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Old February 3, 2002, 07:41 PM   #1
Demogorgo
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My first FFL transfer: An absolute disaster.

Last month, I got on gunbroker and decided to buy a gun that I can't find anywhere over here. This requires that I do a transfer involving an FFL holder, which I've never done before. I won the Gunbroker auction from a seller with lots of good feedback. I then printed gunbroker's and the seller's email messages, made a money order, and wrote out and stamped an envelope.

After visiting a friendly gun dealer who I did some business with, I asked if he did FFL transfers. He said yes, and that I'd have to pay $20 when the gun arrived. All he has to do is sign a form and send it with the payment and info to the seller. I let him do this and emailed the seller my address/phone as well as that of the FFL holder.

It's weeks later. I saw auctions on his feedback that ended after mine and the buyers left good feedback after recieving their items. I asked the FFL holder if he got my item, he said "no". I asked the seller what's up, he had to check. Later, he said that he never recieved my payment, which would explain why I never recieved the gun.

Did I do something wrong here?

The seller doesn't seem too bright, his mails are short sentences in all-caps with no punctuation, and I had to re-iterate info that was already quoted in my messages. But he has a lot of good feedback, so what can I say? Maybe there's a way to check if the money order's been cashed if I still have the stub. I don't think he intentionally ripped me off, but he does seem more than dumb enough to make a mistake.

I guess my plan is to find out if I can cancel that money order and get my money back for it, I don't know if my bank will do that but I'll see. I can bother the FFL holder about it again, but I don't want to give the third degree to the only dealer here that I trust. I don't think anybody's ripped me off here, because I sure don't know a way to cash a money order made out to someone else; and the envelope doesn't look like it has money in it, so I doubt that any postal employees got it (I'm more worried that they'll see the "steal me" sticker if/when my gun is sent).

I want this to be over soon, this is definitely the last FFL transaction I'll ever do. There's just too many people involved that can **** it up. If anybody has suggestions about what I can do, I'd appreciate it.
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Old February 3, 2002, 11:31 PM   #2
Coronach
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Sounds like you had more of a problem with buying a gun on an internet auction than with a FFL transfer. I don't intend to be picky, but they are not the same thing. I got semi-screwed on a deal via Ebay once, same sorta thing.

Caveat Emptor, alas.

Mike
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Old February 4, 2002, 12:49 AM   #3
jeff c.
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Demo...

This dealer isn't from southern Ill. is he?
If so, I think we are both having problems.

It took 3.5 weeks to get the WRONG gun shipped to my FFL.
I sent out a US Postal money order, they make you wait
60 day's for the MO to clear before they will reissue.

I'm still waiting to get the correct gun...and the check for
the extra shipping.

Good luck!

Jeff C.
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Old February 4, 2002, 02:28 AM   #4
Nanaimo Barr
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if it was a US Postal Service Money Order, then I do believe the Post Office can check to see if it has cleared. call your Local Postmaster and ask.

if it HAS cleared. the US Postal Service takes a VERY dim view of Postal Fraud....

it is possible that the letter from your FFL to the seller got "misplaced" by the P.O. (believe it or not.. it does happen! REALLY! I have friends who work there and tell me it's true! Grin)

your Postmaster can fill you in on the procedure to Cancel the Money Order and just go through the paper work again..

good luck!
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Old February 5, 2002, 12:07 AM   #5
mpthole
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Also, be sure to send it certified mail or signature required. That way, you'll get a piece of paper back proving that it was delivered.
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Old February 5, 2002, 01:28 AM   #6
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Photocopy as much as possible before you send it, like the money order, then take and photocopy the postal receipt for certified, return receipt requested, on your way home and then put the originals in an envelope and staple them to to your photocopies.

If possible, go to the office supply store and buy several sheets of very loudly colored paper to use to make photocopies. Neon green, hot pink, or goldenrod, etc. make the backup copies easy to find. And then seal it all into a gallon baggie.
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Old February 5, 2002, 05:33 AM   #7
Demogorgo
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Sorry Jeff, this seller is from Atlanta; but I hope that we both learn from this thread.

