Inspect those cases boys and girls - Page 3

Brian Pfleuger · December 6, 2012, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. Guffey

Set the shoulder back?, Never set the shoulder back,...

I take that as an objection to setting back the shoulder.

mehavey · December 6, 2012, 04:11 PM

I love this place.....

F. Guffey · December 6, 2012, 05:07 PM

“Die threads are typically 1/14 pitch. That means an entire turn is 1/14th or 0.07 of an inch. If you go for .001 bump, it's hardly any additional turn at all, 1.5% of a turn, roughly’

Then comes the index marks and black marker.

1 Turn = .071429”, then comes the wild guesses, when will someone have an epiphany and discover the art of verifying. Verify, as in verifying an adjustment, instead of taking wild guesses in percentages of a turn or fractional turn in degree, simply go to the verifying tool, the feeler gage. Use a leaf from the feeler gage bundle to adjust the die off the shell holder, then secure the die with the lock ring, again, when securing the lock ring hold the die to prevent it from moving.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · December 6, 2012, 05:16 PM

Brian, forgive,

“I use 280 Remington cases for long 30/06 chambers, my Eddystone has a shoulder that is forward .011” of a go-gage length chamber, to form cases that fit with .002” clearance or to form field reject length cases I form (move back)the shoulder on the 280 Remington .036” by adjusting the die off the shell holder .014”, and yes, I have a forming die for the 30/06”.

F. Guffey

hounddawg · December 6, 2012, 11:32 PM

Well I have my full case resizeing die set set right now, used the feeler gage method.

Also one of Guffeys posts got me to thinking so I made up a .007 shim and put it on the bolt face and went through all my loaded ammo and previously fired cases that had been neck sized only and culled anything that would chamber. Sort of a jury rigged field gage for cases. No surprise that new unfired cases that had been full resized would not chamber at all with that shim. I would rather pull the bullet and powder and trash the case than risk a blown primer.

hounddawg · December 7, 2012, 02:34 PM

end of the story . I took it to the range shot 1 time, saw pressure signs on the primer. Recased the gun and will be pulling the powder and bullet from all the previously fired ammo. Those cases are now trash,unless I go through the hassle of fireforming them and I am not sure it would be safe to fireform at that. I will start again with fresh cases and work a load up from minimum. Moral of the story, never set head space using factory ammo, spend the money for a gage.

mehavey · December 7, 2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

"...saw pressure signs on the primer....."

Not trying to talk you into something, but since primers are notoriously bad indicators of pressure... what did you see?

hounddawg · December 8, 2012, 03:07 AM

cratering. 204 cases are cheap, a quarter each, cheap insurance. I have 250 or so new ones sitting on the shelf. These are Winchesters so I will work the load back from scratch, I enjoy doing load workups anyway, Tweak the powder in , then the COL, then play with action screw torques. makes me feel productive

F. Guffey · December 8, 2012, 08:13 AM

“Moral of the story, never set head space using factory ammo, spend the money for a gage”

You have a head space gage, more of a concern are the cases that chambered after you shimmed the bolt face .007”, meaning you spent the money for a gage and ‘it’ did not work.

Fire forming? Success is not built into fire forming, there is measure before and again after, it is important to know what to do with the difference between the before and after measurements. Had you been measuring the length of the fired cases you would have know the difference between unfired and fired cases was enough to cause the case to separate.

“...spend the money for a gage”, I will assume you are talking about a case length gage like the L. E. Wilson case length gage, to some the Wilson gage is a drop-in gage, others use their thumb nails, others use the sight gage, I prefer the straight edge with the feeler gage, it is possible to use a flat surface, stand the case up then lower the case gage onto the shoulder of the case ‘THEN!’ use a feeler gage to measure from the flat surface to the bottom of the gage.

Again, instruction from Douglas, when installing a barrel, include different methods, not all methods require the use of a gage unless the person understands the case is a gage, the person that understands the case is a gage and is familiar with a reloading press can make gages as long and or short as they choose providing the person installing the barrel knows how to measure the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder/datum.

F. Guffey

hounddawg · December 8, 2012, 09:56 AM

::::sigh:::: not sure how you came to the conclusion the gage did not work since I have not tried it with new brass that had never been fired in the barrel before I reset it. I take it to the range and have issues with the new brass then it would be fair to say I still have a problem

I am using a drop in GO gage, this time. It is same method I set my .308 and my .260 barrel both of which shoot wonderfully and have for over a thousand rounds combined. I am in the double digits reloading my Lapua .308 Palma cases with never any issue.

F. Guffey · December 8, 2012, 10:19 AM

forgive, the case length gage is referred to as being drop-in, the go-gage is used to check a chamber for go-gage length, I do not find it necessary to own one or the other, I make gages, I make gages to measure gages.

Today? I am going to make a gage that will measure the length of a 50 Cal. chamber, any 50 Cal. 2 different ways. I will not research Sammies ideal of a perfect chamber, because? Sammie is not sizing the cases.

