switches,opening doors etc. I`m aware of several techniques for doing this but I`m not sure that I`m satisfied with using them in the guns current configuration. I`m looking into a full pistol gripped stock ala Choate for this reason. The ability to shorten the weapons overall length for storage and transport would also be handy so a Choate side folder is also being considered. What do you guys think? Marcus

November 8, 1998, 12:48 PM	#2
pate Member Join Date: October 30, 1998 Posts: 53	If you want to save some bucks, you could go with a Butler Creek folder. It locks out solidly and allows the weapon to be fired with the stock folded, if necessary. FWIW, I find the pistol grip on it to be much more ergonomic than the standard stock.

November 8, 1998, 03:09 PM	#3
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I have purchased a top-folding Choate stock for my M500. I will be more able to say how well it works after I have managed to install it. (Stock:1. Screwdrivers:0)

November 8, 1998, 05:59 PM	#4
pate Member Join Date: October 30, 1998 Posts: 53	Erick, have you tried the Butler Creek folders? The one on my Mossberg is about two inches shorter than the factory stock. It also has a pretty thick recoil pad. I can't comment on the Choate folders because I haven't tried them out.

November 8, 1998, 11:08 PM	#5
Marcus Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 1998 Posts: 1,156	Erick you make a very good point about the factory stock length. I`m 6'2" and the factory stock is still too long,who were they trying to fit these things to,the Jolly Green Giant? I find that many of my military rifles have much shorter stocks and are as you say much more user friendly. I`m going to look into shortening the factory stock as well as the Butler Creek folder. Thanks for the input. Marcus

November 14, 1998, 01:42 PM	#6
EricO Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1998 Posts: 124	Marcus, Erick's point about shortening the stock is certainly valid. I just received my Marine Mag. 870 back from a smith who, along with installing adj. Sage ghostrings and porting, replaced my factory nylon Rem. stock with a solid Speedfeed model. I noticed a difference when I first picked it up. It's easier to mount, without the top of the buttpad catching on clothing, and seems to make the entire weapon feel shorter and more maneuverable. The fore-end replacement now allows the use of a sidesaddle without cutting the length of the stock Rem. model. As far as pistol grip stocks, I believe that with most people, unless they have alot of time on a pistol gripped weapon such as a AR15/M16, i.e, military exp, then the straight regular stock is quicker to utilize, and more natural, because of prior shooting experience with straight stocks. EricO

November 14, 1998, 03:25 PM	#7
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	My preference is the full stock with the PG, this allow convenient and accurate one handed operation of the weapon (if semi-auto..or at least for one shot with a pump). Erick is 100% on the money with shortening the stock on a tactical gun. I took all of the spacers our of my Benelli stock, if it were wood, I'd stil chop another inch of so off. ------------------ *-Essayons*

November 14, 1998, 09:27 PM	#8
John Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Virginia Posts: 37	I have a pistol grip shotgun, but I find it somewhat unnatural to use. Plus you can fire a shotgun with a stock from the hip, but it is difficult to fire a pistol grip from the shoulder. It is also harder to butt stroke with a pistol grip. I guess I am trying to say for me the advantage of a slightly shorter shotgun does not outweigh the advantges of a shotgun with a stock. John

November 15, 1998, 12:00 AM	#9
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I would have to disagree with you John. It may be more difficult for you if you are used to a traditional grip, but I fire from the shoulder with my PG in sporting clays, trap, skeet, bird hunting, 5-stand, two-man flurry and any other shotgun activity that my wife makes me compete in. (though that may end if I really buy a Saiga, it just might attract even more attention that the PG Benelli) I think that it is just a matter of training yourself to use whichever you have. ------------------ *-Essayons*

November 16, 1998, 06:10 PM	#10
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Saiga! Saiga! Saiga! The only question I have, Rob, is whether one can fire slugs through it, as I understand it has a full choke...