Thanks for the advice, guys. A little update, I checked with the bank, and the money order was not cashed, so I can't accuse him of fraud or tell him to hurry up and send my gun. If I do anything like this again, I'll send the payment with the works: registered mail, tracking, etc... I was in a hurry to send payment the same day because I needed the gun on the following week (HAHAHAHA).

One thing I noticed about the seller while digging into his feedback: He might have an A+ rating, but sometimes he denies that he got a payment on items where he set the starting bid too low. When confronted by these buyers, he'll say that completing the transaction would be "a loss" and that he's "not that stupid". Why would he set the starting bid to a cost that he's not willing to sell at? And even then, why tell the buyer to send payment? This makes no sense at all.

This is one such item; he had 5 identical ones that he was selling for about $50 more. If I run out of ideas, I think I'll just pump up the pressure on him.

I'll double-check with the FFL holder. If I don't find anything out, I think that I'm going to tell the seller that I will block payment on the MO if he didn't really recieve it. Maybe that will make him think about the transaction.
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Old February 5, 2002, 01:19 PM   #8
Nanaimo Barr
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report him to the Auction for fraud.. if thats what he is doing then that IS fraud.. if I offer to sell you something for $10.00 and you accept and send the money, then I change my mind.. that is fraud in most juristictions.

this is one of the reasons I NEVER buy stuff from online auctions.. there to easy to screw the buyer. the auction house doesn't care.

I would report this data to Gunbroker.com (I assume that is who you went through) see if he still has a A+ rating after that
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Old February 6, 2002, 04:06 AM   #9
USofA
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I sell a lot, and occasionally buy, on Ebay, and this does occasionally happen. As stated before, getting delivery confirmation was the one important thing you should have done.
Without it it is extremely difficult to prove whether he ever did receive your payment if it isn't cashed. If that is the case, every type of money order I have seen can be reported lost or stolen, and the funds returned to you. I have limited, and luckily all good, experience on Gunbroker, but a seller on Ebay with multiple reports of this type of situation with not honoring low price auctions will be shut down. I would report it if it gets that far. These auction sites depend on the integrity of their sellers and buyers to remain viable, and they have very little patience for anyone damaging their reputation or running off new customers. As far as the item being stolen or lost in transit to you, you should always make sure the seller insures the item for the full value. Once they have received your payment, they are required to get you the product or refund your money, despite all the claims of 'not responsible for items lost' disclaimers.

If the payment is received through the mail, and no product is provided in return, it is considered mail fraud. I had this happen to me once on Ebay, and a few weeks later the postal inspector from his town called me for a statement as they were indicting this person for mail fraud. They are serious about this.

I understand that this being your first try, with all these problems, you would be angry and disappointed, but I would not swear off any future similiar transactions because of it. These auction sites are a good tool, especially when looking for something unique and not commonly available. I have done hundreds of transactions, and 99.9% have been positive. Use delivery confirmation on the payment, and it will be much easier on you. I think you would be pleasantly surprised by how easy most transactions are, and how helpful most sellers are. Unfortunatley there are idiots in any type of business. Good luck.
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Old February 6, 2002, 05:39 AM   #10
Demogorgo
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Thanks for the info, both of you. I'm more worried about getting him to send my gun than getting him dealt with on gunbroker; I'll take that approach when I get desperate (but I probalbly will very soon). I feel like I have to persuade, threaten or trick this person into doing something he should have done weeks ago, and that is not fun.

I've bought well over 100 items on eBay myself, and only one of them was a ripoff, so I can believe that part about 99% of transactions being good. However, I've never bought an item for over $100, so this seems like a whole new game; especially when there's one more person to deal with. I started out doubtful that I'd get my item before my big weekend and now I'm worried that I'll never get the item, period; so my expectations haven't been met at all, it makes the idea of buying a gun online or through the mail look like less of a good idea to me.

Whatever happens, I know what I would do differently next time, and I thank you all for your advice.