F. Guffey

hounddawg · December 8, 2012, 11:18 AM

NP Guffy , sometimes these threads get convoluted and I am not much of a wordsmith anyway. English is my second language, hillbilly was my first

hounddawg · December 9, 2012, 05:22 PM

last post on this thread I promise

took it back to range this morning and while I did not have time to do a full load workup I went from 22.7 grains to 23.5 grains in .2 grain increments. Bullets were seated .020 off the lands at 2.280. Did 2 sets 5 shot groups with all loads and almost all groups were .4 inch = or - .01 or .02 center to center. Nothing truly great but no pressure signs at all and sub 1/2 inch groups from a home grown Stevens is nothing to complain about. I now pronounce this problem fixed but still going to continue to on load workups to see if I can find another holy grail of group size then work on the distance from lands and action screw torque to get it even better

December 6, 2012, 05:07 PM	#53
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	“Die threads are typically 1/14 pitch. That means an entire turn is 1/14th or 0.07 of an inch. If you go for .001 bump, it's hardly any additional turn at all, 1.5% of a turn, roughly’ Then comes the index marks and black marker. 1 Turn = .071429”, then comes the wild guesses, when will someone have an epiphany and discover the art of verifying. Verify, as in verifying an adjustment, instead of taking wild guesses in percentages of a turn or fractional turn in degree, simply go to the verifying tool, the feeler gage. Use a leaf from the feeler gage bundle to adjust the die off the shell holder, then secure the die with the lock ring, again, when securing the lock ring hold the die to prevent it from moving. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; December 6, 2012 at 05:20 PM.

December 6, 2012, 11:32 PM	#55
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	Well I have my full case resizeing die set set right now, used the feeler gage method. Also one of Guffeys posts got me to thinking so I made up a .007 shim and put it on the bolt face and went through all my loaded ammo and previously fired cases that had been neck sized only and culled anything that would chamber. Sort of a jury rigged field gage for cases. No surprise that new unfired cases that had been full resized would not chamber at all with that shim. I would rather pull the bullet and powder and trash the case than risk a blown primer. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

December 7, 2012, 02:34 PM	#56
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	end of the story . I took it to the range shot 1 time, saw pressure signs on the primer. Recased the gun and will be pulling the powder and bullet from all the previously fired ammo. Those cases are now trash,unless I go through the hassle of fireforming them and I am not sure it would be safe to fireform at that. I will start again with fresh cases and work a load up from minimum. Moral of the story, never set head space using factory ammo, spend the money for a gage. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; December 7, 2012 at 03:31 PM.

December 8, 2012, 03:07 AM	#58
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	cratering. 204 cases are cheap, a quarter each, cheap insurance. I have 250 or so new ones sitting on the shelf. These are Winchesters so I will work the load back from scratch, I enjoy doing load workups anyway, Tweak the powder in , then the COL, then play with action screw torques. makes me feel productive __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

December 8, 2012, 09:56 AM	#60
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	::::sigh:::: not sure how you came to the conclusion the gage did not work since I have not tried it with new brass that had never been fired in the barrel before I reset it. I take it to the range and have issues with the new brass then it would be fair to say I still have a problem I am using a drop in GO gage, this time. It is same method I set my .308 and my .260 barrel both of which shoot wonderfully and have for over a thousand rounds combined. I am in the double digits reloading my Lapua .308 Palma cases with never any issue. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; December 8, 2012 at 10:01 AM.

December 6, 2012, 04:11 PM	#52
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,883	I love this place.....

December 6, 2012, 05:16 PM	#54
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Brian, forgive, “I use 280 Remington cases for long 30/06 chambers, my Eddystone has a shoulder that is forward .011” of a go-gage length chamber, to form cases that fit with .002” clearance or to form field reject length cases I form (move back)the shoulder on the 280 Remington .036” by adjusting the die off the shell holder .014”, and yes, I have a forming die for the 30/06”. F. Guffey

December 8, 2012, 08:13 AM	#59
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	“Moral of the story, never set head space using factory ammo, spend the money for a gage” You have a head space gage, more of a concern are the cases that chambered after you shimmed the bolt face .007”, meaning you spent the money for a gage and ‘it’ did not work. Fire forming? Success is not built into fire forming, there is measure before and again after, it is important to know what to do with the difference between the before and after measurements. Had you been measuring the length of the fired cases you would have know the difference between unfired and fired cases was enough to cause the case to separate. “...spend the money for a gage”, I will assume you are talking about a case length gage like the L. E. Wilson case length gage, to some the Wilson gage is a drop-in gage, others use their thumb nails, others use the sight gage, I prefer the straight edge with the feeler gage, it is possible to use a flat surface, stand the case up then lower the case gage onto the shoulder of the case ‘THEN!’ use a feeler gage to measure from the flat surface to the bottom of the gage. Again, instruction from Douglas, when installing a barrel, include different methods, not all methods require the use of a gage unless the person understands the case is a gage, the person that understands the case is a gage and is familiar with a reloading press can make gages as long and or short as they choose providing the person installing the barrel knows how to measure the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder/datum. F. Guffey

December 8, 2012, 10:19 AM	#61
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	forgive, the case length gage is referred to as being drop-in, the go-gage is used to check a chamber for go-gage length, I do not find it necessary to own one or the other, I make gages, I make gages to measure gages. Today? I am going to make a gage that will measure the length of a 50 Cal. chamber, any 50 Cal. 2 different ways. I will not research Sammies ideal of a perfect chamber, because? Sammie is not sizing the cases. F. Guffey

December 8, 2012, 11:18 AM	#62
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	NP Guffy , sometimes these threads get convoluted and I am not much of a wordsmith anyway. English is my second language, hillbilly was my first __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

December 9, 2012, 05:22 PM	#63
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	last post on this thread I promise took it back to range this morning and while I did not have time to do a full load workup I went from 22.7 grains to 23.5 grains in .2 grain increments. Bullets were seated .020 off the lands at 2.280. Did 2 sets 5 shot groups with all loads and almost all groups were .4 inch = or - .01 or .02 center to center. Nothing truly great but no pressure signs at all and sub 1/2 inch groups from a home grown Stevens is nothing to complain about. I now pronounce this problem fixed but still going to continue to on load workups to see if I can find another holy grail of group size then work on the distance from lands and action screw torque to get it even better __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

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