November 16, 1998, 06:23 PM	#11
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I have had good experience with slugs through a full choke in a few shotguns. Not sure what the conventional wisdom is against it. I am much more worried about being able to make a good showing at the clays fields with it. IT would defeat the whole purpose to get all the funny looks and then not do well in the competitions. If I get one I will send the barrel to Ballistics specialties for some screw in chokes anyway. Even if they do laugh at me. ------------------ *-Essayons*

November 16, 1998, 06:42 PM	#12
Terry Member Join Date: November 3, 1998 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 33	Rob/Spectre, forgive my ignorance (I guess I'm not up on the latest in shotguns) but what is a Saiga? ------------------

November 16, 1998, 09:26 PM	#13
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	It is an obscure little thing that has been getting a decent amount of mainstream attention lately. Saiga has taken the AK-47 and built semi-traditional hunting rifles and shotguns on the reciever. The Shotgun got a write-up in last month's G&A and uses a detachable magazine. They are reportedly being imported to the US now, but I haven't actually seen one in person. I plan on buying one at the SHOT show this year, if they are (1) available (2) haven't become outrageously pricey due to their increasing "gotta-have-one" popularity and thoughts that the ATF may designate them as destructive devices because of the detachable mags. ------------------ *-Essayons*

November 17, 1998, 09:20 AM	#14
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	The Saiga was designed by Gennady Nikonov who did extensive reengineering of the Kalashnikov receiver to make it reliable for shotgun shells. Guide rails were lowered, receiver and ejection port enlargened. The 12 ga has a two position gas regulator which should be switched to "2" when shooting 3" magnums. Five and seven round polymer magazines were made for the gun. (Ten rounds were experimented with but it is unknown whether it will be produced). Chokes are screw in types. Besides sporting stocks, there are pistol grip and folding stock versions (with the folder looking much like a conventional plastic AK-47 stock. It's only a matter of time before the Russians invent the Ghost Ring for it.

November 17, 1998, 05:47 PM	#15
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Rob, I believe the concern about firing slugs through full choke is KB caused by barrel diameter being too tight for the OD of the slug. I have seen warnings on slug boxes, to the effect of not firing them through anything tighter than improved cylinder, I believe. (I'm not sure if that was the choke, but it would definitely preclude using a full choke.) I am NOT a believer in auto shotguns for (1) Reliability, (2) Cost and (3) Weight issues. I would make an exception for an AK, though, especially since this one seems to be pretty accurate, for a shotgun. I realize it would mean a whole new manual-of-arms, but BFD. Get 'em while they're hot, and you still can, accorded the priviledge by our benevolent and loving betters.

November 17, 1998, 07:10 PM	#16
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Spectre, Believe me, I am not one to go against the Manufacturers warnings, but I have a few boxes of slugs here at the house and the only thing close to what you mentioned is a box of Remington Slugger which say "Slugs may be fired through any choke but improved cylinder is best." I would think that Saboted slugs (which the aformentioned remington are not) would probably be less prone to the Kb! factor, if not completely immune. I looked around the net and found the following: Mossberg says not to use slugs in 835 field barrels with accuchoke at any choke diameter http://www.mossberg.com/faqs.htm#shootslugs An older article at alloutdoors mentions that cyclinder choke is a good choice for accuracy but mentions nothing about a safety issue with tighter chokes. http://www.alloutdoors.com/alloutdoors/Library/Hunting/Big/accrev.html Winchester offers a smoothbore 1300 Ranger slug barrel with rifle site, etc.. with a cylinder choke http://www.winchester-guns.com/catalog/modl1300/1300feld/13rngcmb/13rngcmb.htm I was disappointed that there wasn't more info readily available. Certainly, there will at least be some slugs that the Saiga will be able to shoot safely. ------------------ *-Essayons*

November 18, 1998, 05:51 PM	#17
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I had essentially thought the same thing about discarding-sabot slugs through full chokes...I do remember reading an article some years ago that warned against slugs through too tight a choke, but can't remember when/where. The 835 warning has to do with the overbored barrel.