One last question, if I come to a point where I know I'm not going to recieve my item, what do I tell the FFL holder? Does he need to know that the item isn't coming back?
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Old February 6, 2002, 11:25 AM   #11
Denny
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FFL

I had a dealer in California who shafted me. SOld me a 625 that he claimed was 98%. Got the gun and it looked like it was dragged behind a police car. The front sight was off and the finish terrible.
BUYER BEWARE>
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Old February 6, 2002, 10:49 PM   #12
jeff c.
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DEMO...

If it has been 3 weeks you can go on GunBroker.com and follow the links to the help section for buyers.

They have a form that you can check-off the area that matches your problem.
Check the box for "sent money---did not recieve product."

They will forward your message thru their server. It may help to get the sellers attention.

Feel free to e-mail me direct, maybe I can be of some help.

Later,
Jeff C.
ixlr8rt@aol.com

edited for fat fingers...............
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Old February 15, 2002, 02:48 PM   #13
graystar
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Yes, you did something wrong.

First of all, when you purchase guns like that you have to act as a manager; laying out the steps of the process, making sure everyone has the correct information, and following up.

The FFLs only need to exchange signed copies of their FFL licenses. This is mandated by law and is a completely separate arrangement from your arrangement to purchase a gun.

*YOU* were supposed to send the payment to the dealer.

How did you pay? However you paid, you'll have to verify that it went through. However, you still have a problem. Since you depended on your dealer to send the payment, it's possible that he just stole it for himself.

It may also be possible that the dealer received the payment with the license, but didn't make the association of that payment to your purchase (it may be in his find-out-what-this-is-about pile). Call and ask if he received the license from whoever your FFL is. Inform him that your payment was with the license.

You're going to have to do some investigating to straighten out this mess.

Here's how one usually goes about it.

Agree to buy the gun.
Send dealer the payment and the name, address, and phone number of the transfer dealer.
Call dealer to ask if he contacted transfer dealer.
Call transfer dealer a day after he has been contacted to see if he mailed out his FFL.
A week after transfer dealer mails FFL, call dealer to see if he got it.
After the dealer receives the FFL he should ship the gun.

You should be able to transact the purchase in less than two weeks if you stay on top of everyone.

Good luck!
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Old February 15, 2002, 10:01 PM   #14
Willy
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graystar,
No offense, but you are spreading false information. There is no law that "The FFLs only need to exchange signed copies of their FFL licenses. " The only law applicable states that the party shipping the firearm interstate needs to ship to an FFL in the receiving state. No one in the transaction needs anyones FFL copy. It is just the most common way to have proof after the fact that the firearm was, in fact, shipped to an FFL holder. The person shipping the firearm does NOT need to be an FFL holder.

No matter what your dealer tells you or you hear on the web, read the frequently asked questions on the ATF websight concerning these issues.

And contrary to your scenario, in a transfer, I go by my dealers and get a signed copy of his FFL. I stick that in a FedEx envelope and I send it overnight with the funds, to the seller. It costs me $14 for the FedEX. Only $8 for 2 day air. Both ways gets me a tracking number.

Handguns I usually try to get the seller to do FedEx 2 Day and then I have the deal done in three days, if he ships quick on his end.


I think Demogorgo's mistake was not getting tracking on the shipment of his funds, no matter what the method. He sent a cash equivalent in the mail with no way to track or confirm delivery and he now knows why that is a bad idea.

The seller never cashed the money order, apparently. Why does everyone doubt that the mail lost the stuff? Happens all the time.

Spend $8 and 2nd day FedEx the guy another FFL copy and the funds and get the gun.

Why let this completely cloud your buying and vow to never do another deal on the web?

[Flame suit on]
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Old February 16, 2002, 04:13 AM   #15
graystar
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Willy

So...YOU'RE the one that took "Willy"! Bastard!

No offense taken, and no need for the flame suit either. This is how we distill information to get what is correct.

First, please note that I said "how one *usually* goes about it." I was not trying to imply that "this is how it must be done."

I'll address your correct assertions first:
True, you can just pick up the FFL and Fedex it with payment and note. This definitely will save a ton of time.

True, anyone can ship a gun to an FFL (except if, as in NY, the FFL has been burdened with the additional recordkeeping task of noting the authority under which the previous owner lawfully possessed the gun. Hard to do for a non-licensee..."right to keep and bear arms" just doesn't cut it for NYS, even though it should!)

True that the sender need not send his FFL to the receiver.

However:

FALSE, the receiving FFL *must* send a certified copy of his license to the sender.

FALSE, you may not ship second day. All carriers require firearms to go overnight. By law, you are required to inform the carrier in writing that you are shipping a firearm. So the only way to ship 2nd day is to not tell the carrier; a violation of law.

Lastly, I prefer to read the law, not the FAQ. You tend to get more correct info. However, all this is in the ATF FAQ.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
PART 178--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

Sec. 178.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.
A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary

Sec. 178.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped
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Old February 16, 2002, 07:37 PM   #16
Demogorgo
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Thanks for the clarification, guys. Before purchasing this item, I looked all over online for info like this but found nothing, so this is great to read.

My bank says that the money order was never chashed, so I called the dealer on the phone to double check and he claims to have never recieved the payment. While talking to him, I could detect that he doesn't care one way or another wether he sells this gun to me or not.

I got my money back on the MO, because it's clearly not going to be cashed no matter who has it. I'll just let this die and get the gun somewhere else. Thanks again for the advice, guys. I have learned a lot from this.
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Old February 18, 2002, 01:37 PM   #17
LIKTOSHOOT
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Graystar, your information on shipping firearms is incorrect. Please check before posting "FACTS" LTS
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Old February 18, 2002, 01:44 PM   #18
graystar
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LIKTOSHOOT

Okay then....what *are* the facts?
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Old February 18, 2002, 01:53 PM   #19
Zak
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Quote:
FALSE, you may not ship second day. All carriers require firearms to go overnight. By law, you are required to inform the carrier in writing that you are shipping a firearm. So the only way to ship 2nd day is to not tell the carrier; a violation of law.
If you're a private citizen, you may ship a rifle or shotgun through the mails--you can send the thing 4th class for all anyone cares.

If you're an FFL you can also ship a hangdun through the mails and again, you may do so via any service you want to.

Contract carriers are a different ball of wax--they can set the rules to whatever they want to. IIRC, UPS (might be Fedex) will let you get away with shipping a gun via their 2-day air service, but you'll have to talk to your local manager to determine that for sure.

It's also important to note that there are gun friendly, gun unfriendly, and gun ignortant shipping personnel out there. Some in the former group will let you ship a gun via UPS ground, while some in the second group will refuse to accept your firearm for shipment at all. The ignorant usually fall into one of the two extremes.

Oh, and you are completely correct: The receiving dealer MUST provide a signed copy of the FFL to whoever is shipping the gun.
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Old February 18, 2002, 02:16 PM   #20
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First, there is no law concerning time of shipping firearms. The carriers may make rules on shipping...but these are not laws and you cannot be prosecuted as such. Long-guns can be shipped via USPS or private common carrier. Handguns shipped using UPS require overnight (UPS THIEVES) and this may be what you are mixed up on. The theft loss was so great, that UPS claimed it was for the senders saftey....not the case, it was to curtail company theft. I ship all long-guns UPS Ground 3-5 days, handguns go USPS Priority Registered Mail (FFL) 3-5 days. Fed-Ex and UPS claim to require overnight shipping of handguns, but it simply a rule (theirs) and not the law, and this rule can be side stepped too. Regards LTS

Last edited by LIKTOSHOOT; February 18, 2002 at 03:17 PM.
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Old February 18, 2002, 09:01 PM   #21
Willy
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graystar,

Sorry, but I have to say you are wrong again. Just concentrating on handguns, I ship my handguns via 2 day all the time. LIKTOSHOOT is correct. The contract carriers make up the rules in this regard. There are no laws requiring that handguns go via overnight for contract carriers. You may remember that UPS has only required handguns go overnight for a short amount of time. I believe it was less than three years ago they came out with their "new" policy that required overnight shipping. I have heard rumors of many packages going over the fence in Georgia that were destined for Glock. LIKTOSHOOT is right that they had too many firearms stolen and UPS needed to protect our packages from their employees.

In addition, FedEx will allow 2 day air shipments on handguns. Just ask your station manager.

You are correct that the package contents must be declared, by law.

The section, Sec. 178.94, that you quote shows the second error you made, in its title; "Sales or deliveries between licensees. "

Demogorgo is a non-licensee. He is not required by law to obtain a copy of the recieving FFL's license. It is good practice to do so, so that you have verifiable proof after the fact, that you were shipping to a licensee, but it is not required by law as far as I have learned or have researched. If you have a cite I would like to see it.

O.K., no flame suit this time but I am going to go out and catch a crow, right now, in case I need it later after you find a cite. Of course, after having to eat crow often, like me, you get used to crow after a while. I like mine fried in peanut oil. It stays juicy that way, don't ya know. : )
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Old February 19, 2002, 08:03 PM   #22
graystar
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Willy and LIKTOSHOOT...

" LIKTOSHOOT is correct. The contract carriers make up the rules in this regard. There are no laws requiring that handguns go via overnight for contract carriers."

I think there was a misunderstanding. Please reread my post. I did not say that there is a law requiring handguns to go overnight. What I said was that there is a law requiring you to inform the carrier that you are shipping a firearm and that all carriers ship handguns overnight. *That* is wrong, as I was really only referring to UPS and FedEx. I don't know what every carrier's policy is.

"Sorry, but I have to say you are wrong again. Just concentrating on handguns, I ship my handguns via 2 day all the time."

Both UPS and Fedex will only ship a handgun overnight. That is their official policy. The person accepting them for two day shipping is risking his job. Unless, of course, he isn't told. Then the person shipping is violating the law.

" In addition, FedEx will allow 2 day air shipments on handguns. Just ask your station manager."

Fedex does NOT allow 2 day shipping on handguns. The station manager is risking his job if he knowingly accepts a handgun for 2 day shipping. This is speculation, but I would bet that, in this scenario, *someone* can be prosecuted for not informing the carrier, since FedEx/UPS proper is not aware of the firearm.

"The section, Sec. 178.94, that you quote shows the second error you made, in its title; "Sales or deliveries between licensees. "
Demogorgo is a non-licensee. He is not required by law to obtain a copy of the receiving FFL's license. It is good practice to do so, so that you have verifiable proof after the fact, that you were shipping to a licensee, but it is not required by law as far as I have learned or have researched. If you have a cite I would like to see it. "

This is another misunderstanding. If you recall the original post, the question of shipping was of one between two licensees, not of a non-licensee shipping to a licensee. In this instance, my quote is correct.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm having fun
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Old February 20, 2002, 10:21 AM   #23
LIKTOSHOOT
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Graystar Yep, fun. You may need to re-read your post again.
"FACT" you cannot ship firearms second day. "All" carriers require "all" firearms to be shipped overnight; or something to that effect. That is wrong and THAT is a fact. Tootles

LTS



"FALSE, you may not ship second day. All carriers require firearms to go overnight. By law, you are required to inform the carrier in writing that you are shipping a firearm. So the only way to ship 2nd day is to not tell the carrier; a violation of law."
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Old February 20, 2002, 11:51 AM   #24
graystar
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To that I must concede...again

In my last post I pointed out my reference to "all carriers" as being a mistake, as I was really only thinking of UPS and FedEx.

Well, if that was the only sticking point, I think we're done!

Demogorgo, I hope our discussion has made things crystal clear (LOL)
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Old February 20, 2002, 05:19 PM   #25
Willy
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graystar,
Actually it is nice to be back on The Firing Line because you can disagree with someone and they don't get all bent out of shape. In other words, I am having fun as well.

Your are correct, in the original question that it was a licensee to licensee transfer, my mistake, and you were also correct in the requirement that you stated for licensees needing a copy of the FFL.

When I use FedEx I usually walk in to one of two seperate FedEx stations around me and say, "I have a pistol and I want to ship it 2 day." They say "O.K." Heck, they usually won't even let me show them the FFL copy of the dealer I am shipping to, that I have. (I do get an FFL copy to cover myself.) After checking, I see that the official policy of FedEx is in fact overnight only on handguns. I guess when the rubber hits the road at my two FedEx stations, there is a "loose" interpretation of overnight. []
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